Allright I have a couple of questions about some things I seem to struggle with.
1) First is the treasure per encounter table in the gmg, let’s take level 1 as a example.
A moderate encounter should give players 18gp, let’s say there are 12 of those in a level (this brings us to 960xp so close enough).
So 18 gp x 12 = 216 gp, then it says to add another 35gp if you build a entire level like this, that’s 251gp.
Now we are supposed to deduct the items from that so let’s say at level 1 ( 2x2nd, 2x 1st level permanent, 2x2nd and 3x1st level consumables) that’s going to be 135Gp.
So 251 - 135 =116 gp on top of the treasure.
If you look at treasure by level, the “ leftover” should be about 40gp, not 116, That to me is a huge discrepancy (almost 300%), even if we drop the 35 they tell us to putt extra on top we are still left with 81gp (200%) that’s a little better but still considering 1 moderate encounter is 18gp that about 4 encounters worth of extra money.
Granted I could throw in some extra xp for accomplishments etc to get a bit closer, but I wanted to use treasure per encounter because I thought it was gonna be less bookkeeping for me.
So how do you solve this?.
2) The campaign we started is a sandbox adventure starting in absalom, but I ran into a problem with the managerie ( Grand bazaar book)
They sell animal companions, but nowhere can I seem to find a price listing for these, and also you can only have 1 companion so do you have swap out your old one? Or does it just not come along if you go somewhere?.
Also I presume they sell mounts (animal not companion) but I can only find listings for horses , dogs etc.
What if my players want to ride a gecko or drake how would I go about putting a price on that ( seems to me a drake would be allot more expensive than a horse).
3) and as my last question, how do you guys go about filling the inventory of shops?, it seems very tedious to have to write down a exhaustive list.
And I also wonder about item levels, is my party makes more money because of the 1st issue I mentioned ( treasure per encounter) what’s keeping them from buying a item way above there level and breaking the game?.
To me it just seems wrong to have the shopkeepers only sell items from their level or lower, and was hoping that because of the money restrictions that would be a non issue but I doubt it.
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Most new GMs use pre-made Adventure Paths, where everything is already balanced (to an extent). This gets you more used to running a world.
Animal companions should be free. Uncommon or Rare ones should have some sort of cost, not necessarily of monetary value. For example, maybe they meet a strange creature on a quest to exterminate a monster, and instead of slaying it they befriend it through weeks of interactions.
There's no reason to have every single item allocated to a specific shop. Absalom is MASSIVE, if the players want something they can get it. Just say it takes them a day to shop for what they need. As for level requirements, you can easily do away with them, or you can make an in world explanation for why the item the want isn't available. Absalom being the center of the world would likely have items up to level 20 available at all times, but beyond the cost issues shopkeeps might not sell them to greenhorns to keep them from hurting themselves.
Being a GM is all about telling a story. You don't want to be constantly pausing to look up rules. If you think it's cool then let the players do it.
Also speaking of Adventure Paths, the Humble Bundle Strength of Thousands package is still available here.
Most new GMs use pre-made Adventure Paths, where everything is already balanced (to an extent). This gets you more used to running a world.
Animal companions should be free. Uncommon or Rare ones should have some sort of cost, not necessarily of monetary value. For example, maybe they meet a strange creature on a quest to exterminate a monster, and instead of slaying it they befriend it through weeks of interactions.
There's no reason to have every single item allocated to a specific shop. Absalom is MASSIVE, if the players want something they can get it. Just say it takes them a day to shop for what they need. As for level requirements, you can easily do away with them, or you can make an in world explanation for why the item the want isn't available. Absalom being the center of the world would likely have items up to level 20 available at all times, but beyond the cost issues shopkeeps might not sell them to greenhorns to keep them from hurting themselves.
Being a GM is all about telling a story. You don't want to be constantly pausing to look up rules. If you think it's cool then let the players do it.
Also speaking of Adventure Paths, the Humble Bundle Strength of Thousands package is still available here.
I understand that playing a adventure path would be allot easier, but my players wanted a sandbox game so that’s what I am trying to provide them with.
I know animal animal companions should be free but then why have a shop (in grand bazaar book)that sells them?, giving things away for free seems like bad business practice to me.
Plus I can figure out how to calculate the monetary value of different mounts.
I want all items of different levels to just be available, and I think normally this wouldn’t be a issue but if I use the treasure by encounter table the players get allot of extra gold.
Let’s say as a example (and I will leave items out of since I would deduct them from the total) a first level small dungeon with 2 moderate and 1 severe encounter that would total to 280xp .
