Depictions of Slavery in Golarion

[Hilary Moon Murphy]

Hey, if we had trouble keeping track of the chronology, it is no surprise that a player who was repelled by slavery storylines (and likely left organized play until they heard about 9-00) would also be confused by the chronology. Also, we should remember that just because PFS banned PCs from owning slaves did not mean that slavery narratives were not still happening in PFS.

[Ian G]

Berhagen wrote:

If removing slavery also means we can get rid of andoran and the eagle knights in one go that is a double win. Please get the andoran exceptionalism out of the fantasy setting…… talk about crappy inspiration.

...I'm going to have to hard disagree with you there, I have a vast headcanon built around Andoran and I would hate to see it go.

[NECR0G1ANT]

Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

Hey, if we had trouble keeping track of the chronology, it is no surprise that a player who was repelled by slavery storylines (and likely left organized play until they heard about 9-00) would also be confused by the chronology. Also, we should remember that just because PFS banned PCs from owning slaves did not mean that slavery narratives were not still happening in PFS.

They still completely misrepresented the OPT's response to how players misused the setting. 99% of everyone who read the open letter now have the wrong idea about the OPT, which really sucks for the devs. EM should have fact-checked with the OPT before making his call.

As someone who joined the Twin Cities PFS scene around this time, I remember PFS was heavy on abolition narratives (like Liberty's Edge), which are different than slavery narratives.

[TieflingArchitecht]

Berhagen wrote:

If removing slavery also means we can get rid of andoran and the eagle knights in one go that is a double win. Please get the andoran exceptionalism out of the fantasy setting…… talk about crappy inspiration.

I'm not quite sure why this would get rid of Andoran. Andoran's whole backstory is just about Cheliax being Lawful Evil Jerks, and the writeup in the 1E world guide mentions slavery only twice as far as I can see. The main point is that they Really Don't Like Lawful Evil. Also don't get your complaint about 'andoran exceptionalism.' Like sure, they go around the world fighting evil, but the setting has acknowledged from day one tha most people think they're idiots for it.

[Kobold Catgirl]

I agree with TA, but I also think Andoran is a kind of tiresome concept for a country. The lore for it itself might be good, I haven't read a lot of it. I'd like to see them move away from the "Americans' view of themselves" shtick (eagles, "freedom", etc). The America expy being cast as anti-slavery is especially rich.

[Berhagen]

Kobold Catgirl wrote:

I agree with TA, but I also think Andoran is a kind of tiresome concept for a country. The lore for it itself might be good, I haven't read a lot of it. I'd like to see them move away from the "Americans' view of themselves" shtick (eagles, "freedom", etc). The America expy being cast as anti-slavery is especially rich.

This indeed…

[Kobold Catgirl]

Reposting from the other thread--not to start an argument, but because I think it's interesting to look at how the "genre" of Golarion as a kitchen sink setting relates to the recent announcement.

You know, we have some great historical realism settings already out there. Eberron is fantastic for including nuanced depictions of "evil" characters, using them as a contrast against the pure evil of demons and aberrations or the "good" intentions of the well-meaning but destructive. A Lawful Evil vampire calls for peace while a Lawful Good queen plans for war.

Golarion has never been a historical realist setting. It's too far removed. Unlike Eberron, which has fairly expertly-crafted parallels (a Catholic church analog, political minority analogs), Golarion has pulpy allusions.

The references are done for fun, not for historical accuracy. Texas Chainsaw Massacre ogres coexist with medieval Europe Knights Templar coexist with Age of Piracy privateers. The Three Musketeers get to face off against Count Dracula, then go explore the jungles of Africa (oof) with their Wild West gunslinger friend. The Underground Railroad exists in the Roman Empire, which is also sort of the British Empire, and also sort of the Galactic Empire.

It's a goofy romp, a theme park. It's Disneyland's approach to world history. One might compare the removal of slavery to the removal of the "Bride Auction" from the Pirates of the Caribbean ride. Paizo wanted access to as many genres and character options as possible, and they decided they didn't want to focus as much on slavery as a genre setpiece anymore.

Eberron doesn't always do its parallels well--look at the Talenta Plains and Q'barra for that--but they do try to.

And if someone doesn't like that, that's fine! But it's really nothing new. Golarion is a kitchen sink setting, not a historical simulator. It's not fair to criticize Star Wars for faulty science, and it's a mistake to criticize Golarion for faulty history. It's failing to recognize that different genres other than one's personal favorite exist.

