Power is balanced in P2 better than in past versions. It's one of the top things I like about the game along with the action economy and archetyping. Archetyping from a non-caster base class to pick up casting has a nice balance. You're a class level and spell level behind. That feels fair. You can't steal top level spellcasting capabilities from another class.
If I'm a Fighter and want to cast Lightning Bolt, that's available. I won't get the spell until I'm L8 (vs L5 for a Wizard or a Druid), and even then it will only be as powerful as a L5 spell-caster's. Is it still worth it? Depends on you. You get to force a reflex save instead of an attack roll, you get range and multiple targets, and you might trigger a weakness. You might feel so cool doing it that it doesn't matter. Either way, it's not your main class feature. For a Fighter, it's striking and maneuvers. The balance feels right here.
Cantrips don't put you any levels behind a full spell-caster. They scale automatically regardless of your base class. A Fighter can pick up Electric Arc or another cantrip for an easy ranged attack. If they have a high secondary casting stat, they'll only be a little behind on effect. Additionally, cantrips are at least a level behind a spell slot's power, so you're not able to cast spells better than a full spell-caster.
Focus Spells scale like cantrips. They're also behind the power of a top spell slot. If a non-caster dips into a class for a focus spell, they still can't match the same class level caster's top spell slot capabilities.
I think cantrips and focus spells work well in this regard. The balance is fine. As long as the focus spell or cantrip doesn't match the power of a top spell slot, balance is maintained. An example of a violation of this can be demonstrated with Lightning Bolt. It's an L3 spell. If we offered Lightning Bolt as a focus spell as an L6 feat, we've now violated the limits of basic archetype spell-casting which grants L3 spells at class level 8. Further, the spell automatically heightens every +1 spell level to do just as much damage as a full spell-caster. It's very low investment. Your spell DC will be behind a full caster's, but you're casting the same top level spell at the same effect. You're also casting it every battle.
That's clearly too much. It's a violation of the balance of the focus spell mechanic. Other archetype abilities don't offer anything on par with this from a spell-casting perspective.
This is the L1 Druid feat available to the Wild Order that allows them to use battle form spells as a focus spell. At first glance, it seems fine. It offers an auto-heightened top spell slot in every battle, but the Druid could already do this by casting a top spell slot. If you're into shapechanging as a main class feature, this is a great focus spell. It really opens the door on the ability. Not only can you shapechange for free (1 FP) every battle, you also retain your top level spell slots for full spell-caster effects. Super nice.
However, it's violating the standard focus spell limits. It's not behind a top spell slot. It is a top spell slot. It can be cast every 10 minutes, and it's actually more versatile than any one battle form spell, because you can take feats to use it dynamically as Insect Form and more, not just Animal Form and Pest Form. Where it's really broken is in the Druid Archetype. Wild Shape is available as an L4 feat. That means a martial can pick up the L2 Animal Form battle form spell two levels before being able to cast the spell. They can cast it every battle, and it auto-heightens to always be just as powerful as a base class Druid. Not only that, because their natural unarmed attack modifier will always be higher than what the spell offers, they also get a +2 status bonus to hit.
There have been many threads discussing whether one damage bonus or another applies in battle forms. We've been hung up on the RAW interpretations. We really get into that in this community, and although I lean more towards doing whatever's right for the table or fun or RAI, I am just as deeply invested in interpreting the RAW. Personally, I've been way off on this one, and the reason is that Wild Shape is flat out broken. It probably shouldn't exist even for the Druid (debatable), but it absolutely shouldn't be available in its current form to the Druid archetype. There's no precedent for this power level.
You could build a Fighter who invests in nothing but handwraps, no striking runes or magic armor needed, and uses battle forms with the highest martial attack and +2 for free. You can abuse this with any martial to give yourself the unlimited top spell slot capabilities of a Druid to shapechange, and there's no spell DC involved. So, you are not behind the full spell-caster in any regard. The real question isn't whether it's RAW to allow combat feats, sneak attack, athletics maneuvers, or other combat multipliers on top of battle forms. Although those are valid discussions, I think the real question is how Paizo approved this.
I think shapechanging is super cool. It's an awesome class ability. It's awesome as a spell, but it's not balanced as a focus spell that's more powerful than a top spell slot.
You could build a Fighter who invests in nothing but handwraps, no striking runes or magic armor needed, and uses battle forms with the highest martial attack and +2 for free. You can abuse this with any martial to give yourself the unlimited top spell slot capabilities of a Druid to shapechange, and there's no spell DC involved.
Not exactly. I looked at this recently, because I would like a shapechanging martial.
I assume you're disregarding opportunity cost intentionally. A Fighter needs 14 Wisdom (not bad, what else are you going to spend it on? Charisma?), Druid Dedication, Order Spell for a Focus Point (because Wild Shape doesn't grant one), and then Basic Wilding for Wild Shape at level 6 at the earliest.
