A Cleric with Merciful Healer Archetype takes the Versatile Channeler feat allowing them to channel negative energy as well as positive energy. They then take the Soul Warden prestige class.
A player asked about making this in a game. They had a couple of questions.
First can the cleric channel negative energy at all?
My ruling was as follows: The merciful healer archetype bars the cleric from harming undead with channel energy in exchange for some additional benefits of healing.
Nothing prevents the cleric from taking Versatile Channeler to channel negative energy but the archetype's restriction would still apply. They could heal undead with it, harm living creatures with it, or use it as a prerequisite for a feat like Command Undead. It seems like the cleric's church hierarchy might question them about that but there is nothing in the rules that prevent it.
The second question was whether the Soul Warden prestige class would add 1d6 to their channel energy to damage undead roll or whether they would stack their class and prestige class levels to determine the damage.
My ruling was as follows: The text is clear, they gain 1d6 Channel Damage at the first level of the prestige class or they calculate your damage dice by taking the class level in a class that channels energy and stacking it with the Soul Warden. So a cleric 5/soul warden 1 would still channel 3d6 damage against undead rather than 4d6 and a cleric 5/soul warden 1 wo channels positive energy but has the versatile channeler feat would do damage as a cleric of two levels lower, 2d6.
Specifically regarding Soul Warden and Merciful Healer, Soul Warden grants the cleric the power to harm undead which the archetype prohibits. In that case the cleric does not have the ability to channel damage against undead as a cleric and would only gain 1d6 channel damage as the prestige class. However the channel damage from Soul Warden and the channel positive energy from cleric class features would be independent unless the cleric dropped the archetype through retraining.
Do you think that my rulings are fair. If you interpret them differently, please explain your reasoning.
So you can only take versatile channel if your player's character is LN/TN/CN as well as their god. If either is any shade of Good or Evil, they do not qualify for VC. However, because of the way Merciful healer says "you must channel positive" this overrides the base (and therefore VC), as even evil clerics worshipping evil deities can have the healing domain and therefore qualify for this archetype. So the feat is wasted, if not unqualifiable as the intent of the prerequisites is that you even have a choice of channeling positive or negative when you made the character. The character can only channel positive energy to heal living creatures.
Soul Warden levels would just be treated as additional levels for channel energy in normal circumstances, but as they are mutually exclusive in their use with Merciful Healer, you would just treat it as a secondary option using the same uses per day and without stacking damage (a Merciful Healer 5/Soul Warden 1 could do 3d6 to heal allies or 1d6 to damage undead) and with the same overall DC. This is because the MH has 0d6 for damaging undead and the SW has 0d6 for healing living.
It's really a bad combo, and I have no idea why they would want to go with versatile channeler and Merciful Healer over just an unarchetyped cleric. The only real benefit of MH is to get some bonus healing and AoE mercy effects with your channeling which you won't be doing anyway if your channels go to damaging undead.
Note: This feat only applies to necromancers, neutral clerics who worship neutral deities, or neutral clerics who do not worship a deity—characters who have the channel energy class ability and have to make a choice to channel positive or negative energy at 1st level. Clerics whose alignment or deity makes this choice for them cannot select this feat.
Since the Archetype removes the choice, the character does not qualify for Versatile Channeler. Even if they do qualify for the feat, you cannot actually channel negative energy as the archetype specifically states they must channel positive energy. Soul Warden also specifies that you only channel positive energy so that still would not give you the ability to channel negative energy. Soul Warden does not actually have the Channel Energy class feature; they have the Channel Damage class feature that functions like channel energy and stacks with levels in a class that grants channel energy for the purpose of determining the number of damage dice his channel energy does to undead. This combination simply does not work.
If you want to take versatile channeler with soul warden ditch the archetype.
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So you can only take versatile channel if your player's character is LN/TN/CN as well as their god. If either is any shade of Good or Evil, they do not qualify for VC. However, because of the way Merciful healer says "you must channel positive" this overrides the base (and therefore VC), as even evil clerics worshipping evil deities can have the healing domain and therefore qualify for this archetype. So the feat is wasted, if not unqualifiable as the intent of the prerequisites is that you even have a choice of channeling positive or negative when you made the character. The character can only channel positive energy to heal living creatures.
Hold on a sec, are you suggesting that this archetype would give an evil cleric of an evil deity the ability to channel positive to heal? I think you are reading the archetype wrong.
A merciful healer must choose the Healing domain. She does not gain a second domain. If the cleric worships a deity, that deity must be one that grants the Healing domain. A merciful healer must channel positive energy.
You must worship a deity with the healing domain. You must choose the healing domain. You must channel positive.
Those are all limitations on who can take the archetype, not abilities of the archetype.
Beelafon is correct that you have to be at least neutral and cannot worship an evil god. Since the char4acter wants to take versatile channeler which means they have to be neutral and worship a neutral good it was probably other looked. There are so many reasons this does not work it is easy to miss one.