[Kobold Catgirl]

Yes, I will derail every thread to gush/complain about Eberron. It's so close to nailing it, but then it trips on the welcome mat. But it's still really good.

Ravenloft can also be a fun setting for this, thanks to the "plucked out of time on various worlds" motif.

[MindFl*yer98]

Ian G wrote:

CorvusMask wrote:

I think pretty much everyone realizes that Paizo not covering the topic doesn't meant that you can't cover it in your own game.

I'd like to assume at least that people upset about it are more upset about the "we won't see abolition being completed in universe through several books" aspect?

My anger is coming from my lack of time and ability to write a good adventure, and my desire to have an adventure about torching Cheliax and freeing every slave while playing Legally Distinct From General Grant or Legally Distinct From Harriet Tubman.

This. Setting and Adventure books exist because Paizo writers are better at writing and worldbuilding than most of their clients. It's why they are payed. So when they say "We won't cover this aspect of the world we created anymore, tie up the loose threads yourself" it feel like a cheat. I can write my own headcanons about the Golden Road region, inclusive of slavery, but i would much prefer having this done by a professional writer team who is actually good at it.

[pixierose]

I would rather not see Andoran be "improved" by making more like what it's loosely inspired by. Mainly because I always saw Andoran and Cheliax as two sides of the same coin. Andoran is sort of an idealized vision while cheliax is much closer to a reality but still borrows from other concepts and ideas.

I think if we wanted to make andoran more compelling and perhaps critique it more we can look at the Lumber consoritorium, we could maybe see some complicated issues when it comes to its democratic system and see some dangerous people get into power. I think if we want to tell a more complex or nuanced narrative with Andoran we can but we should do with the seeds that already exist not try and twist it.

I get why people don't nessecarilly like it's particular flavor and I think critiques are valid, but I think part of making the lore interesting is meeting where the lore is at and seeing what can we do with it.

And simillar to what Kobold Catgirl said, Golarion isn't trying to be a 1:1, and similarities are more about references and shorthands then for it to be an exact or accurate portrayal of a fantasy version of a thing.

I also would be okay with seeing aandoran move away from its routes, and gain some more inspiration from other locations or ideas, basically muddy who its based off on rather then try and change the ideals or the role of the nation in universe.

[thejeff]

MindFl*yer98 wrote:

Ian G wrote:

CorvusMask wrote:

I think pretty much everyone realizes that Paizo not covering the topic doesn't meant that you can't cover it in your own game.

I'd like to assume at least that people upset about it are more upset about the "we won't see abolition being completed in universe through several books" aspect?

My anger is coming from my lack of time and ability to write a good adventure, and my desire to have an adventure about torching Cheliax and freeing every slave while playing Legally Distinct From General Grant or Legally Distinct From Harriet Tubman.

This. Setting and Adventure books exist because Paizo writers are better at writing and worldbuilding than most of their clients. It's why they are payed. So when they say "We won't cover this aspect of the world we created anymore, tie up the loose threads yourself" it feel like a cheat. I can write my own headcanons about the Golden Road region, inclusive of slavery, but i would much prefer having this done by a professional writer team who is actually good at it.

Except they haven't been good at stuff about slavery from the start. Why do we have to insist they give themselves another chance to screw it?

[thejeff]

pixierose wrote:

I would rather not see Andoran be "improved" by making more like what it's loosely inspired by. Mainly because I always saw Andoran and Cheliax as two sides of the same coin. Andoran is sort of an idealized vision while cheliax is much closer to a reality but still borrows from other concepts and ideas.

I think if we wanted to make andoran more compelling and perhaps critique it more we can look at the Lumber consoritorium, we could maybe see some complicated issues when it comes to its democratic system and see some dangerous people get into power. I think if we want to tell a more complex or nuanced narrative with Andoran we can but we should do with the seeds that already exist not try and twist it.

I get why people don't nessecarilly like it's particular flavor and I think critiques are valid, but I think part of making the lore interesting is meeting where the lore is at and seeing what can we do with it.

And simillar to what Kobold Catgirl said, Golarion isn't trying to be a 1:1, and similarities are more about references and shorthands then for it to be an exact or accurate portrayal of a fantasy version of a thing.

I also would be okay with seeing aandoran move away from its routes, and gain some more inspiration from other locations or ideas, basically muddy who its based off on rather then try and change the ideals or the role of the nation in universe.

