First off, if my search foo is bad, and this question has already been answered, I apologize, please direct me to the answer!
So my questions are
1) If I am Bard, Cleric, Sorcerer, Wizard or similar class (a spellcaster that uses slots) and I take the Eldritch Archer or Cathartic Mage archetype, which by my reading, makes the cantrip I gain from the dedication feat a part of my spellcsting suite, can I take the archetype spellcasting feats as well?
2) Does this then mean, at the listed levels, I gain an additional slot and spell then, giving say a 20th level Wizard 6 cantrips, and 4 1st through 8th level spells if I take all three of the spellcasting feats?
There is also one at the bottom, that is basically the ones above in one question. I ask a full read before answer these please. I put a lot of thought into this, as it kept me awake for a while!
Below is my reasoning for asking and believing it might be so.
So I was reading the Cathartic Mage, and realized it and eldritch archer have a little ambiguity about when you are a spellcaster that uses spell slots. If you do not cast spells with slots, there is no ambiguity, so I am not asking about that. Or if you are one of these, and later take a spellcasting dedication that uses slots. I only know of these two that have the same wording in the dedication feat at the moment, but there are likely others, or will be.
The dedications state two specific circumstances when take the feat as follows (cathartic mage is identical):
If you don't already cast spells from spell slots, you learn to cast spontaneous spells and gain the Cast a Spell activity. You gain a spell repertoire with one cantrip of your choice, from a spell list of your choice. You choose this cantrip from the common spells on your chosen spell list or from other spells to which you have access on that list. This cantrip must require a spell attack roll. You're trained in spell attack rolls and spell DCs for that tradition. Your key spellcasting ability for these spells is Charisma.
If you already cast spells from spell slots, you learn one additional cantrip from that tradition. If you're a prepared caster, you can prepare this spell in addition to your usual cantrips per day; if you're a spontaneous caster, you add this cantrip to your spell repertoire.
Now, if you are not a spellcaster that uses slots, for instance a Crusader with focus spells or just a non-casting Fighter or Rogue or what not, you gain your own spellcasting suite all based on Charisma. All fine and dandy, no issues here.
However, if you are a spellcaster that uses slots, the way I read it, you gain an additional cantrip that uses your spellcasting suite, and becomes a cantrip of your class. This cantrip also seems not to have the limits that the first circumstance requires: a spell attack roll.
Now, before going to the root of my quandary, here is another tidbit from the Advanced Players Guide, as it is related to the issue:
All spell slots you gain from spellcasting archetypes are subject to the restrictions within the archetype.
For instance, the eldritch archer archetype allows you to pick a spell list when you take its dedication feat.
If you pick arcane spells, the archetype then grants you spell slots you can use only to cast arcane spells from your eldritch archer repertoire, even if you are a sorcerer with occult spells in your sorcerer repertoire.
The second sentence only applies if you are not a spellcaster that uses slot of course. The third sentence would only apply if you were a not a spellcaster that uses slots, say a fighter, who took eldritch archer, then later took the sorcerer archtype. Otherwise, the eldritch archer would be required to use the sorcerer tradition.
But with the first sentence, there are two restrictions, depending on whether or not you are a spellcaster that uses slots. If you are not, no issues. But if you are, then, as stated, it implies that the cantrip becomes part of your previous spellcasting suite, and thus, when you gain spells from the spellcasting feats, so do they.
So, can a spellcster uses slots that takes one of these archetype dedication feat take the spellcasting feats as well, and gain full benefits thereof? Or, even though it is heavily implied that the spells are part of that suite, do they have a separate suite still?
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So I think there is a textual argument that a full caster cannot take the Eldritch Archer spellcasting feats. Here is why:
You gain the basic spellcasting benefits. Each time you gain a spell slot of a new level from this archetype, add a spell of the appropriate spell level to your repertoire, either a common spell of your chosen tradition or another spell of that tradition you have learned or discovered.
So you add the spells "to your repertoire ... of your chosen tradition"
BUT! If you already could cast spells before becoming an EA, you don't have an EA repertoire. Also you never "chose" a tradition. Since you didn't gain a repertoire and you never chose a tradition, the spellcasting feats don't function for you.
That being said, as a GM I would allow it, because its a pretty weak feat for level 8 and the spellcaster in question could be level 8 and have EA and basic spellcasting from a dedication taken at level 2 PLUS another level 6 feat from the same tradition.
