Paladin & amnesiac villain, how does it work?

[Chyrone]

Good day.

The situation:
A villain the team knows, originally very much chaotic evil, is suffering from amnesia. Current events have left said villain behave lawfully and respectful towards others. (In effect LN/LG)

Party activates anti evil buffs and the paladin declares smite evil, when they are about to confront them.

Do the buffs and smite evil have any effect, with the amnesiac persona being completely different in alignment in views and behavior?

Or does their original personality count for the measures to have effect?

[Phoebus Alexandros]

Alignment change is alignment change. The question isn’t whether the amnesiac former villain can be targeted by Smite Evil; they can’t—because they’re no longer evil. The question is how they would react to their memories coming back… and the PCs attacking the villain while denouncing them for their past sins could be a trigger for that. Would the former villain be outraged by who they were, seek a truce with the PCs, and stay on the righteous path? Or would they return to a life of wrong-doing?

[AwesomenessDog]

Actually, being an amnesiac wouldn't change your alignment, for a rules standpoint. (Obv anyone can say their world is different, but piazo/PF does have a default setting.) Doing actions against your will (e.g. suggestion/dominate) does not change the moral/alignment effect of those actions. There are plenty of cases in golarion lore of characters being forced by vampires or succubi, or whatever to act against their own moral codes and falling from grace because of it; there is also even a case of an evil creature (potentially) becoming good via domination in the Wrath of the Righteous AP. But also an otherwise good creature can be in the process of committing or even seriously contemplating committing an evil act and detect as evil in the moment (or vice versa, and same for L/C), despite their alignment not yet actually changing.

There is also a psychological standpoint of people with amnesia generally don't behave differently to their lucid selves in periods of time they can't later remember (aside from potentially having this or that information they no longer have after the episode). Then there is the fact that Golarion's moral system is highly deontic, with several actions that are good/evil and/or lawful/chaotic regardless of the intent or outcome of the action (e.g. creating undead is always evil).

So there are several ways to make such a villain be L/NG (at least in Golarion's moral system) by playing with the edges of what is evil, who is harmed, who might be controlling them to act against their villainous tendencies (and also probably even making them forget the good they are doing, etc. And beyond that, there is also the court of public opinion to consider, as the layman without personal access to at will alignment detection (and even many weaker clergy) will be very easy to misdirect and convince that something that is evil is not so evil (and again vice versa and for L/C). Perhaps one of the most insidious things powerful and evil people can and often do, in mythology and in real life, is convince people that what is right is wrong and what is wrong is right.

[Chyrone]

Phoebus Alexandros wrote:

The question is how they would react to their memories coming back… and the PCs attacking the villain while denouncing them for their past sins could be a trigger for that. Would the former villain be outraged by who they were, seek a truce with the PCs, and stay on the righteous path? Or would they return to a life of wrong-doing?

They'd be very much conflicted, i'd imagine. They'd have been living 2 lives by then. Of which, in essence, the 2nd life was not an undercover act, but a new 'them' altogether.

AwesomenessDog wrote:

There is also a psychological standpoint of people with amnesia generally don't behave differently to their lucid selves in periods of time they can't later remember (aside from potentially having this or that information they no longer have after the episode).

In other words, a [insert alignment] person with amnesia does not recall the past, but do maintain their ways of handling situations?

The current situation is complete amnesia, of their whole life.

AwesomenessDog wrote:

Perhaps one of the most insidious things powerful and evil people can and often do, in mythology and in real life, is convince people that what is right is wrong and what is wrong is right.

True. :/

[Phoebus Alexandros]

AwesomenessDog wrote:

Very good points.

I assumed that Chyrone’s NPC has, in fact, changed their alignment. That is, I’m assuming that either Chyrone takes the relaxed approach to alignment change described in the Core Rulebook… or that, behind the scenes, the NPC went through the Alignment Change steps outlined in Ultimate Campaign, pg. 134.

[Chyrone]

The villain is currently functioning as a sleeper agent, courtesy of their magically very powerful master.

The amnesia is lifted only by a McGuffin's proximity.

[Phoebus Alexandros]

There are already feats and spells that can disguise a creature’s alignment and protect them from being targeted on the basis of their alignment, so I think the villain in question would be safe, regardless.

[Diego Rossi]

Being forced (by domination or similar effects) to do evil acts don't change your alignment.
Being charmed/suggested into an evil act can change it, as they leave a level of free will (if your best friend asks you to slay a child hopefully you will say no).
Being influenced by non-magical means into evil acts can and will change your alignment.

[The Purity of Violence]

If you go by Strange Aeons then PF1 fantasy amnesia does change your alignment. It also reduces you to first level because you have forgotten how to use all your class abilities, so it probably doesn't matter if smite evil works or not, because a 1st level character is going to get one-shoted.

[AwesomenessDog]

Chyrone wrote:

AwesomenessDog wrote:

There is also a psychological standpoint of people with amnesia generally don't behave differently to their lucid selves in periods of time they can't later remember (aside from potentially having this or that information they no longer have after the episode).

In other words, a [insert alignment] person with amnesia does not recall the past, but do maintain their ways of handling situations?

The current situation is complete amnesia, of their whole life.

Yes, their actions are still their own, even if they don't remember them, in the absence of anything else that would otherwise influence their actions. However, anything that has the magical capability to wipe someone's memory for significant portions of their life also does likely have the capacity to directly influence their actions. In either case, compulsion or no, the alignment effect/changes sticks until they have been "worked off."