Agreed. I'd rather see it become less of a US parallel rather than closer to bad parts of US history.

[PossibleCabbage]

Andoran probably is going to change somewhat because Tar Baphon's route back to Absalom runs right through there, and Cheliax is going to play "nice" as long as that Sword of Damocles is hanging over their heads. So there's going to be an internal tension between "we need to build up the military" and "if we're not going to go to war with Cheliax, we should spend that money on something else."

[TriOmegaZero]

Plus all of the slavery stuff is in already published books. Those books aren’t going anywhere. I’m still playing in pre-2E Golarion via 1E adventures.

[MindFl*yer98]

thejeff wrote:

MindFl*yer98 wrote:

Ian G wrote:

CorvusMask wrote:

I think pretty much everyone realizes that Paizo not covering the topic doesn't meant that you can't cover it in your own game.

I'd like to assume at least that people upset about it are more upset about the "we won't see abolition being completed in universe through several books" aspect?

My anger is coming from my lack of time and ability to write a good adventure, and my desire to have an adventure about torching Cheliax and freeing every slave while playing Legally Distinct From General Grant or Legally Distinct From Harriet Tubman.

This. Setting and Adventure books exist because Paizo writers are better at writing and worldbuilding than most of their clients. It's why they are payed. So when they say "We won't cover this aspect of the world we created anymore, tie up the loose threads yourself" it feel like a cheat. I can write my own headcanons about the Golden Road region, inclusive of slavery, but i would much prefer having this done by a professional writer team who is actually good at it.

Except they haven't been good at stuff about slavery from the start. Why do we have to insist they give themselves another chance to screw it?

because they have also shown a lot of improvement over the years, their most recents products are a blast and some, like the Mwangi one, fixed some poor narrative choices of the past in an excellent manner. If this trend continues i can't see why they should not be able to handle slavery appropriately. They have the skill to handle anything else so why not that?

[Ridge]

Maybe it's just me, but Paizo, please don't take Andoran as an overall force for good away from official setting. It can, and SHOULD have it's warts (Former nobles conspiring to seize control, the Lumber Consortium treating workers like #$#$#, etc). I don't understand the accusations of Andoran being America white washed. They're not the same. Andoran is America flavored at most. There's no Manifest Andoran destiny that displaces natives (Unless you count kobolds) and they were anti slavery from the get go. The history, geography, etc has huge differences.

If anything IMO Andoran is most like 'what if the Union states (led by Abolitionists) decided to secede from the Slaver states while also ditching the monarchy both had been bound by' rather than a true cut and paste. Bird imagery aside, any GM can tweak it to be more like a successful French Revolution (You dropped the ball, Galt, sorry), or other break always with some minor research. But at the base of it, Andoran is no more "USA!" than Camelot is real England. It's mythical, not historical, idealized, not glossed over. To a large degree (See the setting book for it's problems) , it's what a democracy should be, rather than many of the REAL western world have to settle for.

And I speak for myself and my gaming group when I say as depressing as the real world is right now, some of us Need that escapism/idealism. Sometimes groups want to play defense of a country worth protecting. We think Andoran is one.

It's why we don't center most of our games in Cheliax.

YMMV

*********

And forgive, I realize the above digression was not completely related to the topic thread, it's just I saw some posts doing a 'Boo, Andoran, boo!' bit and I thought someone should mention some of love the place for our games. I'm perfectly fine with Cayden and other Chaotic Good gods supporting their followers gradually hemming those Asmodeus worshiping slaver jerks to Cheliax confines if that's the official way it's going down. If I get to GM anytime soon I may even run games where the PCs get to be among those who put the nail in the coffin of legal slavery in various areas.

Ironically, I was thinking of running Legacy of Fire, but with a tweak to the mission statement, so that the Pactmasters are experimenting with restoring Kelmarane, and making it a slave free zone to see if those who argue slavery actually hurts trade are right. The PCs might start out as slaves themselves, but get liberated and put on a mission, then in addition to Genie situations, their success can plant the seeds for a new non slaving Katapesh.

[Temperans]

You see I partly disagree.

While yes the overall stories are very much theme park. The way the history in those places is handled is not. To me that makes Golarion very much feel like it only shows a hyper simplified version of history leaving it for GMs and players to expand on it.

A GM can pick almost any point of history in Golarion and find an interesting plot thread that players can do exactly because Paizo has not written the complete history of the world. You can use events as a time marker to day, "oh yes we played a game when X event was happening, but we were doing Y instead".