If I would follow the treasure per level logic that would amount to 49 gp.
If I follow the treasure per encounter logic that would be 58 gp.
That’s a 9 gp difference over these 3 encounters, so by the end of a level you would earn 59 gp more, And I dont have to tell you that 59gp for a first level party is allot of money to be throwing around and would tip the scales fast.
So my only option will be doing the math myself which is very cumbersome
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Allright I have a couple of questions about some things I seem to struggle with.
1) First is the treasure per encounter table in the gmg, let’s take level 1 as a example.
A moderate encounter should give players 18gp, let’s say there are 12 of those in a level (this brings us to 960xp so close enough).
So 18 gp x 12 = 216 gp, then it says to add another 35gp if you build a entire level like this, that’s 251gp.
Now we are supposed to deduct the items from that so let’s say at level 1 ( 2x2nd, 2x 1st level permanent, 2x2nd and 3x1st level consumables) that’s going to be 135Gp.
So 251 - 135 =116 gp on top of the treasure.
If you look at treasure by level, the “ leftover” should be about 40gp, not 116, That to me is a huge discrepancy (almost 300%), even if we drop the 35 they tell us to putt extra on top we are still left with 81gp (200%) that’s a little better but still considering 1 moderate encounter is 18gp that about 4 encounters worth of extra money.
Granted I could throw in some extra xp for accomplishments etc to get a bit closer, but I wanted to use treasure per encounter because I thought it was gonna be less bookkeeping for me.
So how do you solve this?.
Interesting, you're correct that the math (with what little explanation there is there) doesn't add up.
The "total" left column is the same as the table in the CRB, but if you divide that proportional to each encounter's XP contribution in the level, you'd get a lot lower numbers than in the GMG table.
I'm willing to believe that the "total" left column is correct, it looks plausible compared to the items in CRB table 10-9.
Now, one possible explanation for this is that if you split treasure across encounters like this, you get fewer "core" items that players want, like +1 striking weapons. They'll end up selling more items for 50% instead of keeping them for essentially full value; therefore more total worth is needed. Because the game is quite uphill if you can't get those core items.
How would I go about it?
I'd just spreadsheet the table myself. Take the "total" column as a starting point and for each of the other columns, determine what fraction one of those encounters is towards a whole level. For example, a Severe 120XP encounter is 120/1000 = 0.12 of a level's XP, therefore a level 1 Severe encounter should be about 0.12 * 175gp = 21gp.
Now, table 10-9 ensures a lot of permanent items and the GMG further cautions the GM to make sure most of those are actually relevant and not resale fodder. So if I'm using this approach, I'd consider any item likely to be sold to not be worth full budget. So a level 2 item the PCs will almost certainly sell, is worth only say, half it's buying price when allocating it as treasure.
2) The campaign we started is a sandbox adventure starting in absalom, but I ran into a problem with the managerie ( Grand bazaar book)
They sell animal companions, but nowhere can I seem to find a price listing for these, and also you can only have 1 companion so do you have swap out your old one? Or does it just not come along if you go somewhere?.
Also I presume they sell mounts (animal not companion) but I can only find listings for horses , dogs etc.
What if my players want to ride a gecko or drake how would I go about putting a price on that ( seems to me a drake would be allot more expensive than a horse).
Consider:
- The player has to pay for the companion with class feats.- The unusual companions are maybe more interesting, but not really more powerful than the common ones.
So I don't think they should cost a lot of money, to the point where the PC is really worse off for it because they couldn't afford something else important like a striking weapon by level 4.
However, you do want the unusual companions to feel actually unusual, so having to do a bit more work to get them is certainly justified. Maybe a small side quest that takes half a game session? And a token amount of gold? Or maybe a significant amount of gold but Coincidence! there's this sidequest where you can instead help the shopkeep and you get a big discount?
That way, special stays special, but the player isn't mechanically punished for wanting to do something interesting.
3) and as my last question, how do you guys go about filling the inventory of shops?, it seems very tedious to have to write down a exhaustive list.
And I also wonder about item levels, is my party makes more money because of the 1st issue I mentioned ( treasure per encounter) what’s keeping them from buying a item way above there level and breaking the game?.
To me it just seems wrong to have the shopkeepers only sell items from their level or lower, and was hoping that because of the money restrictions that would be a non issue but I doubt it.
I won't make exhaustive lists because it's exhausting and because Absalom is the market at the center of the world. If it's not in one shop, it'll be in another.
