3D space, the grid, light, and cones

[Ravingdork]

If I'm a large humanoid* with a bullseye lantern pointed straight ahead at eye level in an otherwise pitch black cave, and I don't have darkvision, can I see the halfling rogue kneling right in front of me tying my shoelaces together?

Or does the narrow end of the cone shine over his head thus leaving him in darkness to work his nefarious deeds?

If I shine the light down at my feet (say if the rogue failed a Stealth check) do I lose sight of the rest of the cave?

What if I shined it up at the high ceiling? Would it in effect become a large spread against the bats hanging there? (This might be important if I decide to use burning hands, a breath weapon, or similar cone attack.)

*:

Such as a giant with normal vision or low-light vision, an enlarged human barbarian, or something similar.

[breithauptclan]

Again you are trying to use 'realism' to justify tinkering with the game mechanics to make them do something that they clearly don't do.

[The Raven Black]

Use RAW and ask your GM. Best way, tried and true, to solve this.

Why is this in the Rules forum anyway ?

[Thod]

Actually 2e changed one aspect of light / darkness.

If you are in darkness without dark vision then you can see someone in light as long as there is nothing blocking it.

Magical darkness I think is the exemption.

So if you have your bullseye lantern low then you will see the halfling even if there is no light in the square above the halfling.

On my phone - so won’t waste half an hour to hunt it down in the rules. Check sight / darkness / light. 2e rules are not always straight forward where to look for such details - but I’m 95% sure that is correct and somewhere explained in the CRB and now explicit.

[Ubertron_X]

breithauptclan wrote:

Again you are trying to use 'realism' to justify tinkering with the game mechanics to make them do something that they clearly don't do.

While I do agree that rules bickering or abuse should best be avoided the question on how the given spells and effects, clearly written for a 2D map grid environment (at least if you ask me), interact with an actual 3D environment is not a trivial one.

At least our gaming group more often than not found itself doing a lot of basic geometry to determine if we could hit or could get hit by the multitude of area effects out there and or to determine line of sight/effect. As such I do find the question about 'dead zones' a very valid one, which however is sometimes best answered by the GM.

[Errenor]

For the starting question: as all characters most of the time are considered observing everything they could possibly see (we have no sight direction tracking), we could consider area underfoot of lantern bearer also spotlit. But this is DM's territory mostly.

But there are actually several other interesting questions concerning 3D space, the grid and areas. Like:

1) How cones from fliers work, which areas on the ground do they affect?
I suppose a good start is to consider areas' forms on the page 456 to be not on two horizontal axes, but on one horizontal and one vertical axis. Then proceed from here.

Same for bursts and emanations.

2) What is the movement cost for 3d-diagonals? See the picture.
So, we are moving diagonally in two horizontal axes, but also in horizontal and vertical axes. It's twice diagonal movement.
How do we count this cost with difficult and greater difficult terrains (so also flying up)?

And finally: what is the height of our characters and what is their vertical reach? How high from the ground should a character fly up to be out of reach of medium creature with 5ft reach? Large creature?

[breithauptclan]

Ubertron_X wrote:

breithauptclan wrote:

Again you are trying to use 'realism' to justify tinkering with the game mechanics to make them do something that they clearly don't do.

While I do agree that rules bickering or abuse should best be avoided the question on how the given spells and effects, clearly written for a 2D map grid environment (at least if you ask me), interact with an actual 3D environment is not a trivial one.

At least our gaming group more often than not found itself doing a lot of basic geometry to determine if we could hit or could get hit by the multitude of area effects out there and or to determine line of sight/effect. As such I do find the question about 'dead zones' a very valid one, which however is sometimes best answered by the GM.

Exactly. Not everyone is going to enjoy having to do complex geometry and trigonometry calculations in the middle of a gaming session.

So at best this is a question for homebrew.

[Thod]

I think 3D aspects in the OP question distract from the true issues around bulls eye lanterns

1) they can be used as a ‘weapon’

They are perfect if you ever know you go Duergar hunting

2) the rogue sword and lantern fighter vs sword and board

In darkness you are hidden from other creatures without dark vision if you are using lantern and sword.

The cone is only ahead of you. So you see perfectly while staying yourself in darkness. Others know your position but without dark vision or a second light source can’t do anything about your condition and are at a major disadvantage (disarm the lantern ?)

Never seen that in actual play - most GMs don’t bother about light rules and this is specific for a bulls eye lantern vs Wayfinder, torch, light spell - but there are some interesting aspects that can be done with a bulls eye lantern.

[Fumarole]

breithauptclan wrote:

Exactly. Not everyone is going to enjoy having to do complex geometry and trigonometry calculations in the middle of a gaming session.

Agreed. The most I will do is open a hypotenuse calculator in a web browser for determining range when considering a three dimensional environment. Otherwise I wing it, making my best guess, and we game on as I hate it when my games bog down in such things.

[Ravingdork]

Fumarole wrote:

The most I will do is open a hypotenuse calculator in a web browser for determining range when considering a three dimensional environment.

Same.