This is part of why the new handling of slavery is getting back lash. We have been told there is a problem, we have the time markers to when those problems were occurring, but the problems just disappear. No event to time when it ended, not a peep as to the how or why, not even a nod that it was a thing and that people are recovering. The plan is to impose a 100% ban on ever mentioning it again.

It why all the anti-slavery organizations just lose their purpose, with no natural way of showing a change in scope. Fighting against tyranny (or even prisons) is not the same as fighting to free people.

[Veradux21]

MindFl*yer98 wrote:

because they have also shown a lot of improvement over the years, their most recents products are a blast and some, like the Mwangi one, fixed some poor narrative choices of the past in an excellent manner. If this trend continues i can't see why they should not be able to handle slavery appropriately. They have the skill to handle anything else so why not that?

Ironic that there are complaints that the concerns about slavery are stifling the artistic vision of the creatives, now the concern gets turned right around when the creatives decide that they agree with that direction.

I'm not sure why this is still an active argument. Not only did Erik Mona say what they're planning to do, that he agreed with the perspective of the freelancer, but the freelancer wrote back thanking him for his response!

So the better question is why are the folks who are so adamant about slavery in their setting unwilling to let the creative team decide whether or not to include slavery in the setting?

Quoting myself here: "Every DM is a creative story teller, its up to you to decide what you do at your table. Even if you're in the wrong about what you present." If the writers are trusted because they're professionals and they've been "showing improvement" as you put it trust that the team at Paizo are going to do fine, and that the decisions they make are the correct ones for the setting. Otherwise stop griping and write your own setting.

Time to move on folks. ✌️

[Opsylum]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Andoran probably is going to change somewhat because Tar Baphon's route back to Absalom runs right through there, and Cheliax is going to play "nice" as long as that Sword of Damocles is hanging over their heads. So there's going to be an internal tension between "we need to build up the military" and "if we're not going to go to war with Cheliax, we should spend that money on something else."

I'm interested in seeing more of Abrogail Thrune's managerial style in these ongoing stories, actually. She's clever, but "playing nice" doesn't seem to be her style. Like, after news of Tar-Baphon's return came about, fresh from her terrible victory against the Glorious Reclamation, her first tactical moves were to use a recently acquired Worldwound to Hell in her backyard to summon an army of devils on Andoran's border in an obvious attempt at provocation and intimidation. "What? Tar-Baphon's the biggest threat here, don't worry about little ole me. You're going to have an army from Hell at your back in your war against the Tyrant, always right behind you." Simultaneously, Thrune offered a sacred weapon of Iomedae's that she spoiled from the Glorious Reclamation back to that church, only to immediately murder its clergy in the streets for "seditious activity."

If anything, Abrogail is going to use the Whispering Tyrant's return as an excuse to make even more power plays. Abrogail doesn't care about the rest of the world, or even Cheliax — only herself (she's going to Hell anyway, so who cares) — and for this reason she's currently a bigger liability to the front against Tar-Baphon than Razmir. Which is why I think people aren't giving the Whispering Tyrant enough good odds in this upcoming conflict as he deserves. Cheliax is going to sabotage the entire war out of greed and petty vindictiveness. ...And should Tar-Baphon recognize Cheliax as this liability, he's likely to ignore that particular front for the time being and concentrate his armies elsewhere, like Andoran. It's to both Tar-Baphon's and Thrune's advantage to leave each other alone, for now.

[thewastedwalrus]

I think this should be a good idea, having non-hostile interactions with slavers has felt pretty awkward the few times that it's happened in recent APs.

Adventure Paths:

Extinction Curse trying to get some information about some other villain, with a suggested action of purchasing a slave (to free them eventually)

Age of Ashes with slavers attempting to recruit you into the organization (that parties are supposed to refuse)

Definitely makes sense to avoid the topic in the future, there are plenty of other villainous things that can be fought without making a sizable portion of players/potential players uncomfortable.

[Temperans]

thewastedwalrus wrote:

I think this should be a good idea, having non-hostile interactions with slavers has felt pretty awkward the few times that it's happened in recent APs.

** spoiler omitted **

Definitely makes sense to avoid the topic in the future, there are plenty of other villainous things that can be fought without making a sizable portion of players/potential players uncomfortable.