Rather, I'd come up with a few eye-catching items that give a vibe to the shop. If the player asks for something else specific, I'd consider if it's likely that this shop might have it, based on theme. And then roll a d20. High is good, it's there. On a so-so result the shopkeep can get it with some time, or knows who else might have it.
On the whole, money restrictions would work a bit, because you earn so much more money at higher levels. So saving up pennies now but needing to trudge through lots of easy encounters because you're undergeared, might be worse than just buying the best you can afford directly and taking on bigger fights that earn more money.
But expect this to go sideways sometimes. It's very attractive to just focus intensely on "power" items like fundamental runes. Getting a Striking rune at level 2 would be brutal. So if everyone's putting their money towards that, it makes shopping a bit boring because nobody wants "fluff" items. The normal loot/item level system reduces that tendency, although not totally.
It might not be so bad to keep item level restrictions around, with a bit of "don't overthink this" OOC to your players. Just because it's not 100% sandbox realistic, doesn't mean it's not ultimately better for your campaign.
Allright I have a couple of questions about some things I seem to struggle with.
1) First is the treasure per encounter table in the gmg, let’s take level 1 as a example.
A moderate encounter should give players 18gp, let’s say there are 12 of those in a level (this brings us to 960xp so close enough).
So 18 gp x 12 = 216 gp, then it says to add another 35gp if you build a entire level like this, that’s 251gp.
Now we are supposed to deduct the items from that so let’s say at level 1 ( 2x2nd, 2x 1st level permanent, 2x2nd and 3x1st level consumables) that’s going to be 135Gp.
So 251 - 135 =116 gp on top of the treasure.
If you look at treasure by level, the “ leftover” should be about 40gp, not 116, That to me is a huge discrepancy (almost 300%), even if we drop the 35 they tell us to putt extra on top we are still left with 81gp (200%) that’s a little better but still considering 1 moderate encounter is 18gp that about 4 encounters worth of extra money.
Granted I could throw in some extra xp for accomplishments etc to get a bit closer, but I wanted to use treasure per encounter because I thought it was gonna be less bookkeeping for me.
So how do you solve this?.
Interesting, you're correct that the math (with what little explanation there is there) doesn't add up.
The "total" left column is the same as the table in the CRB, but if you divide that proportional to each encounter's XP contribution in the level, you'd get a lot lower numbers than in the GMG table.
I'm willing to believe that the "total" left column is correct, it looks plausible compared to the items in CRB table 10-9.
Now, one possible explanation for this is that if you split treasure across encounters like this, you get fewer "core" items that players want, like +1 striking weapons. They'll end up selling more items for 50% instead of keeping them for essentially full value; therefore more total worth is needed. Because the game is quite uphill if you can't get those core items....
You are absolutely right about the shops, And doing it like that would speed up the process quite nicely, thank you for the input.
About the treasure problem, I went back and read trough all the rules thoroughly and saw I overlooked something.
Per game session you are supposed to give out probably 1 to 2 moderate accomplishment awards (30xp) a couple of minor (10xp) and maybe 1 major (80xp) if called for.
So averaging it out at let’s say 60 xp per session and let’s say each session would see them get 200 Xp the math would be , 180gp over a level, so that’s a hell of allot closer, I can live with a 5 gp difference.
As for buying mounts, a horse (lvl 1 animal) costs 8gp, a warhorse (lvl 2 animal) costs 30gp.
So I took a look at permanent magic item prices in the GMG, and level 1 is 10-20gp, lvl 2 25-30 gp.
Sooooo I figured to use that, and just pick the low end unless it’s a more rare animal.
So using that logic let’s say someone wants to buy a dire wolf (lvl 3 common animal) that would be 45gp which seems reasonable to me and adds a system for buying all different kinds of mounts without complicating it with extra rules ;)
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A useful tool for shop inventory can be found via Wanderer’s Guide App using the GM Tools section. In there, you choose the level of the shop as well as any price increase or decrease (done by percentage) and it will randomly stock a store for you.
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Have you considered using the automatic bonus progression? I've found I care a lot less about counting the coppers I give players with it. I don't need to worry about them being behind the math curve if I am stingy, or getting too far ahead of it if I'm overly generous.
Have you considered using the automatic bonus progression? I've found I care a lot less about counting the coppers I give players with it. I don't need to worry about them being behind the math curve if I am stingy, or getting too far ahead of it if I'm overly generous.
I will be sure to take a look at it, thanks ;)
A useful tool for shop inventory can be found via Wanderer’s Guide App using the GM Tools section. In there, you choose the level of the shop as well as any price increase or decrease (done by percentage) and it will randomly stock a store for you.
Seems handy indeed, thanks :)