Wild Shape caps at 5th level at level 10.
That's AC 18+Level or Medium armor with no runes at Expert Proficiency and Dex 10
-- That's good, right? Fighter doesn't get Armor Expertise until 11th. OK. Sure. If you never advance past 10th and have no chance at armor runes.
At 20th, the best you can do is Plant Shape to get Plant Form heightened to 7th.
There you're only doing 2 dice of damage when you should have max striking and some property runes.
So... not necessarily the best choice for a fighter, making the calculation a bit more involved.
I disagree on both counts: damaging spells & Wild Shape.
A +2 difference in a basic save DC equates to doing about 1/3 more damage, so even if the spell's damage is the same, the results aren't. And that's being generous, since the caster's DC is usually ahead by more than +2. Plus getting a high mental stat is costly to most martials as are those feats taking away from its core role. And hopefully a dedicated caster is taking metamagic feats (et al) that improve their casting.
Wild Shape's given stats are about "typical" for a generic martial, which makes for a decent secondary martial, yet lacks the strengths of a focused martial PC. A Fighter's in about the best position except note that a lot of Fighter feats require a weapon and they'd be giving up their better AC & later their Resistance from Armor Specialization. And forms have a level cap requiring the MCD Druid to take higher level feats to access better forms, but at 2x the level, those get costly and there are hiccups.
Plus there's spending two-actions to begin each battle and that going in w/ dubious equipment carries severe risk, even if uncommon.
Which isn't to knock these options! It's just that I feel the costs and tradeoffs are commensurate with their benefits. There's nothing OP about any of that, and some martials (i.e. Dragon Barbarians w/ their breath weapons) innately have comparable powers anyway.
Blake: Opportunity cost in the form of a 14 Wisdom (which is not a big deal) does not balance Wild Shape. You can get it at L4 with the Druid Archetype feat Order Spell Feat 4. No L6 feat is required.
You have a point about L15+. This doesn't get scaling bumps past that. However, L4-14 is a huge range representing the bulk of play time that most campaigns don't get beyond. Wild Shape has to be balanced in that range regardless of what happens after L14. It's not.
You have a point for someone looking at Fighter choices all the way to L20, but ultimately, the point of this post is that Wild Shape violates the standard range of power for focus spells. That shouldn't be allowed.
I disagree on both counts: damaging spells & Wild Shape.
A +2 difference in a basic save DC equates to doing about 1/3 more damage, so even if the spell's damage is the same, the results aren't. And that's being generous, since the caster's DC is usually ahead by more than +2.
It's a valid point. A wizard casting an L5 Lightning Bolt will do more damage than a martial casting an L5 Lightning Bolt. That's right, but that doesn't make it balanced that a Fighter can cast an L5 spell at the same time as a wizard. A damage spell was used for this, because they're easy to show the difference in power between a focus spell and a top spell slot.
Let's compare Lightning Bolt L3 Arcane/Primal, and the Sorcerer focus spell Dragon Breath also at L3:
Lightning Bolt - 120' line of lightning 4d12. Heighten +1 for +1d12
Dragon Breath - 60' line of lightning 5d6. Heighten +1 for +2d6
Dragon breath is a spell level behind in damage, and it's easy to see that. It's also half the area of effect.
That's the balance violation, not whether or not the effects of Animal Form are worth it. The Druid Archetype's Wild Order focus spell at L4 is the equivalent of giving the Sorcerer or Fighter Lightning Bolt as a focus spell of auto-scaling top spell slot level.
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The big problem* being highlighted here is just that martials using archetypes to pick up spells/focus spells get vastly more value out of spells that don't require saves and get abnormal value from focus spells (since they auto scale) compared to slotted spells (because scaling is limited there). But those are both fundamental design choices baked into the system Paizo made.
That wild shape is a little bit on the strong side seems mostly inconsequential in the long run, especially since it's a spell that expects additional investment over your career in order to get full value from it.
You have to take the Martial Artist Archetype (presumably at Level 8) to make this work, because the Fighter's Unarmed Proficiency no longer scales with their highest Weapon Proficiency (it used to, but then was Errata'd).
I see this in the FAQ:
Changes to All Classes for Unarmed Attack Proficiency and Benefits
Any class feature that improves the proficiency rank or grants the critical specialization effect access for simple weapons or a specific set of weapons, that ability also grants that benefit for unarmed attacks.
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I assume you're disregarding opportunity cost intentionally. A Fighter needs 14 Wisdom (not bad, what else are you going to spend it on? Charisma?), Druid Dedication, Order Spell for a Focus Point (because Wild Shape doesn't grant one), and then Basic Wilding for Wild Shape at level 6 at the earliest.