I mean I agree that bad writing is bad. The way it was handled in those AP was messy. But I would not say having non-hostile interactions make something not evil. There are plenty of ways to have non-hostile interaction with evil creatures, that doesn't make them good. (To be good you don't have to be a murder hobo afterall)

But removing interaction is not the same as acknowledging that it is happening, that it happened, or that there are fights to end it. Which is where the stance becomes weird.

[MindFl*yer98]

Veradux21 wrote:

MindFl*yer98 wrote:

because they have also shown a lot of improvement over the years, their most recents products are a blast and some, like the Mwangi one, fixed some poor narrative choices of the past in an excellent manner. If this trend continues i can't see why they should not be able to handle slavery appropriately. They have the skill to handle anything else so why not that?

Ironic that there are complaints that the concerns about slavery are stifling the artistic vision of the creatives, now the concern gets turned right around when the creatives decide that they agree with that direction.

I'm not sure why this is still an active argument. Not only did Erik Mona say what they're planning to do, that he agreed with the perspective of the freelancer, but the freelancer wrote back thanking him for his response!

So the better question is why are the folks who are so adamant about slavery in their setting unwilling to let the creative team decide whether or not to include slavery in the setting?

Quoting myself here: "Every DM is a creative story teller, its up to you to decide what you do at your table. Even if you're in the wrong about what you present." If the writers are trusted because they're professionals and they've been "showing improvement" as you put it trust that the team at Paizo are going to do fine, and that the decisions they make are the correct ones for the setting. Otherwise stop griping and write your own setting.

Time to move on folks. ✌️

Because they decided to leave some pretty important threads hanging to avoid grappling with the issues they cause. This Is the core of the issue, they took an easy way out for them that leaves anyone want a better exploration of those themes unsatisfied. It shifts the effort from them to the customers and that Is not acceptable.

[Veradux21]

MindFl*yer98 wrote:

Veradux21 wrote:

MindFl*yer98 wrote:

because they have also shown a lot of improvement over the years, their most recents products are a blast and some, like the Mwangi one, fixed some poor narrative choices of the past in an excellent manner. If this trend continues i can't see why they should not be able to handle slavery appropriately. They have the skill to handle anything else so why not that?

Ironic that there are complaints that the concerns about slavery are stifling the artistic vision of the creatives, now the concern gets turned right around when the creatives decide that they agree with that direction.

I'm not sure why this is still an active argument. Not only did Erik Mona say what they're planning to do, that he agreed with the perspective of the freelancer, but the freelancer wrote back thanking him for his response!

So the better question is why are the folks who are so adamant about slavery in their setting unwilling to let the creative team decide whether or not to include slavery in the setting?

Quoting myself here: "Every DM is a creative story teller, its up to you to decide what you do at your table. Even if you're in the wrong about what you present." If the writers are trusted because they're professionals and they've been "showing improvement" as you put it trust that the team at Paizo are going to do fine, and that the decisions they make are the correct ones for the setting. Otherwise stop griping and write your own setting.

Time to move on folks. ✌️

Because they decided to leave some pretty important threads hanging to avoid grappling with the issues they cause. This Is the core of the issue, they took an easy way out for them that leaves anyone want a better exploration of those themes unsatisfied. It shifts the effort from them to the customers and that Is not acceptable.

You mean... running the game, being a creative story teller, and telling the story you want at your table is not acceptable?... in a game where that is some of the primary efforts of a DM?

Wowee, i'd love to listen into one of your sessions.

I regularly fill in gaps of AP, I'm sure that's not an uncommon practice.

[Kobold Catgirl]

I literally always thought Katapesh's thing was "pure free markets, pure capitalism", and never even heard that it had a notable enslavement problem until these debates started.

So, like. Just focus it back on that? It's more interesting, anyways.

[MindFl*yer98]

Veradux21 wrote:

MindFl*yer98 wrote:

Veradux21 wrote:

MindFl*yer98 wrote:

because they have also shown a lot of improvement over the years, their most recents products are a blast and some, like the Mwangi one, fixed some poor narrative choices of the past in an excellent manner. If this trend continues i can't see why they should not be able to handle slavery appropriately. They have the skill to handle anything else so why not that?

Ironic that there are complaints that the concerns about slavery are stifling the artistic vision of the creatives, now the concern gets turned right around when the creatives decide that they agree with that direction.

I'm not sure why this is still an active argument. Not only did Erik Mona say what they're planning to do, that he agreed with the perspective of the freelancer, but the freelancer wrote back thanking him for his response!