Kelseus, thanks for your answer! Much appreciated and it was thought out and not a knee jerk, thanks!
I'd wanna reiterate the way I read these dedication feats, in respect to spellcasters. You are a spellcaster that takes this feat, your spellcasting ability takes over as the dedications spellcasting. The cantrip being added to your cantrips known and your repertoire heavily implies this. I admit, I could be wrong!
So I don't think that would negate the ability of spellcasters to take the spellcasting feat for these dedications. The requirement for the spellcasting feat is having the dedication feat, and not the dedication feats spellcasting ability. If you are a spellcaster, then the effects of the feat would be different if you were a prepared or spontaneous caster. My understanding is, you do not have to qualify for all the benefits of a feat.
Also, the feat only says 'to your repertoire' and not "to your dedication repertoire."
A prepared caster would still gain the first benefit, an addition spell slot of level 1-8, depending on the feat and your level. Since they do not have a repertoire, they would not gain the additional benefit, so I will concede that.
Spontaneous casters, since they have a repertoire, would gain the slots, and the additional spell, as well as the signature spell as well.
Except again, as stated, in the cast of having previous spellcasting ability, your eldritc archer spellcasting ability is your previous spellcasting ability. There is no separate ability. And, nothing in the rules yet says that the eldritch archer spellcasting feats can only betaken if you have an 'eldritch archer spellcasting abiliy" only "The eldritch archer dedication."
In reference to the quote from CR219 does not ally in the SECOND situation. In this situation, say you are a bard, you take eldritch archer. The eldritch archer dedication feat does not give you an eldritch archer spellcastring ability. It uses your bard spellcasting.
"All spell slots you gain from spellcasting archetypes have restrictions depending on the archetype"
In the second case, where a character already casts spells, the archtype applies to that prevous spellcasting ability, and so would the spellcasting feats.
I do not argue that in most other cases, this is not an issue or in the first case of the eldritch archer, where it give you an eldritch archer spellcasting ability. BUT again, there is the second situation, completely separate from the first...the second is not dependent on the first. In this second situation, the archtype uses the previous spellcasting abiliy as the eldritch archer's spellcasting abiliy. There is not a separate one. There is no talk of a separate on in the second situation whatsoever.
Except again, as stated, in the cast of having previous spellcasting ability, your eldritc archer spellcasting ability is your previous spellcasting ability. There is no separate ability. And, nothing in the rules yet says that the eldritch archer spellcasting feats can only betaken if you have an 'eldritch archer spellcasting abiliy" only "The eldritch archer dedication."
In reference to the quote from CR219 does not ally in the SECOND situation. In this situation, say you are a bard, you take eldritch archer. The eldritch archer dedication feat does not give you an eldritch archer spellcastring ability. It uses your bard spellcasting.
"All spell slots you gain from spellcasting archetypes have restrictions depending on the archetype"
In the second case, where a character already casts spells, the archtype applies to that prevous spellcasting ability, and so would the spellcasting feats.
I do not argue that in most other cases, this is not an issue or in the first case of the eldritch archer, where it give you an eldritch archer spellcasting ability. BUT again, there is the second situation, completely separate from the first...the second is not dependent on the first. In this second situation, the archtype uses the previous spellcasting abiliy as the eldritch archer's spellcasting abiliy. There is not a separate one. There is no talk of a separate on in the second situation whatsoever.
So by your reading the Bard is able to take this feat, but the Wizard can't. A Bard has a repertoire, so they can take the feat and get a munch of extra Bard spell slots, but a Wizard, who explicitly does not have a repertoire, doesn't get those spell slots. As Jared already clearly cited, the repertoire referenced in the Archetype feats is for the repertoire granted by the Dedication feat. If you already could cast spells before taking EA dedication, you don't get a new repertoire, you just add one new cantrip per day.
Also, it kind of feels like you already knew the answer you wanted and was hoping to get it here, and now that you didn't you are just arguing some more.
So by your reading the Bard is able to take this feat, but the Wizard can't. A Bard has a repertoire, so they can take the feat and get a munch of extra Bard spell slots, but a Wizard, who explicitly does not have a repertoire, doesn't get those spell slots.