Just a quick correction here - one doesn't actually need to get the focus pool via Order Spell:
You automatically gain a focus pool of 1 Focus Point the first time you gain an ability that gives you a focus spell.
For what it's worth, I do think that the effectiveness you get out of being a martial who applies their key class ability (which is quite variable, given the disagreements on how Battle Forms work, but fighter clearly always works) to a Wild Shape is disproportionately powerful from levels 4 to 10, and then is a fairly weak strategy after level 10. I'm not a huge fan of that - it feels like in the early days of PF2 where one could become Trained in a specific weapon as a caster, but not Expert (without it being an ancestry weapon). It's just not fun to have a character concept drop away into irrelevance halfway through the game.
The big problem* being highlighted here is just that martials using archetypes to pick up spells/focus spells get vastly more value out of spells that don't require saves and get abnormal value from focus spells (since they auto scale) compared to slotted spells (because scaling is limited there). But those are both fundamental design choices baked into the system Paizo made.
That wild shape is a little bit on the strong side seems mostly inconsequential in the long run, especially since it's a spell that expects additional investment over your career in order to get full value from it.
As long as the focus spell is a level behind top slot level effectiveness, there's a limit to what the martial can get out of it without a DC compared to being able to cast a top spell slot. Battle form can be a top spell slot with a free use per battle and a +2 status bonus to hit over martial progression. That's unprecedented among focus spells. Aerial Form, Animal Form, Insect Form, Elemental Form are full spells, not focus spells. The archetype adds +2 to attack, and making it a focus spell let's you pick any battle form of any type you know to fit the occasion. It's not only a top spell slot in power, it's better.
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You have to take the Martial Artist Archetype (presumably at Level 8) to make this work, because the Fighter's Unarmed Proficiency no longer scales with their highest Weapon Proficiency (it used to, but then was Errata'd).I see this in the FAQ:
Changes to All Classes for Unarmed Attack Proficiency and Benefits
Any class feature that improves the proficiency rank or grants the critical specialization effect access for simple weapons or a specific set of weapons, that ability also grants that benefit for unarmed attacks.
The updated printing of the CRB made following the errata has different wording than this and just makes unarmed attacks (of the correct weapon group) benefit from weapon mastery, which doesn't extend to battle forms because they lack a weapon group.
Why the updated CRB and the Errata don't match I can't answer you.
The updated printing of the CRB made following the errata has different wording than this and just makes unarmed attacks (of the correct weapon group) benefit from weapon mastery, which doesn't extend to battle forms because they lack a weapon group.
Every battle form spell says they're unarmed:
One or more unarmed melee attacks specific to thebattle form you choose, which are the only attacks you
can use. You’re trained with them. Your attack modifier
is +9, and your damage bonus is +1. These attacks
are Strength based (for the purpose of the enfeebled
condition, for example). If your unarmed attack bonus
is higher, you can use it instead.
An L5 Fighter with +1 wraps using an Animal Form will have a +18 attack. The L3 heightened version offers +14. (Same Fighter L4 is +15 vs +9 for the L2 version.)
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Every battle form spell says they're unarmed
The updated printing of the CRB made following the errata has different wording than this and just makes unarmed attacks (of the correct weapon group) benefit from weapon mastery, which doesn't extend to battle forms because they lack a weapon group.
But they're not in the Brawling Group.
That's why you need Martial Artist.
A L5 Fighter with Mastery in Polearms is only Expert in Unarmed Attacks.
Taking Martial Artist brings your Unarmed Proficiency up to Master (and eventually Legend).
The current Paizo online errata disagrees. It says it's the official word on errata. That says unarmed scales with highest proficiency. (Don't know why I typed FAQ earlier, I'm distracted on a train.)
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The current Paizo online FAQ disagrees. It says it's the official word on the FAQs. That says unarmed scales with highest proficiency.
That isn't what it says. It says unarmed proficiency scales with class features that upgrade one of two things:
- Simple Weapons- A specific set of weapons.
Wizards are an example of the latter case. Their class features advance a list of weapons which are specified to be: the club, crossbow, dagger, heavy crossbow, and staff. So they advance unarmed attacks with those weapons.
Fighter Weapon Mastery and Weapon Legend don't qualify. Neither advances the proficiency of all simple weapons, and neither specifies which weapons will be advanced. Instead, you get to choose which weapon group you want to advance. So neither feature advances unarmed attacks in general (although they will advance unarmed attacks in the selected weapon groups).
If they meant any weapons rather than specific weapons then they why mention either Simple Weapons or Specific Sets of Weapons at all? It would have been much, much simpler to just say "any weapon" like they do in several archetypes.
