I am taking the Munitions Crafter feat on a gunslinger I have created and now I need to choose my free formulas. It is a little unclear to me which formulas I need to make my own ammunition. Is it sufficient to just take the formula for Black Powder? Or do I some sort of formula specifically for firearm ammunition and, if so, how specific does it need to be (e.g. Arquebus rounds)?
Hmm... That is a bit of a gray area. Unless I am missing something.
A lot of weapons say that they use Firearm Ammunition. Others have special ammunition, and the Firearm Ammunition says that their ammunition costs the same as the standard Firearm Ammunition.
Firearm Ammunition also says that you need Alchemical Crafting in order to create it because it requires creating the Black Powder (unclear if that is done separately or as part of the process).
So I think I would want a character to have formulas for both Black Powder and the specific ammunition that they are creating - typically the standard Firearm Ammunition, though some firearms may have a different ammunition. Whether the ammunition formula is the same for all of the ammunition types (standard Firearm Ammunition and the special ammunition), that is up to the GM. Personally, I don't think that formulas cost enough to worry about making them all be separate ammunition formulas.
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Hmm... That is a bit of a gray area. Unless I am missing something.
A lot of weapons say that they use Firearm Ammunition. Others have special ammunition, and the Firearm Ammunition says that their ammunition costs the same as the standard Firearm Ammunition.
Firearm Ammunition also says that you need Alchemical Crafting in order to create it because it requires creating the Black Powder (unclear if that is done separately or as part of the process).
So I think I would want a character to have formulas for both Black Powder and the specific ammunition that they are creating - typically the standard Firearm Ammunition, though some firearms may have a different ammunition. Whether the ammunition formula is the same for all of the ammunition types (standard Firearm Ammunition and the special ammunition), that is up to the GM. Personally, I don't think that formulas cost enough to worry about making them all be separate ammunition formulas.
Fire arm rounds are counted as a whole piece of ammunition, so it'd seem that each ammo counts as it's own formula [complete with black powder]. "Firearm rounds are a valid option for magical ammunition, just like arrows or bolts" + "Firearms require ammunition consisting of a projectile and black powder."
I don't think you'd need to take black powder separately unless you want to make a horn/keg to blow up. In a similar way, a Fireworks Technician wouldn't have to take black powder AND fireworks formulas even though it describes them as "using black powder, metals, and paper": it's a package deal IMO. For instance, a Dwarven Daisy formula shouldn't also require a Black Powder formula.
it's a package deal IMO. For instance, a Dwarven Daisy formula shouldn't also require a Black Powder formula.
Dwarven Daisy is a bomb, not ammunition. And it doesn't mention Black Powder anywhere.
For Firearm Ammunition the entire justification for the stated requirement of Alchemical Crafting is so that the character is capable of making Black Powder. So although it doesn't say it, I would expect that the character should also be able to make Black Powder in other quantities and for other purposes if they also know how to make it for turning into ammunition. At least for ammunition that requires Black Powder.
it's a package deal IMO. For instance, a Dwarven Daisy formula shouldn't also require a Black Powder formula.Dwarven Daisy is a bomb, not ammunition. And it doesn't mention Black Powder anywhere.
It mentions it's made of "a string of dozens of firecrackers", and the fireworks technician says fireworks are made of "black powder, metals, and paper". The only difference between fireworks and firecrackers is one go into the air... If that's not true for PF2, then it's an odd choice of words to use and they'd need to spell that difference out.
For Firearm Ammunition the entire justification for the stated requirement of Alchemical Crafting is so that the character is capable of making Black Powder. So although it doesn't say it, I would expect that the character should also be able to make Black Powder in other quantities and for other purposes if they also know how to make it for turning into ammunition. At least for ammunition that requires Black Powder.
It might be what you expect but it makes a point in telling us that a piece of ammo in an independent item that you can enchant separate from it's parts. Just as I wouldn't expect someone making an arrow to have to know the formula for arrow heads, shafts AND bolts in addition to the arrow itself, I wouldn't expect someone making a bullet to learn shot, paper and black powder in addition to a round of ammo. As I mentioned in my last post, IMO, I'd only expect someone to need the formula for black powder if they intend to make large quantities like a horn or keg: if we follow your train of logic, we'd need to learn the formula for a dose separate from that of a horn or a keg...
Let me ask you this: would you stop someone from making firearms ammo with blackpowder from a horn they bought instead of making the powder by scratch? If not then why force the black powder formula? IMO, section about needing alchemical crafting is just about it needing to use black powder in it's creation, NOT that you need to make black powder for each and every piece of ammo, and if it'd not required to be made each time then it doesn't have to be ever made by the producer as black powder is an item that you can buy.
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Hmm... That is a bit of a gray area. Unless I am missing something.
A lot of weapons say that they use Firearm Ammunition.
That link has caused some confusion, because the stat block it presents doesn't actually exist anywhere in Guns & Gears. It's an organizational template that AoN uses for all the ammunition.
If you have the formula for black powder, the very first unit is (Dose or Round); with Alchemical Crafting and that formula you can make whatever ammunition you need without needing further formulas.
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If you have the formula for black powder, the very first unit is (Dose or Round); with Alchemical Crafting and that formula you can make whatever ammunition you need without needing further formulas.
Do you need the black powder formula if you happen to have black powder on hand? Or is the black powder formula acting as a stand-in for all the items formulas made with it?
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If you have the formula for black powder, the very first unit is (Dose or Round); with Alchemical Crafting and that formula you can make whatever ammunition you need without needing further formulas.Do you need the black powder formula if you happen to have black powder on hand? Or is the black powder formula acting as a stand-in for all the items formulas made with it?
The black powder formula is also the formula for the basic non-magical rounds of ammunition (thus the dose or round designation). They go together so you're not burning entire formula books just on different types of firearm ammo.
The black powder formula is also the formula for the basic non-magical rounds of ammunition (thus the dose or round designation). They go together so you're not burning entire formula books just on different types of firearm ammo.If you have the formula for black powder, the very first unit is (Dose or Round); with Alchemical Crafting and that formula you can make whatever ammunition you need without needing further formulas.Do you need the black powder formula if you happen to have black powder on hand? Or is the black powder formula acting as a stand-in for all the items formulas made with it?
From space/formula savings that sound great but it does lead to a situation someone with black powder, shot and paper isn't able to put together a round unless they know how to make the black powder: it's kind of like having to know how to make a battery to be able to assemble a flashlight. So I understand why it's this way but it seems really, really odd that someone with all the ingredients can't assemble it.
I think I might like it so that there was a non-alchemy fire ammo formula too that works with already made black powder as an alternative. I could see having someone with spare cash to buy the powder but not the spare feats for Alchemical Crafting.
The black powder formula is also the formula for the basic non-magical rounds of ammunition (thus the dose or round designation). They go together so you're not burning entire formula books just on different types of firearm ammo.If you have the formula for black powder, the very first unit is (Dose or Round); with Alchemical Crafting and that formula you can make whatever ammunition you need without needing further formulas.Do you need the black powder formula if you happen to have black powder on hand? Or is the black powder formula acting as a stand-in for all the items formulas made with it?
Thank you for the clear answer. I think I had the right answer initially but then started to overthink things and disappeared down the rabbit hole!