Yes, yet another kineticist thread, but I actually have a different thing I want to talk about: what narrative themes does the class mean to people?
I am (probably quite firmly) on record as wanting a slotless caster, but not particularly caring what class actually gets attached to that mechanic. As long as it has caster proficiencies but no slots, I’m happy (meaning the alchemist in some ways hits this for me, if had been just a bit more magical). But we all know that the current PF2 designers normally don’t think like that when designing classes. They start narrative first; what kinds of stories does this class design reference, what RP is enabled, what characters aren’t well served by current mechanics that could use more?
For the PF1 kineticist, for example:
Eh, they're different but also similar. Kineticist clearly gives a big nod to bending from Avatar, and the power source tends to be more impersonal. But there was enough archetype support for more uncanny types of energy to throw around so you could certainly make a good facsimile of a warlock with it. And both classes catered to the "blast all day" niche.I thought this as well, but then Paizo actually explained that it was inspired by Carrie O_O
The psion or mage that burns themselves inside out channeling power seems to have been the starting point. I suspect it was a “take-two” riff on the 3.5 warlock, the same way the witch was an earlier design that was inspired by the same 3.5 class, but the metric ton of horror and gritty fantasy tropes about burn also inspired it (I also just finished the Wheel of Time tv series, so that example is fresh in my mind).
Is this still something people want to see in PF2? What kind of mechanics might enable that? And what other kinds of characters/stories/roleplay do people associate with the class and want to see come back?
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I see them as the individuals with the strength of willpower or emotion to call forth the raw elements of creation and use them as weapons. They pass or fail my metrics based largely on how well they emulate Avatar-style “bending,” but should have room for what almost feels like a superhero as well.
They are definitively not doing the same thing as a spellcaster.
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I've said this a few times in all the kineticist threads that have come up I feel, but I would definitely want blasts to be based on spell attack rolls/DCs. A more martial style blast would likely result in a stronger class, but it just seems so wrong to me to have handwraps make your fireball hit harder. As cool as avatar is, in a larger picture of past elemental style powers in fiction, I feel like there's a lot less physical strength and a lot more of a castery vibe. One could say that the style of character that just controls an element with little martial prowess, something like Iceman or pyro, could be an elemental sorcerer, but as someone who plays one (and enjoys it) it really doesn't embody the single element focus I was hoping for (no matter how much you flavor something).
Either way it plays out, whether it be a martial with focus spells or limited spell slots, or more of an at will caster with barely any spells, I really hope it comes soon and is awesome.
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I have been in love with the "you push your body to exceptional limits due to your mastery of yourself" character back to Psychometabolism in the AD&D Psionics book.
So to me "you are limited only by your mastery of yourself, and you can always push yourself a little harder" is part and parcel to the thematics of the class.
I don't want slots, and I don't want focus points, I want tradeoffs of pain for power (not necessarily HP attrition like in PF1 but some kind of debuff for pushing yourself). It doesn't really need to be elementally themed, a Kineticist that does things like "harden your skin like armor" and "stretch your limbs impossibly" would work for me.
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Burn is something I really want to see in the 2e Kineticist in some form. Narratively I view kineticist as a good place to implement magic that is dangerous to the caster as well as their enemies, which puts an active strain on their bodies or souls which they push against for more power. I like that trope and would like some burn or exhaustion mechanic to be the primary limiter to the kineticist in 2e, not spell slots like casters. I'm more flexible on focus points, focus and refocus is more temporary and fits some kineticists in my mind, though having spellcasting like monks and rangers as opt-in would be preferable to spellcasting like champions where it is inherent to all of them.
I'd like the class to be able to represent stuff from Avatar: The Last Airbender, but don't want that to be baked into every kineticist and would like some aspects of it to be explicitly opt-in rather than inherent. Marital arts and spiritual discipline are cool sources for kinetic magic, but not the only ones. I'd like some kineticists to feel a lot less controlled, and some kineticists to be good in firefights but bad in fistfights. Also access to the substance of their element as a limiter can be cool but I'd like that to not be the default as a GM, since I then have yet another environmental limiter I need to keep in mind.
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I have no horse in this race because I came to Pathfinder in 2E but from what I've read a lot of people like the Kineticist as instinctive raw power. Sure a Sorcerer's abilities come from their blood but they still have to wiggle their fingers and speak in tongues to accomplish anything. A Kineticist just points and suddenly everything is on fire.
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I've primarily thought of Kineticists as Marvel mutants, pushing their bodies to the maximum. Firestarter (the book/movie) also works, with nosebleeds and throbbing veins from straining one's capacity. I'd always thought their connection to the Occult PF1 classes was dubious.
I don't know if Paizo ever pinned down how Kineticists operate in Golarion. If I recall, civilians treated them like Sorcerers. As for narrative themes possible though, it's near boundless since one can attribute one's power to a myriad of sources, including all of those for Sorcerers. And players have.
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The Mutants, the Jedi with the Force. The people who have the extraordinary power to affect reality with their mind. To get so much in tune with their surroundings that these change to answer their will. And who can hurt themselves if they go too far.
With greater mastery (and less hurting yourself when overextending) coming with greater experience.
No spellcasting, though the mechanics behind cantrips and focus spells might be recycled.
Energies are the usual focus, but anything could go : shapechanging, healing, knowing (mind reading, divination) ...
I'd always thought their connection to the Occult PF1 classes was dubious.
Another reason why I bring up stuff like Carrie and Scanners, and other horror genre stories. That part of jici’s post was what actually caught my attention; I hadn’t realized Paizo had confirmed that was their influence. I just knew I’d been assuming it was because it got the general tone of OA.