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The big problem* being highlighted here is just that martials using archetypes to pick up spells/focus spells get vastly more value out of spells that don't require saves and get abnormal value from focus spells (since they auto scale) compared to slotted spells (because scaling is limited there). But those are both fundamental design choices baked into the system Paizo made.
Yes Wild Shape is a good flexible choice that doesn't rely on spell DC.
But there are other things as well like:
Hymn of Healing, Lay on Hands, Life Link, Life Boost,
Call to Arms, Cloak of Shadow, Loremaster's Etude,
Dragon Claws (not so much claws as the resistance),
Force Bolt.
They all have their place and are just as good on a martial character as a caster. Realistically if any character doesn't have a good focus spell then there is some optimization space that is being wasted. So yes martials should pick these up.
I agree Wildshape is a bit broken in a multiclass. I'd really like some rules clarity on it first though. So we are actually agreeing on what the problem is.
I see what you mean. I still read it to include Fighter progression. It says any class feature. Choosing a weapon group improves proficiency with a specific set of weapons, the ones in that group. I'll read it again when I get home and see if I wobble.
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This is why the previous threads on Fighters with Wild Shape mention Martial Artist.
It's another investment required to really make Wild Shape take off.
But by then you've spent 4 Feats just to do one combat trick really well.
If that makes you happy, go for it. I've considered doing it myself.
But because of all the trade-offs required, I disagree with the mindset that "Wild Shape is Broken". The +2 status also starts to lose its luster at high levels when buffs like Heroism overtake it.
Archives say unarmed attacks are included under weapon mastery L5. I'm not seeing a case for requiring martial artist.
The potency of the archetype capability is not the issue here either way. What applies and what doesn't has been debated landing on from under to over powered. I've gone back and forth in opinion myself and still don't have a clear position in it all.
The issue raised here is again converting a full spell to work as a focus spell instead, giving it to archetypes ahead of level, and upgrading its power. That is broken.
All other focus spells are behind top level full spell power. Arguing that it isn't a great spell is another story, and I do enjoy hearing opinions on that even here.
I see what you mean. I still read it to include Fighter progression. It says any class feature. Choosing a weapon group improves proficiency with a specific set of weapons, the ones in that group. I'll read it again when I get home and see if I wobble.
Try this thought experiment:
Freddy the Fighter reaches 5th level and gets Fighter Weapon Mastery. If that feature advances a specific set of weapons, then we should be able to list them. What are they?
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Personal Aside:
Working on my proficiency tables I went around and around trying to make sense of that errata. There are several problems with it.
-The second printing of the CRB doesn't include the language from the errata and it doesn't specifically implement it in those Fighter features.
-If all unarmed attacks are meant to advance when any other weapon advances then there was a much shorter and clearer way to say that. I just did so in the previous sentence. In fact, they use that sort of language in several archetypes like Archer. So why go on about Simple Weapons and Specific Sets of Weapons?
-Clerics of Irori have fists as their favored weapon. Clerics of Desna have Starknives as their favored weapon, but they'd also advance all unarmed attacks. So Desna's Clerics would get Irori's favored weapon as well as Desna's? That doesn't seem right.
The only way I could reconcile all of these things was the interpretation that I gave you before - that the word specific isn't just sentence filler.
The +2 status also starts to lose its luster at high levels when buffs like Heroism overtake it.
True, but to have +2 every combat every combat is very very good. I also presume there are other martials in your party, they could use Heroism too. Or does everyone get it every combat at that level.
For me the real cost is the two actions the wildshaper has to use on their first turn. Most fights are only 3-4 rounds duration. That action cost is significant.
Archives say unarmed attacks are included under weapon mastery L5. I'm not seeing a case for requiring martial artist.
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I see where it says that it advances unarmed attacks in the chosen group (brawling would obviously be the best choice if you want to focus on unarmed attacks). Where does it say that it advances all unarmed attacks?
It's definitely being argued both ways like a lot of questions about the spell.
Doesn't matter though. All martial progressions get the +2 status bonus that the full caster doesn't. Plus they get additional martial capabilities stacked on top. They get their base class benefits plus the a max top spell slot. Maybe it's disingenuous to debate this calling it a focus spell. We are talking about giving the Animal form spell to non casters at the same level as a full caster plus an extra +2 to boot. It's "wild" to me.
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It's definitely being argued both ways like a lot of questions about the spell.
Doesn't matter though. All martial progressions get the +2 status bonus that the full caster doesn't. Plus they get additional martial capabilities stacked on top. They get their base class benefits plus the a max top spell slot. Maybe it's disingenuous to debate this calling it a focus spell. We are talking about giving the Animal form spell to non casters at the same level as a full caster plus an extra +2 to boot. It's "wild" to me.
You know that the casters' power comes from all the spells they can cast and that this balances the higher attack proficiencies of the Martials, right ?