So the better question is why are the folks who are so adamant about slavery in their setting unwilling to let the creative team decide whether or not to include slavery in the setting?

Quoting myself here: "Every DM is a creative story teller, its up to you to decide what you do at your table. Even if you're in the wrong about what you present." If the writers are trusted because they're professionals and they've been "showing improvement" as you put it trust that the team at Paizo are going to do fine, and that the decisions they make are the correct ones for the setting. Otherwise stop griping and write your own setting.

Time to move on folks. ✌️

Because they decided to leave some pretty important threads hanging to avoid grappling with the issues they cause. This Is the core of the issue, they took an easy way out for them that leaves anyone want a better exploration of those themes unsatisfied. It shifts the effort from them to the customers and that Is not acceptable.

You mean... running the game, being a creative...

You're right, why even bother with setting books at all? What Is the purpose of these things called "AP"? GMs have to do worldbuilding and creative writing anyway. It's a wonder why Paizo even tries to put such useless products on the market. Also no one on these forums has ever complained about having to fill in any gaps, which Is why the most popular products have plenty.

[Kobold Catgirl]

Narrator: This was over Paizo choosing not to publish any more books about slavery.

[MindFl*yer98]

Kobold Catgirl wrote:

I literally always thought Katapesh's thing was "pure free markets, pure capitalism", and never even heard that it had a notable enslavement problem until these debates started.

So, like. Just focus it back on that? It's more interesting, anyways.

"Come to Katapesh, the place where everything Is on sale. If you desire something, no matter how dangerous or exotic you can find It here...except people for some reason".

[Dancing Wind]

MindFl*yer98 wrote:

that Is not acceptable.

What tools do you normally use when reality is not acceptable to you? Will they work in this situation?

[Veradux21]

MindFl*yer98 wrote:

You're right, why even bother with setting books at all? What Is the purpose of these things called "AP"? GMs have to do worldbuilding and creative writing anyway. It's a wonder why Paizo even tries to put such useless products on the market. Also no one on these forums has ever complained about having to fill in any gaps, which Is why the most popular products have plenty.

Good golly, the APs are not a Choose-your-own-adventure book. It is a map to aide the DMs in describing a story. They are not all inclusive step by step walkthroughs of every possible option a player may possibly attempt.

I understand you're just taking my point to its illogical extreme but you've just made my argument for me.

Every session a DM has to ad-lib something they didn't plan. Every session a DM must describe a part of a room or an item left around that was not explicitly stated in the book. Every session a DM must make up a shop, or a path, or something to help guide their players.

If you are 100% reliant on a book for narrative then your sessions are gonna be real short.

I'm not saying that they should have gaps all over, nor that the goals of the APs should not be clear and at least somewhat well guided, but that the DM should be able to bridge those gaps to a reasonable degree. This includes adding slavery if an especially edgy DM just must have slavery in their setting.

edit:added a point.

[Cori Marie]

People sure are mad that they will only have 12 years of products with slavery in them to reference and not a dozen more going forward.

[MindFl*yer98]

Dancing Wind wrote:

MindFl*yer98 wrote:

that Is not acceptable.

What tools do you normally use when reality is not acceptable to you? Will they work in this situation?

Usually, when a company declares some long term project and they have some channels dedicated to receive customer's feedback, It helps to give that feedback. That's half the reason these forum exists. The other half Is the fun of talking about the game with other fans, like we are doing now.

[Kobold Catgirl]

MindFl*yer98 wrote:

"Come to Katapesh, the place where everything Is on sale. If you desire something, no matter how dangerous or exotic you can find It here...except people for some reason".

Sounds fine to me. It's the GM's choice to include that. Otherwise, guess there's not much of a market for it anymore. Maybe Andoran sank too many ships. :)

[Wei Ji the Learner]

I've found any 'fun' had in general terms with very FEW outliers as previously noted 'dealing' with slavery of any sort, including 'Company Store' concepts has been weighed heavily against by the 'not-fun' of how such a horrible thing exists, and loosely parallels my workplace environment.

Sure, you can go find a new job! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

It's interesting that the parallels in this discussion have echoes in reality, with extreme sides pretending to be moderate and moderate sides being portrayed as extremists...

[Berhagen]

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:

I've found any 'fun' had in general terms with very FEW outliers as previously noted 'dealing' with slavery of any sort, including 'Company Store' concepts has been weighed heavily against by the 'not-fun' of how such a horrible thing exists, and loosely parallels my workplace environment.