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In whatever form Kineticist makes its intro, I hope there's enough thematic difference to firmly separate it from Oracle, whose entire schtick is about being this living vessel of barely controllable energy, who unleashes greater and greater power, with increasing personal consequences.
That said, the class looks mechanically fun. I haven't kept up with Kineticist conversation — have there been thoughts about bringing a modified Solarian over to fill this niche? Would be cool to have a Solarian that could switch solar weapons mid-combat, like moving from melee one round to solar flare the next. While attuned, you could make use of burn mechanics. I like the idea of a versatile fighting style that can switch from ranged to melee from one turn to the next, and manifests the weapon they want to use when they need it. Solarian's got a bunch of other, fun slotless magical abilities that would give it a distinct flavor and playstyle in Pathfinder. Hopefully we'd get this in some space-themed book about planet-hopping and cosmic mysteries.
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Y'know, as long as we're leaning into Avatar stuff for Kineticist brand, would be cool if we translated that show's spiritual aspects into the mechanics as well, and made the class into a plane-walking emissary of the realms of the Great Beyond. Their more powerful abilities could even tear holes between our reality and their chosen plane, creating environmental effects à la Witchwarper. Blinking between planes would make them more mobile, with kinetic blast's effects changing depending on what plane you have connection with. "Burn" might well come from fiendish planes, while celestial planes inflict penalizing conditions for beholding divine power, or First World might have a percentile chance of summoning low-level hostile fey to pester you. Ooo! And Ethereal plane would make you risk possession by malevolent spirits for a turn. Etc.
Basically, you're a planebender.
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To get my thoughts together, going to sum up a couple things people are bringing up (or at least, my interpretation of what they're saying, please feel free to correct me or add on):
A:tLA: Able to shape elements that are already present in some way around them. Generally not able to create it or refine it; if they somehow are blocked from reaching a relatively pure sample of the element, their abilities are much lower. Flip side, the higher level you are the smaller the amount of element (and lower the "purity") you are able to manipulate. Exmples: Katara always needing a waterskin to bend, but then she's able to bloodbend; Toph is one of the first metal benders because the earth element in metal is so tiny that working out how to properly manipulate it took someone of her caliber.
The limitation part would be hard and probably not worth doing in game, but could also just be as simple as "need a spell component pouch".
X-Men: Generally no need to have the element present. Generally manipulates energy instead of matter (though there's tons of exceptions, this would only apply to the main 5 or 6). Downsides are social scorn and often being unable to turn off their energy manipulation, though they use tech (Rogue's gloves counts as tech) and willpower to direct their abilities.
I think the Oracle's mystery comes closest to hitting this one. Note: not advocating that class as a substitute, but looking at the curse mechanic as inspiration for whatever form the Kinetecist takes.
Carrie/Witcher/Wheel of Time: Able to channel/create pure energy and matter, at the cost of their life energy. Different shows have different specifics, but all pull something that is not present into being, so the idea that they are in tune with their surroundings is either not emphasized or generalized to be not their specific location ("I can feel the whole world!"). This to me is the closest to PF1 kinetecist, but there's 100% no reason we have to be married to the concept.
Jedi: Pulling and manipulating raw energy can eff them up like *anything*, but tossing objects (or themselves in Yoda's case) about like a football is quite possible. Important playstyle point is that they are in-tune with their surroundings. These would be pretty good archetypical Aether users.
I would be interested in all of the first 3 to be available to the class, either through feats or through a secondardy class path (like a cleric doctrine or psychic's subconcious choice).
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Space-themed book for PF2 would be awesome.
I want this like you wouldn’t believe. Lashunta ancestry, some Solarian-inspired archetype love, and info on the planets in 2e? Yes, /please/.
That's another thing that attracted me to kineticist in 1e, that the class wasn't a caster, just someone with a power. You weren't saying incantations and drawing symbols in the air and grabbing bat poop, you just flung rocks out of your hand. With the way 2e works I doubt it'll work out that way, it's pretty black and white, either something is magic or it isn't, there's no supernatural/spell-like/etc.
Not to derail this thread (whose purpose it was was to make sure another thread didn't derail) but I really am in love with the evolutionist and it may replace kineticist as my favorite class ever. Of course there are some changes that are gonna take place so in the end, who knows maybe it'll be a different beast, but adaptive strike is one of the coolest class features ever. It can be whatever kind of weapon you want, from a tentacle to a flamethrower to a volley of icicles. It auto scales, can be ranged or melee, and there are options to make it have longer reach, deal damage to different areas, change the types of damage it deals, etc. This sort of approach would work for kineticist too (I really hope the blast would auto scale at least and not need handwraps) as long as the strikes are a little more limited to your element and not anything you could imagine.
Because Paizo likes to work with opposing forces so much, and we have the 4 Essences of Magic that make 2 sets of opposing Traditions, let's look at what thematically sits across from the Kineticist and reverse-engineer what shape it might hold thematically. The Psychic, an Occult (opposite of Primal, the Tradition the Kine should be) Cantrip/Focus caster with seldom few slots that focuses on pushing their inner limits of the mind to get the most bang for the proverbial buck. They now have the (yet to be seen reworking of) Psyche mechanic, a heightened state of consciousness/being that connects them to a specific part of their inner world to fundamentally alter the process/end result of whatever effect they currently attempt. A lot of their feats revolve around bringing what is inside, out; pushing and imposing their will upon the world at large and reshaping the local laws of physics to accommodate their desires. Reversing and mirroring this, we could get something like:
- A Primal (low slot/slotless) "caster" who pushes the limits of the body to increase the potency of their powers.
- They have some stance/state they enter that takes the world around them and infuses THEM to make the body more powerful.
- Some ability to take what is beyond this plane and import it, causing a strange overlap like Dr. Strange's Mirror World where they make a tiny pocket of reality where they get to play god for a bit.