It's definitely being argued both ways like a lot of questions about the spell.
Doesn't matter though. All martial progressions get the +2 status bonus that the full caster doesn't. Plus they get additional martial capabilities stacked on top. They get their base class benefits plus the a max top spell slot. Maybe it's disingenuous to debate this calling it a focus spell. We are talking about giving the Animal form spell to non casters at the same level as a full caster plus an extra +2 to boot. It's "wild" to me.
I think this post summarizes it: Martials either benefit from their class features (Rage, Sneak Attack, Fighter higher proficiency, Edge) or they benefit from the +2. So you basically cast a spell to be as strong but a bit different, it's a sidestep.
Wild Shape builds are not very efficient. One of my first PFS character is a Wild Shape Druid. And it's still low level because I fail to build it in a satisfying way. Sure, morphing into an animal is easy, but if it means being subpar in terms of fighting abilities, I hardly see the point.
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Focus Spells scale like cantrips. They're also behind the power of a top spell slot. If a non-caster dips into a class for a focus spell, they still can't match the same class level caster's top spell slot capabilities.
Just to bounce on that: It's not really true and really depends on the class you're speaking of. Focus Spell based classes, like Oracle or Druid, have very competing Focus Spells. There are a variety of Focus Spells that are at the level of the highest level spells you can cast, and some that can be even arguably considered better.
The best spell attack spells are Focus Spells, Lay on Hands is definitely a top level Focus Spell, Debilitating Dichotomy is the highest single target damaging spell at the level you get it, Wild Shape is obviously very strong but at a very high feat cost, Force Bolt is a 1-action Magic Missile, Tempest Touch does more damage than Harm, Life Boost and Life Link are also massive when it comes to healing, etc...
Also, I've never seen a martial with Wild Shape, but I've seen a lot of non-Champions with Lay on Hands, so it seems to me that Wild Shape is far from being an imbalancing spell.
Eh,it is good... but not getting any damage adjusters from your items or class hurts.
And status bonuses come from elsewhere mid level onwards, or very early on if you have a bard.
And yes I am going to say RAI says no as well given than the barbarian dragon form feat specifically calls out rage being added amongst its changes.
So no weapon spec damage, no damage runes, limited by size and AC scaling, can't use mutagens (polymorph trait), can't activate many items or even access items, costs an action to dismiss. Heck you might even get GM's slapping a DC adjustments on people using battle medicine on you due to your form.
Sure it can benefit from stuff like telluric power, but still. Cool as an opion, not game breaking at all.
(On that note barbarians can get rage damage, weapon spec and damage runes on their animal form via the feat as it lets them use their unarmed strike in its entirety, no +2 status bonus to atk though)
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I think the premise that Wild Shape is as good as a top-level spell slot and therefore broken is under the assumption that all spells scale equally. Unfortunately, summoning spells and battle form spells fall behind when not used in the highest-available spell slot. I believe you'll see the same pattern in the Relic rules, where the summon and battle form abilities scale better than the damage spell equivalents.
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To put it another way... the reason that Wild Shape is great on the Druid is that they get to spend no daily resources, and still function as a low-budget fighter. That lets them save their slots for other fights. It provides a higher floor. As a fighter, you *already* have the ability to function at a relatively high level without spending daily resources, because that's what the fighter does. For a fighter, the ability to pretend to be a low-budget fighter is much less interesting.
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What exactly is this being compared to to determine it is broken? Is it a fighter getting better mileage than a druid from wild shape, or a Wilde Shape fighter being better than a normal fighter? The former just a martial being better at being a martial, and I'm not sure the latter is true. The status bonus is cool, but can you get an item bonus? And if you can, does that mean investing in hand wraps? And if so, are you also investing in martial artist stances to do respectable damage when not shifted?
And the raw damage numbers in Animal Form don't look super impressive when you compare it to a d12 weapon damage. The status bonus probably offsets the lower damage dice, but does it do so enough to also make up for using two actions to cast, potentially provoking, and not getting the host of advantages actual fighter feats provide with weapons? How about compared to a fighter who takes the barbarian MCD?
I haven't crunched the numbers but at a glance it doesn't seem THAT good.
Focus Spells scale like cantrips. They're also behind the power of a top spell slot. If a non-caster dips into a class for a focus spell, they still can't match the same class level caster's top spell slot capabilities.Just to bounce on that: It's not really true and really depends on the class you're speaking of. Focus Spell based classes, like Oracle or Druid, have very competing Focus Spells. There are a variety of Focus Spells that are at the level of the highest level spells you can cast, and some that can be even arguably considered better.
Exactly what I wanted to say. Especially the Druid focus spells are really good.
Tempest Surge, Updraft and Crushing ground are better and normal lvl 1 blasts, with good damage and good riders.