Not true, there are evil gods with the healing domain: if you worshipped Lorcan, you could still channel positive energy by the wording of the archetype. The channel energy ability is altered to force you into channeling positive energy (only to heal living things) regardless of your and your god's alignment.
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Not true, there are evil gods with the healing domain: if you worshipped Lorcan, you could still channel positive energy by the wording of the archetype. The channel energy ability is altered to force you into channeling positive energy (only to heal living things) regardless of your and your god's alignment.
The archetype doesn’t alter the channeling options for clerics of evil deities. They can still only channel negative, which in turn means they are not eligible for the archetype. Here’s the text again:
merciful healer must choose the Healing domain. She does not gain a second domain. If the cleric worships a deity, that deity must be one that grants the Healing domain. A merciful healer must channel positive energy.
If I take your argument (a merciful healer must channel positive energy and therefore she can channel positive regardless of what kind of energy she is normally eligible for) then I can extend it to “a merciful healer must worship a deity that grants the healing domain and therefore she gets the healing domain regardless of what domains her deity normally grants.”
That’s clearly not how it works.
It says "Works as X except for Y". That except for Y is forcing you into positive energy to heal only, and is a specific over general case.
And that is clearly how it works because the archetype also alters domains to specifically only give you the healing domain (no second) and to only worship a god that gives that domain.
Willing Healer: A merciful healer must choose the Healing domain. She does not gain a second domain. If the cleric worships a deity, that deity must be one that grants the Healing domain. A merciful healer must channel positive energy.
It says "Works as X except for Y".
No it doesn't. It says "A merciful healer must channel positive energy." There is no "except" part. There is no "you channel positive energy regardless of your deity or alignment". Contrast how the MAC makes you have the war blessing.
What you're doing is like saying a fair ride with a "you must be this tall to ride" sign magically makes short people/kids taller if they ride on it.
As the cleric ability, save that a merciful healer must channel positive energy, and when she does, she cannot choose to target undead
I don't know how else you understand "as X save for Y" but that's what it is. And when you combine the previous ability that alters your domain regardless of what your god's alignment is, except that the god must have the healing domain (a non-good-exclusive domain), absolutely do in fact get forced into having just possitive healing channel energy, regardless of your or your god's alignment.
I don't think we are all reading the same thing. Here's the archetype for reference.
I have to agree with Derklord on this. The archetype is not altering channel energy it is specifying a restriction.
It doesn't say you must choose to channel positive energy as if there was a choice, it says you must as in you have no choice, it's what is given to you. It then clarifies a further restriction over how channeling positive energy works, but the purpose of the archetype isn't to strip Evil clerics with the healing domain of channel energy in general, it's just to focus on and only be healing living things with channel.
It also does not say that it allows an evil cleric or a neutral cleric of an evil god to channel positive energy. When an archetype adds an ability that the character does not already have it clearly states that. There is no mention of an evil cleric being able to channel positive energy, so they do not gain it.
True Healer (Su): At 8th level, when a merciful healer channels holy energy, she can choose to apply the benefits of merciful healing or to reroll any 1s when determining how much damage she heals with the holy energy. She must choose which benefit to take before she rolls to see how much damage she heals.
True healer also specifies that the merciful healer is channeling holy energy. I have never seen an instance when an evil cleric can use any kind of holy spell, or ability. Every instance I have seen outside a couple of poorly written third-party material specifies when an evil cleric cast or uses an ability it is unholy or profane.
As the cleric ability, save that a merciful healer must channel positive energy, and when she does, she cannot choose to target undeadI don't know how else you understand "as X save for Y" but that's what it is.
- First, you yourself have quoted where it says "A merciful healer must channel positive energy.", and it doesn't matter what other, similar requirements exist, you must fulfill that one.
Second, "As the cleric ability, save that a merciful healer must channel positive energy" means you follow all the rules not explicitly overridden, which including the rules what kind of energy you're allowed to channel.
It doesn't say you must choose to channel positive energy as if there was a choice, it says you must as in you have no choice, it's what is given to you.
No, it doesn't. Stop making up things just so you don't have to own it to the fact that you were wrong.
Also, it couldn't say "you must choose to channel positive energy", because good Clerics don't have a choice.
As the cleric ability, save that a merciful healer must channel positive energy, and when she does, she cannot choose to target undeadI don't know how else you understand "as X save for Y" but that's what it is.First, you yourself have quoted where it says "A merciful healer must channel positive energy.", and it doesn't matter what other, similar requirements exist, you must fulfill that one.
Second, "As the cleric ability, save that a merciful healer must channel positive energy" means you follow all the rules not explicitly overridden, which including the rules what kind of energy you're allowed to channel.
