Arcane Cascade Should be a Free Action

[CaffeinatedNinja]

As I have played a lot of melee magus, I have really come to this conclusion.

Melee magus is badly action restricted, I think everyone agrees on this. And arcane cascade not only taking an action, but having to be after a spell is hard to use, not terribly fun, and often not worth the action.

Want to move and spellstrike round one? No cascade
Want to throw a spell then strike? No cascade (and giving up a MAPless strike for cascade is a horrible trade)
Yes you can cantrip and cascade, but 90% of the time that is a bad choice unless the fight is at range.

Tactically, I usually find myself in situations where cascade just isn’t worth the action given how restricted getting into it is, unlike pretty much any other stance.

Would this be a bit of a buff to magus? Yes, mainly melee magus but they need the help, starlit span doesn’t care about cascade much.

[Temperans]

I already have said my opinion on Magus. Needless to say, I agree that the Magus is badly action starved for being one of the classes that's supposed to be very flexible and action efficient.

[aobst128]

Not much to add but yeah I agree. Aside from the small bonus damage, cascade is supposed to be how you access your subclass abilities. It shouldn't be this hard to do it.

[The Raven Black]

Isn't the idea that Magus has to choose between tactics, including activating Cascade ?

Wouldn't the tactics become far more boring if it's always on ?

I play an Animal Barbarian in PFS. Sometimes I rage only in the 2nd or 3rd turn, or even not at all. It feels like a meaningful tactical choice.

[aobst128]

Decent point about the barbarian. But rage is a lot easier to use than cascade. Plus barbarians can get rage as a reaction making it even easier to use. They've got a decent reason to avoid raging because of the ac penalty but something like twisting tree magus always wants cascade on.

[YuriP]

Cascade as free action maybe is too much. But have a cascade as reaction in a feat in a future book sounds reasonable.

IMO cascade is a way to magus do more than just spellstrike every time (maybe including the situation where you risk to take AoO and don't want to make a spellstrike), so was think it's works more just like a intimidation check than really something like a perfect combo action to be always used.

[WatersLethe]

I haven't really found it to be an issue. My players have used it as an opportunity to hang back for the first round and set up for a flank. It's also not the end of the world if they wait out a round or two before activating it.

An early feat that combines it with the actions of casting a spell would be fine though, or even part of a class archetype that monkeys around with some of the melee magus stuff.

[aobst128]

Or perhaps a conflux spell to fire a weak elemental spell and cascade in one action

[CaffeinatedNinja]

WatersLethe wrote:

I haven't really found it to be an issue. My players have used it as an opportunity to hang back for the first round and set up for a flank. It's also not the end of the world if they wait out a round or two before activating it.

Yeah, but staying out of the fight for a round isn't fun a lot of the time, and tactically giving up your first round is rather huge.

[ottdmk]

Well, there's Capture Magic, but I suppose an argument could be made that it's too limited.

[Alchemic_Genius]

Honestly, having seen melee magi play, I'm not really convinced they are as action straved as people claim. You dont need to spellstrike every turn in order to be good, and cascade is amazing for weakness targeting. Almost every example I've seen of people claiming they are dependent on haste really only say such because they think they need to swing a spellstrike every single turn to keep damage up.

The magus' main things over other martials is powerful spike damage and exploiting weaknesses. Choosing to cascade vs using a conflux spell or recharge is a tactical choice.

[CaffeinatedNinja]

YuriP wrote:

Cascade as free action maybe is too much. But have a cascade as reaction in a feat in a future book sounds reasonable.

Try it:) It works really nicely. Frankly starlit span magus is still better, but melee feels more fluid with this change.

x
Also had another change, if spellstrike is already charged and you use a conflux spell, you can recharge spellstrike as a free action once for 1 minute. Allows you to lead with a conflux spell without wasting the free spellstrike recharge! Not a power boost but allows more flexibility.

[aobst128]

I could see a feat for a reaction cascade that's limited with a 10 minute time limit. So once per encounter so changing damage type will still cost the standard action.

[graystone]

It doesn't really matter to me as it's just a useless vestigial feature the Starlit Span doesn't have a use for*.

* it's only use is Starlit Eyes and it's something you want active BEFORE you cast your spells or spellstrike.

[WatersLethe]

CaffeinatedNinja wrote:

WatersLethe wrote:

I haven't really found it to be an issue. My players have used it as an opportunity to hang back for the first round and set up for a flank. It's also not the end of the world if they wait out a round or two before activating it.

Yeah, but staying out of the fight for a round isn't fun a lot of the time, and tactically giving up your first round is rather huge.

They don't "stay out of the fight" or "give up" their first round. They lob a spell, cast a buff, or move into a better position.

What is huge is rushing in headlong, getting downed with your d8 class hp and not-stellar AC, and waiting on the ground for a heal. It's not uncommon for a character to make tactical setup decisions first round.

[aobst128]

The buff + cascade is the suggested tactics in the printed class. Haste is the obvious choice but only helps when you have the opportunity to wait along with your allies for the enemies to get to you. If an enemy is in range for a stride + spellstrike, that's probably the better move.

[CaffeinatedNinja]

graystone wrote:

It doesn't really matter to me as it's just a useless vestigial feature the Starlit Span doesn't have a use for*.

* it's only use is Starlit Eyes and it's something you want active BEFORE you cast your spells or spellstrike.

Not going to lie, the lack of interaction with ranged magus is... weird. That being said, starlit span is the best magus from a pure power perspective already, so I suspect cascade was meant as a way to balance melee, but yeah, the implimentation is strange.