Combustion can be argued to be better than Lightning Bolt, same range, swap the line effect for persistent damage that will do overall more damages than Lightning Bolt.
At higher level you don't have as much an issue, but its' more due to the scarcity of higher levels Focus spells.
The status bonus is cool, but can you get an item bonus? And if you can, does that mean investing in hand wraps?
This is the one issue the designers have clarified. Your item bonus does count when you are working out our own attack bonus to replace the battle forms attack bonus. Which if you look at the way the attack bonuses line up we could already infer. The rules about handwraps where clear they do work in battle form, but only the parts which are legal to do so - the fundamental runes on hand wraps clearly don't work.
Your other rules concerns are clearly valid though. Its very hard to talk about balance if we aren't acutally agreeing where the numbers sit. My summary is here.
If you take a very hard intepretation and don't allow battle forms to grapple or to add any additional damage then the options are pathetic and just not useful at all. Being down on AC and Damage and often to Hit on a normal martial (not talking even about fighters) is just stupid because you don't have any of their manevers and can't get their better options either. If you allow everything the the wildshape druid is fair as an secondary martial if they invest a lot into it - they are still lower on many factors like AC and maneuvers but it starts to get closer - but then multiclass martial to druid is OP levels 9-12. I think this is why Paizo changed the proficiencies the way they did for the fighter, but they just missed Martial Artist Dedication.
The status bonus is cool, but can you get an item bonus? And if you can, does that mean investing in hand wraps?This is the one issue the designers have clarified. Your item bonus does count when you are working out our own attack bonus to replace the battle forms attack bonus. Which if you look at the way the attack bonuses line up we could already infer. The rules about handwraps where clear they do work in battle form, but only the parts which are legal to do so - the fundamental runes on hand wraps clearly don't work.
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The potency runes, which grant the item bonus, are fundamental runes, so I think you meant something else here.
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My opinion is that how powerful a martial with wild shape is depends a HUGE amount on how wild shape works at that particular table.
At some tables the martial will be underpowered, at some it will be overpowered, at some it will be about right. And at some the power level will depend on the martial as some things that power up a wild shaper will work and some won't.
But there are just SO many uncertainties that it is literally impossible to say that wild shape is overpowered or underpowered in general.
I really don't think that as a Fighter the Wild Form attacks should benefit from Fighter Weapon Mastery.
That feature specifically says that when you pick weapon group, it upgrades all weapons AND unarmed attacks in that weapon group. If it gave that benefit to all unarmed attacks in general, why would it specify that it increases your proficiency with unarmed attacks in that weapon group?
As to whether or not this Focus Spell is too good and breaks the balance of other Focus spells for Martials to dip into, I really don't think it does.
Think about it like this, most of the time when you cast a high level spell or focus spell, it does its thing and then you continue being a martial that is, presumably, good at martial things. If a fighter casts Lightning bolt, it's cost for doing so is two actions where it could be doing fighter things. Maybe in that moment, that is worth it. Maybe it's not. That's for the player in question to know.
If the fighter casts Animal form however, that spell basically replaces your fighter on the battle field. You may have an entire combat where the cost of using that spell is that you aren't doing fighter things. That's a much bigger investment and if you're getting a low-level version of that spell that is definitively worse as a martial than the fighter already was, then it is stupid and pointless. Why use it?
Wild Shape needs to be better than any other single use blast spell that the fighter might pick as a focus spell because it takes over everything that the fighter is and now IS your fighter.
And EVEN if you argue that you get a +2 to hit over your normal fighter attacks with this set up, losing all of your other fighter stuff in order to do so is probably only going to situationally be worth it.
Honestly, even though I don't think the wording of the rules right now supports Wild Shape benefiting from the fighter's upgrade in proficiency from Fighter Weapon Mastery, I would almost houserule that it does because I think it needs it to approach relevancy. Otherwise Monk with FoB, Rogue with SA, maybe Barbarian's Rage damage (arguable), and all the other Martial core tricks that they should be able to bring into a Wild Shape form would make Fighter's kind of terrible for this by comparison.
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The potency runes, which grant the item bonus, are fundamental runes, so I think you meant something else here.The status bonus is cool, but can you get an item bonus? And if you can, does that mean investing in hand wraps?This is the one issue the designers have clarified. Your item bonus does count when you are working out our own attack bonus to replace the battle forms attack bonus. Which if you look at the way the attack bonuses line up we could already infer. The rules about handwraps where clear they do work in battle form, but only the parts which are legal to do so - the fundamental runes on hand wraps clearly don't work.
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No I was correct. The potency and striking runes don't work in the battle form. They do work on the untransformed Druid. The potency rune therefore counts when the Druid is working out hs unarmed attack modifier which is the number he can substitute in place of the the battle forms unarmed attack modifier, but its misleading to say it works in the battle form. Thats the idea that so many people fall over on, that Paizo have cleared up.