Right, I said that the archetype forces you into channeling positive energy regardless of your alignment, because it's ability literally says that, and because there are ways for you to (without the archetype) channel negative energy and still qualify for the archetype. This requirement is easily fulfillable once you realize you are altering the base channel energy rules to remove a selection and force a reduced utility positive energy. If this was not the case, the archetype could have said "you cannot be evil or worship an evil god" to prevent this issue, but they didn't.
Wait, seriously? How is "[you] must channel positive energy" not literally overriding a choice based on deity alignment? That's the only part of the normal channel rules that part of the sentence could be addressing, and then it goes on to further stipulate you also cannot harm undead. It is literally telling you what you exact channeling looks like regardless of the normal deity limitations (that again it already accounts for in the previous ability).
It doesn't say you must choose to channel positive energy as if there was a choice, it says you must as in you have no choice, it's what is given to you.No, it doesn't. Stop making up things just so you don't have to own it to the fact that you were wrong.
Also, it couldn't say "you must choose to channel positive energy", because good Clerics don't have a choice.
I'm sorry, this simply a dumb argument. It literally tells you what you get, you're the one not owning that. In world a good cleric doesn't have a choice, but you the player have a choice in your own alignment and your deity selection. This is still an overriding part of the normal rules that is special to this archetype.
It also does not say that it allows an evil cleric or a neutral cleric of an evil god to channel positive energy. When an archetype adds an ability that the character does not already have it clearly states that. There is no mention of an evil cleric being able to channel positive energy, so they do not gain it.
True Healer (Su): At 8th level, when a merciful healer channels holy energy, she can choose to apply the benefits of merciful healing or to reroll any 1s when determining how much damage she heals with the holy energy. She must choose which benefit to take before she rolls to see how much damage she heals.
True healer also specifies that the merciful healer is channeling holy energy. I have never seen an instance when an evil cleric can use any kind of holy spell, or ability. Every instance I have seen outside a couple of poorly written third-party material specifies when an evil cleric cast or uses an ability it is unholy or profane.
It isn't adding anything, it is changing something and does very clearly state what and how it changes. It mentions X conditions to take the archetype, and then it says that every cleric of the archetype channels positive energy.
Holy vs positive energy is a meaningless distinction. "Holy energy" is a damage type for certain spells like holy smite, but it's clearly not doing damage. Again, if the intent was only good/neutral clerics could take this, it would say that clerics of evil gods that qualify (have the healing domain) are excluded or something similar. We can also probably each name many instances of paizo scuffing their own wording, and using incorrect terms, especially when they start in one ability calling it positive energy and suddenly switch to holy energy in a second ability.
It literally tells you what you get
Are you seriously just now telling me that "you must have X" gives you something? And have the audacity to use the word "literally" to claim that?
Wow. Just wow. Your level of denying reality is unmatched.
First it's not "must have", it's "must do". Second, yes, you are going from theoretically having an option between X and Y based on some other specific case details, and now only getting X regardless of case, so yes, it is "literally" giving you that. Third, for an archetype that makes no stipulation about evil not being allowed, to just lose an entire class feature due to strict legalese reading of a single word is ridiculous.
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AwesomenessDog, the archetype doesn't give you the ability to override the normal channeling limitations. You must be able to channel positive energy to take it. That is a requirement to take the archetype, not an effect of the archetype.
If an archetype says: "a Conan the Barbarian must have a strength and constitution values of 18", you would allow a weakling with Str and Con 7 to take it and raise the stat to 18 automatically?
It doesn't say "must have", it says "must [do X]". Have is a prerequisite of entry. There are no must haves regarding a channel energy choice in the archetype, there is one about having a domain choice from your god. And then once you have it, the channel energy choice does get overriden and replaced an ability that only channels positive energy to heal, but "otherwise functions as channel energy for a cleric of your level".
The barrier to entry is not anything to do with channel, it's just on deity selection, and one that normally can occlude the specific change that is intentionally put in the archetype.
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It doesn't say "must have", it says "must [do X]". Have is a prerequisite of entry. There are no must haves regarding a channel energy choice in the archetype, there is one about having a domain choice from your god. And then once you have it, the channel energy choice does get overriden and replaced an ability that only channels positive energy to heal, but "otherwise functions as channel energy for a cleric of your level".
The barrier to entry is not anything to do with channel, it's just on deity selection, and one that normally can occlude the specific change that is intentionally put in the archetype.
"Must" doesn't mean "get to", it is a requirement, not something given.
To get this archetype the character "must cast spontaneous spells" doesn't make a cleric a spontaneous spellcaster.
Or, when the character is channeling energy, it must be positive energy that only heals undead, as in choice is overruled and you are given only this option/use. Again, this is an archetype that makes 0 distinction between good or evil clerics when it very easily could have. To assume that the ability is requiring you to be able to normally channel positive energy is a bad call based on the wording that could have been spelled out anywhere else (such as the place were other limitations are called out already in the archetype).