Sure, you can go find a new job! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

It's interesting that the parallels in this discussion have echoes in reality, with extreme sides pretending to be moderate and moderate sides being portrayed as extremists...

Sorry to hear you being in such a spot. Hard to imagine being in an environment that (even loosely) parallels this type of issue. Hope things improve for you.

[Dancing Wind]

MindFl*yer98 wrote:

The other half Is the fun of talking about the game with other fans, like we are doing now.

♬If you're trolling and you know it, clap your hands!♬

[keftiu]

Kobold Catgirl wrote:

I literally always thought Katapesh's thing was "pure free markets, pure capitalism", and never even heard that it had a notable enslavement problem until these debates started.

So, like. Just focus it back on that? It's more interesting, anyways.

My personal fix? Make Katapesh /weirder/.

It’s run by aliens. You can buy anything there. Don’t play it as just “endless bazaars full of drug dens and slavers, all run by nefarious foreign-types,” but lean into it being a place where those from other worlds and other planes rub shoulders with the wealthy and desperate alike. Want to hire a Shobhad mercenary? Want to try ‘food’ from Aucturn that gives nightmarish visions? Share tea with a psychopomp?

[the nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarh]

Kobold Catgirl wrote:

I agree with TA, but I also think Andoran is a kind of tiresome concept for a country. The lore for it itself might be good, I haven't read a lot of it. I'd like to see them move away from the "Americans' view of themselves" shtick (eagles, "freedom", etc). The America expy being cast as anti-slavery is especially rich.

I don't know how large a fraction of the PF consumer base here is non-USAns who find things that look like USAn exceptionalism tiring at best and that they can slew into feeling actively oppressive, but I would certainly prefer it not to be a thing.

[the nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarh]

Ridge wrote:

Maybe it's just me, but Paizo, please don't take Andoran as an overall force for good away from official setting. It can, and SHOULD have it's warts (Former nobles conspiring to seize control, the Lumber Consortium treating workers like #$#$#, etc). I don't understand the accusations of Andoran being America white washed. They're not the same. Andoran is America flavored at most.

There are some of us who find "America-flavoured" and "overall force for good" a problematic combination in and of itself.

[Ridge]

the nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarh wrote:

Ridge wrote:

Maybe it's just me, but Paizo, please don't take Andoran as an overall force for good away from official setting. It can, and SHOULD have it's warts (Former nobles conspiring to seize control, the Lumber Consortium treating workers like #$#$#, etc). I don't understand the accusations of Andoran being America white washed. They're not the same. Andoran is America flavored at most.

There are some of us who find "America-flavoured" and "overall force for good" a problematic combination in and of itself.

That would be why the qualifier 'at most' is there, along with other stuff about one could have it linger more successful French revolution or others as suits.

[the nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarh]

Kobold Catgirl wrote:

I literally always thought Katapesh's thing was "pure free markets, pure capitalism", and never even heard that it had a notable enslavement problem until these debates started.

There does seem to me to be a verisimilitude issue with a "pure capitalism uber alles" society not having a slave trade, in a setting where there are potential customers for slaves among the unquestionably evil (and Evil).

[keftiu]

the nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarh wrote:

Ridge wrote:

Maybe it's just me, but Paizo, please don't take Andoran as an overall force for good away from official setting. It can, and SHOULD have it's warts (Former nobles conspiring to seize control, the Lumber Consortium treating workers like #$#$#, etc). I don't understand the accusations of Andoran being America white washed. They're not the same. Andoran is America flavored at most.

There are some of us who find "America-flavoured" and "overall force for good" a problematic combination in and of itself.

I personally roll my eyes at Andoran, but my solution is to not care about it, the same way I do for almost every part of Avistan. Outside of Sarkoris and Numeria, there’s just not a lot for me on the continent.

Part of why I’m liking 2e’s focus elsewhere so much.

[the nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarh]

Veradux21 wrote:

I'm not saying that they should have gaps all over, nor that the goals of the APs should not be clear and at least somewhat well guided, but that the DM should be able to bridge those gaps to a reasonable degree. This includes adding slavery if an especially edgy DM just must have slavery in their setting.

There seems to me to be a difference in scale between "we expect DMs to make tactical-scale changes to an AP according to the needs and preferences of their table" and "we have been detailing a major negative social force in our entire campaign world and that is about to vanish."