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And EVEN if you argue that you get a +2 to hit over your normal fighter attacks with this set up,
I never seen anyway seriously say you don't get this +2. Its in the wildshape focus spell granted by the wildshape feat its black and white. If a GM takes it away its a house rule. Lots of people forget that they don't get it unless their attack numbers are higher than the form - so most of the time single class Druids don't get it - but the rule is crystal clear and was restated by Mark in that video.
This by the way is why I point to this as the mismatched piece of the feature. It really doesn't help druids unless they are trying to use lower level wild shape forms - thats almost the only time a STR maxed druid can get his attack number higher than a battleform spell - and it doesn't do a great job of that as its a inferior substitue for even 1 spell level lower. But it does work far too well for martial's multiclassed into druids, as they get it on top of their better attack values, including on many of the forms that autocscale to higher levels like Animal and Dinosaur forms.
losing all of your other fighter stuff in order to do so is probably only going to situationally be worth it.
Fighters have enough feats to do this. Plus it really only takes some of your feats not all. There is generally 2-3 spare feats left to do the other key martial things you are after. If all else fails a martial can simply choose not to transform and still be Ok even if a bit less efficient. I typically find martials are spending feats on options, not in stacking on more power to the one feature. PF2 doesn't really let you do that anywhere near to the extent you could in PF1. Going Wildshape is a significant option for a martial, but it doesn't cut them off from their class.
No I was correct. The potency and striking runes don't work in the battle form. They do work on the untransformed Druid. The potency rune therefore counts when the Druid is working out hs unarmed attack modifier which is the number he can substitute in place of the the battle forms unarmed attack modifier, but its misleading to say it works in the battle form. Thats the idea that so many people fall over on, that Paizo have cleared up.The potency runes, which grant the item bonus, are fundamental runes, so I think you meant something else here.The status bonus is cool, but can you get an item bonus? And if you can, does that mean investing in hand wraps?This is the one issue the designers have clarified. Your item bonus does count when you are working out our own attack bonus to replace the battle forms attack bonus. Which if you look at the way the attack bonuses line up we could already infer. The rules about handwraps where clear they do work in battle form, but only the parts which are legal to do so - the fundamental runes on hand wraps clearly don't work.
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I see the confusion. We are using slightly different terminology. You said that the fundamental runes don't work if you are "in battle form." I would say that you are still "in battle form" even when you are substituting your attack bonus for the battle form's attack bonus.
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I see the confusion. We are using slightly different terminology. You said that the fundamental runes don't work if you are "in battle form." I would say that you are still "in battle form" even when you are substituting your attack bonus for the battle form's attack bonus.
But you are caclculating your number as if you aren't transformed and not applying any of the battle form effects. So semantically I'm not with you, even though we do agree on the outcome here.
Anyway Paizo have done a totally shocking job here in terminology. They keep addding more forms to the game and they just don't have the basics even remotely clear. Its just awful.
And EVEN if you argue that you get a +2 to hit over your normal fighter attacks with this set up,I never seen anyway seriously say you don't get this +2. Its in the wildshape focus spell granted by the wildshape feat its black and white. If a GM takes it away its a house rule.
You misunderstand me sir. I absolutely agree that you get the +2 from the focus spell. The +2 I refer to is from proficiency from the Fighter Weapon Mastery feat. If you don't get that increase in proficiency from the class feature, then the +2 from the focus spell only gets the attacks from Wild Shape to equal those of your favored weapon group.
Since Wild Shape attacks aren't in the brawling weapon group, or any other, you can't pick them as your preferred weapon type, and they'll always be one degree of proficiency behind your Fighter's preferred weapon type.
losing all of your other fighter stuff in order to do so is probably only going to situationally be worth it.Fighters have enough feats to do this. Plus it really only takes some of your feats not all. There is generally 2-3 spare feats left to do the other key martial things you are after. If all else fails a martial can simply choose not to transform and still be Ok even if a bit less efficient.
That was kind of my point. Since most fighter feats are tied to weapon systems, requiring you to be welding a bow or a shield or a 2-handed weapon, or an agile weapon, or whatever, most of them are not comparable with Wild Shape, so you're giving up all those things when you transform.
Not all obviously. There's Fighter feats you can take that'll still work, but your options are very limited, especially if you want to take more Druid feats to get better battle forms.
Focus Spells scale like cantrips. They're also behind the power of a top spell slot. If a non-caster dips into a class for a focus spell, they still can't match the same class level caster's top spell slot capabilities.Just to bounce on that: It's not really true and really depends on the class you're speaking of. Focus Spell based classes, like Oracle or Druid, have very competing Focus Spells. There are a variety of Focus Spells that are at the level of the highest level spells you can cast, and some that can be even arguably considered better.Exactly what I wanted to say. Especially the Druid focus spells are really good.