[CaffeinatedNinja]

Alchemic_Genius wrote:

Honestly, having seen melee magi play, I'm not really convinced they are as action straved as people claim. You dont need to spellstrike every turn in order to be good, and cascade is amazing for weakness targeting. Almost every example I've seen of people claiming they are dependent on haste really only say such because they think they need to swing a spellstrike every single turn to keep damage up.

The magus' main things over other martials is powerful spike damage and exploiting weaknesses. Choosing to cascade vs using a conflux spell or recharge is a tactical choice.

You don't need to spellstrike every turn, but when you aren't your damage is bad. The spikes actually aren't that big either except under very optimal circumstances.

The weakness exploit thing, unless your GM throws you a bone it doesn't come up that often. Maybe 10% of enemies have an elemental weakness. Most of those are fire so once you have a flaming rune, it is pretty rare that cascade will be a weakness hitter. (Basically nothing is weak to acid or lightning, about 3% to Ice)

[Losonti]

A feat to upgrade it to a reaction is reasonable, but what I think would really help is if its requirement could carry across turns. In other words, if the last thing you did on your last turn was casting a spell, you could spend your first action on the next turn to activate the stance. Right now, anything specifying your next/last action has to actually happen on the same turn as the ability you're using.

[graystone]

CaffeinatedNinja wrote:

graystone wrote:

It doesn't really matter to me as it's just a useless vestigial feature the Starlit Span doesn't have a use for*.

* it's only use is Starlit Eyes and it's something you want active BEFORE you cast your spells or spellstrike.

Not going to lie, the lack of interaction with ranged magus is... weird. That being said, starlit span is the best magus from a pure power perspective already, so I suspect cascade was meant as a way to balance melee, but yeah, the implimentation is strange.

I'm not surprised that it doesn't add damage but I'm surprised that it doesn't have any basic interaction at all even if it was just a ribbon effect. It's just odd. And the funny thing is that in a way it DOES benefit the ranged option by allowing it more actions as it doesn't have to spend one on cascade. ;)

[master.h]

So I've not actually played the Magus, but I'm very interested in it. If I'm reading it right, you cast a spell and spend an action then enter Arcane Cascade. From there, it's just a stance like any other, correct? As in you pay one action and remain in the stance until you exit it?

Personally I don't like the requirement that you have to cast a spell then spend another action to enter the stance, especially when looking at Monk stances where the requirement is "you are unarmored" and spending one action. Same with Rage, which has a requirement of "you aren't fatigued or raging" and spending one action.

[Losonti]

That's correct, you are in the stance until you enter another stance, get knocked out, or combat ends. Technically, as written, entering the stance immediately causes you to violate its requirement, which means it should end instantly, but that's clearly not intended.

[graystone]

Losonti wrote:

That's correct, you are in the stance until you enter another stance, get knocked out, or combat ends. Technically, as written, entering the stance immediately causes you to violate its requirement, which means it should end instantly, but that's clearly not intended.

Yep, a dev was on a podcast and said it was and it'd get errata... Of course, that has to wait for a reprint of the book.

[Ascalaphus]

Other classes with stances (fighter, monk, ..) get feats around level 12 to enter a stance on initiative roll. Magus doesn't; they first have to jump through a hoop that costs an action, then go into stance.

I like the idea that whatever hoop you jumped through flavors the damage from your stance, but it does end up suffering from the problem that strict 3 action routines are just awkward and fragile.

[roquepo]

At least arcane cascade for melee should be free. Other classes with stances can fit that action way, way better than a melee Magus can.

[YuriP]

Ascalaphus wrote:

Other classes with stances (fighter, monk, ..) get feats around level 12 to enter a stance on initiative roll. Magus doesn't; they first have to jump through a hoop that costs an action, then go into stance.

I like the idea that whatever hoop you jumped through flavors the damage from your stance, but it does end up suffering from the problem that strict 3 action routines are just awkward and fragile.

I understand that wasn't possible to make a feat that allow to begin in cascade instance due it's requirements but they could do this using a feat to allow it as a reaction. I still hope they may do something like this in a future book. It's just "unfair" that magus don't have such option.

[Ascalaphus]

I suspect we have some other feats like Arcane Shroud to blame, that attempt to give you more value for the action you spend going into cascade.

The problem with that though is that it's very finicky because you basically want spells that count for it (has to come from a spell slot, not a staff or cantrip) and be the right school and be useful at that point of the fight and preferably be only 1 action.

A feat at say, level 8-12 that makes going into the basic cascade a free action (but still requires you to have cast a spell previously) would be good.

[CaffeinatedNinja]

Ascalaphus wrote:

I suspect we have some other feats like Arcane Shroud to blame, that attempt to give you more value for the action you spend going into cascade.

The problem with that though is that it's very finicky because you basically want spells that count for it (has to come from a spell slot, not a staff or cantrip) and be the right school and be useful at that point of the fight and preferably be only 1 action.

A feat at say, level 8-12 that makes going into the basic cascade a free action (but still requires you to have cast a spell previously) would be good.

Maybe. I thought arcane shroud was insanely good when I first saw it, but now, eh.

Magus has a lot of routines that take 3 actions it seems which, particularly for a melee class, is painful.

[Ascalaphus]

Well I play a Starlit span magus with multiclass into monk for flurry, and I end up in melee a lot anyway. But yeah I'm always looking for things that ease the action economy.

[Malk_Content]

Standing back from.almost any fight and using a ranged option plus a buff is the right move. Unless your team is outgunned. Making the enemy come to you is better than you going to them, even if you are a melee build.