Diego Rossi wrote:

Being forced (by domination or similar effects) to do evil acts don't change your alignment.

Being charmed/suggested into an evil act can change it, as they leave a level of free will (if your best friend asks you to slay a child hopefully you will say no).
Being influenced by non-magical means into evil acts can and will change your alignment.

The Absolution/Atonement spell says otherwise:

Absolution wrote:

Absolution ends all charm or compulsion [read dominate] effects affecting the target (including harmless compulsions, such as heroism) as per break enchantment. If the target was forced to perform any actions contrary to his alignment, monk vows, paladin oath, or similar code of conduct by that charm or compulsion effect, that action doesn’t cause him to lose access to class abilities, including divine spellcasting.

Unlike an atonement spell, absolution can’t reverse alignment change or the effects of willing transgressions, induce a creature to change its alignment, or restore class abilities lost because of misdeeds performed in the past. Absolution automatically works if the caster and the target share the same alignment or the same patron deity. If they don’t, but their alignments are within one step of each other, absolution has a 5% chance of success per caster level. If neither of these is true, the spell automatically fails.

The last part about "can't... restore class abilities lost because of misdeeds performed in the past" is a bit confusing considering that those actions are inherently in the past (but maybe it means past as in not current ongoing compulsion), but it is certainly able to restore an unwilling alignment shift.

[Diego Rossi]

CRB wrote:

Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

CRB wrote:

An atonement spell may be necessary to repair damage done by alignment changes arising from involuntary sources or momentary lapses in personality.

CRB wrote:

Compulsion: A compulsion spell forces the subject to act in some manner or changes the way its mind works. Some compulsion spells determine the subject’s actions or the effects on the subject, others allow you to determine the subject’s actions when you cast the spell, and still others give you ongoing control over the subject.

The rules aren't completely coherent, but my read is as above:

- something that completely controls you without leaving any chance to act differently (barring a successful save) will not change your alignment (being controlled for months or years and constantly doing activities you despise can damage your mind and that can change your alignment, but that is way beyond what PCs will experience in normal games);

- something that suggests actions (charm person, suggestion, etc.) can change your alignment if you follow the suggestion (charm person means that you treat the guy that charmed you as your best friend, if my best friend asks me to kill a child I will question him. If he says the child is possessed by a demon and I have a good alignment I will try other solutions before killing). If I am duped into taking an evil action with the help of those spells I will have to search for Absolution if I violated my code of conduct. People without a Code of Conduct can clear their conscience even without the spells by doing acts of repayment and by penitence;

- if I did an evil act because I was duped, but without the use of spells or magical effects that override my will, I will have to Atone, and possibly I will have to do some act of repentance and repayment besides receiving the spell.

[Pizza Lord]

If the villain is no longer CE, then effects that depend on being CE won't work. Whether the villain has amnesia or remembers their past deeds or not isn't the issue. The issue is whether their new, current ethos or philosophy and actions have been in action long enough to set their alignment somewhere else, whether it be LG, NG, or just N.

Here you have a person that is CE but 'forgets' and doesn't realize he's CE and, when he encounters a situation in his amnesiac state, for some reason does not act in a CE way and instead acts in a LG way. As pointed out, this is not a normal way of functioning, but Pathfinder amnesia is not clinical, real world amnesia, it's Hollywood movie amnesia. So maybe the cause of the amnesia also has some influencing effects, like a suggestion to do things a certain way. These can cause alignment shifts over time. What matters is if enough time and actions have occurred before the PC arrives.

Whether a person remembers their past deeds or not has no bearing on their current alignment. You can be a horrible person and become a good person. That does not mean you forget or ignore the things you did in your past. Most of the time you have to confront them and such people have to live with the memories of actions that they now find abhorrent, when before, while they were horrible people, they could sleep like a baby and look at themselves in the mirror just fine.

It would be no different here if a CE person just woke up one day and, chaotically, decided they didn't like the way they were living and decided to become good. Likely it would start with a shift towards CG rather than straight to LG. The key here is that they can't just wake up and say, "I'm Lawful Good today." (Well, they can say it). They will have to do things and take actions that are good to shift them from evil, likely becoming CN first, then into CG, etc.

So if the amnesiac villain has actually been doing good or lawful deeds and has had enough time, then they may in fact not count as evil or chaotic at the particular time the paladin arrives, whether they've shifted completely to Lawful Good in actuality (despite doing Lawful Good actions, it still takes time to get there).

[2bz2p]

The Vigilante class allows for the possibility of one character having two alignments depending which personae they are using. I'm not sure you can call someone with "complete amnesia" anything but a helpless baby. They would not even know how to speak. In practice, the word "amnesia" means having lost some memories or faculties, not all. A complete loss of identity may affect in a sort of split personality where one is hidden from the other (until the other emerges) and I think it totally within the GM's reign, even by RAW. But, for a mechanic, use the Duel Identity class feature from the Vigilante and let that be your guide!

[Temperans]

Maybe amnesia by itself doesn't cause a change in personality, but trauma can and does cause a whole lot of problems.

Just like a person can snap and become the worst possible. A person could realize the error of their way. Amnesia makes the whole thing easier by removing the past experience that may be holding back the new personality.