No, any spellcaster would be able to. The spellcasting feats do not require a repertoire. There are basically two benefits of the eldritch archer spellcasting feats. One is, you gain the benefit of basic/expert/master spellcasting. These benefits are spell slots of specific levels at a specific character level, and some other benefits if you have a repertoire. The second benefit is adding spells known to your repertoire. As I mentioned, you do not have to be able to benefit from a feat to take a feat...and you could gain only partial benefit from a feat you take.
Cite a rule that states this. Beyond the initial dedication, the spellcasting feats do not contain any exception to the normal multiclass spellcasting rules.No rule, only, as I believe I have said, the inference that, since you gain a cantrip from the situation, that your previous spellcasting ability is what the feat uses for its spellcasting. Which, I admit is an inference, and up until now, no one has even addressed. My inference is what has led to issue, and I totally get that. And state more below.
Secondly: this is not a thing: eldritch archer spellcastring abilitySure it is. It may not be in the rules, but if your a wizard and have the cleric dedication, you don't write down 'spellcasting ability' and 'spellcasting ability.' You write down 'Wizard Spellcasting Ability' and 'Cleric Spellcasting Ability' maybe one just uses X spellcasting. Or maybe 'arcane spellcasting' or 'divine spellcasting' but its much better to use the specific class 'wizard' or 'cleric' on the off chance you happen to have two divine spellcasting, like say a sorcerer with celestial bloodline and then take cleric dedication. So it is a thing. I have a feeling more people use this kinda specific terminology than not. I used it for a long while, and its also how most of the programs out there define spellcasting abilities.
And you even used the phrase 'eldritch archer repertoire' earlier, which is just another way of saying 'eldritch archer spellcasting' with our without ability tagged onto to it.
You have the Cast a Spell Activity. Yes/NoNot sure where this even comes from in the discussion, sorry. I am not sure of the intent without more explanation.
You have Eldritch archer Spell slots and repertoire.Well, no. As Kelsus points out, you only gain a cantrip.
Also, it kind of feels like you already knew the answer you wanted and was hoping to get it here, and now that you didn't you are just arguing some more.Well, no. I had an opinion that, with available reading material, seemed to say this. I have even been going over it several times, to try to figure it out. Hence the post. I wanted others opinions, and while I got it, only your most recent post has helped to be honest, no offense to either you or Jared meant.
I was looking at the dedication feat to deeply, thinking it meant it did something it didn't do. As mentioned in the original post, I said by my reading, i inferred it, the cantrip becomes part of my previous spellcasting, it does, but then the continued inference was that that made my spellcasting also the eldritch archer's spellcasting.
If you already could cast spells before taking EA dedication, you don't get a new repertoire, you just add one new cantrip per day.This is the key to the revelation. I admit that my inference to the spellcasting was the problem. Even though I have read the other feats of the eldritch archer and cathartic mage before, I was also under the impression that the feats would reference your spellcasting from the dedication.
IF the dedication worked how I thought, then the arrangements I have put forth would be valid, as your previous spellcsting is your spellcasting for eldrtitch archer. But it doesn't.
I realize that all that the dedication does for you, if you have previous spellcasting, is give you an additional cantrip/+ perday or cantrip to repertoire.
Thank you Kelsus for finaly pointing that out, so my mind could undo the inference that I was using. It really was the couple of words that I needed! Honest! Thanks. I got my thinking on it straight now!
So by your reading the Bard is able to take this feat, but the Wizard can't. A Bard has a repertoire, so they can take the feat and get a munch of extra Bard spell slots, but a Wizard, who explicitly does not have a repertoire, doesn't get those spell slots.No, any spellcaster would be able to. The spellcasting feats do not require a repertoire. There are basically two benefits of the eldritch archer spellcasting feats. One is, you gain the benefit of basic/expert/master spellcasting. These benefits are spell slots of specific levels at a specific character level, and some other benefits if you have a repertoire. The second benefit is adding spells known to your repertoire. As I mentioned, you do not have to be able to benefit from a feat to take a feat...and you could gain only partial benefit from a feat you take.
A prior spellcaster doesn't get expert/master spellcasting from the EA spellcasting feats because THEY DIDN'T SELECT A SPELLCASTING TRADITION. You don't have a chosen tradition, so you don't have a spellcasting proficiency for the feat to interact with, because the feat only effects the proficiency granted by the Dedication.
Compare Basic/Expert spellcasting benefit with the Archer dedication, which interacts with your base class proficiency.