Tempest Surge, Updraft and Crushing ground are better and normal lvl 1 blasts, with good damage and good riders.
Combustion can be argued to be better than Lightning Bolt, same range, swap the line effect for persistent damage that will do overall more damages than Lightning Bolt.At higher level you don't have as much an issue, but its' more due to the scarcity of higher levels Focus spells.
The consensus of posts above is that some Focus Spells are more powerful than a top spell slot spell. You can compare for yourself whether or not this is true using the examples given.
Tempest Surge at L3 = 1 target, range 30', 3d12 + on fail clumsy 2 and 1 pers. dmg (+1 heighten +1d12)
Lightning Bolt L3 = 4d12, 120' line (+1 heighten +1d12)
Comparison: Tempest Surge is clearly a level behind (dmg, range, area of effect)
Updraft at L1 = 1 target, range 60', 2d6 + on fail prone (+1 heighten +2d6
Hydraulic Push L1 = 1 target, range 60', 3d6 + 5'shove or crit 6d6 +10'shove (+1 heighten +2d6)
Comparison: Updraft is a level behind (dmg)
Crushing Ground at L1 = Same thing as updraft: riders +2d6
Comparison: Less than L1 Magic Missile, less than Shocking Grasp, less than Hydraulic Push. Same dmg as Burning Hands, but BH has an area of effect.
Focus Spells are balanced to be at least a level behind a full spell-caster's top spells. The exception is Animal Form via Druid Wild Shape which is a Full Spell (not a Focus Spell) granted by feat to act as a Focus Spell.
You can argue Animal Form isn't that good. I like that debate. You can argue it's over or under powered depending on the extremely vague battle form guidelines. You can take this a lot of different directions. Still, at the end of the day, it violates the balance between Focus and Full spells.
No Focus Spell is on par with a same level Full Spell. If you've got one, please show the comparison.
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No Focus Spell is on par with a same level Full Spell. If you've got one, please show the comparison.
Inspire Courage is, IMO, probably the best Spell in the entire game and it can continually be invested in via a variety of Feats that provide extra damage, Temp HP, provide them with the ability to Stride during your turn, Stride and Strike, or even give yourself a superior version of an AoO.
Pound for pound, I don't think there is another Spell that is NEARLY as good a use for a single Action as Inspire Courage, especially since it never consumes a Spell Slot or Focus Point at ALL.
Focus Spells are balanced to be at least a level behind a full spell-caster's top spells.
Its pretty hard to compare exactly I mean Tempest surge inflicts a condition, so it doesn't completely correspond to Lightning Bolt, or Shocking Grasp, or Sudden Bolt. I think your assertion is reasonable. The focus spells that match the damage of top level spells tend to have other disadvantages, like reduced range or area. Consider Force Bolt is very close to Magic Missile, Pulverising Cascade is similar to Fireball, but they aren't the same.
For the non damaging spells the comparison gets much harder,The exception is Animal Form via Druid Wild Shape which is a Full Spell (not a Focus Spell) granted by feat to act as a Focus Spell.
The WildShape focus spells are better that the Primal spell because the various Druid feats stack on top here. For example the +2 status bonus to attack is only available if you cast the focus spell and not the normal slotted primal spell.
You can argue Animal Form isn't that good. I like that debate. You can argue it's over or under powered depending on the extremely vague battle form guidelines. You can take this a lot of different directions. Still, at the end of the day, it violates the balance between Focus and Full spells.
Nope you are being too picky. You are not valuing that WildShape requires a lot of ongoing feat investment to maintain that balance and other Focus spells do not. The balance is clearly in the same range. I don't need or want 100.00% balance. Arguing about the finer detail of balance is a waste of time. Near enough is good enough. Certainly we are inside +/- a few percent here.
No Focus Spell is on par with a same level Full Spell. If you've got one, please show the comparison.Inspire Courage is, IMO, probably the best Spell in the entire game and it can continually be invested in via a variety of Feats that provide extra damage, Temp HP, provide them with the ability to Stride during your turn, Stride and Strike, or even give yourself a superior version of an AoO.
Pound for pound, I don't think there is another Spell that is NEARLY as good a use for a single Action as Inspire Courage, especially since it never consumes a Spell Slot or Focus Point at ALL.
Of course Bard provides the best examples. Though I'd argue focus cantrips are more like class features than cantrips.
Give me Inspire Courage over Heroism, or Dirge of Doom over Fear anyday.Call to Arms is clearly better than Anticipate Peril
The correspondance is not one for one obviously but its very clear which is better and its not the slotted spell.