I have two related questions regarding Animal Companions.
First, the "Down" trick states: "The animal breaks off from combat or otherwise backs down. An animal that doesn’t know this trick continues to fight until it must flee (due to injury, a fear effect, or the like) or its opponent is defeated."
Does this mean that once the order to "Attack" is given, or the creature defends itself, it won't respond to other commands that would cause it to stop attacking? Like "Come" or "Heel"? (or even an "Attack" on another creature?)
Secondly, the description of Down says "[..] until it must flee (due to injury, a fear effect, or the like)". This has been bothering me, because I was unable to find any rules that dictate when the animal would flee. Of course there are many spells and other effects that explicitly state that a creature will flee. But the description suggests that sufficient damage or injury would also cause an animal companion to flee?
What amount of damage or injury would cause a handled animal (and an animal companion in particular) to flee from combat?
Thanks,
Grismar.
I've looked for the rules involving an animal forced to flee due to damage but haven't found any as well.
might be a throw back fro the old D&D morale check but I would like to know what PF rues for it are.
I guess it happens when its controller thinks that it should flee. Whether the controller is the GM or the player is supposedly something UCamp clarifies but I have not yet read it.
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I am not aware of specific rules for when animals run away. Obviously, fear effects have specific rules, but running away because they're in pain is entirely up to the GM - if the player tells me that his animal will run away due to pain, I'll usually allow it, unless the animal is barely injured and I think the player is manipulating me or just wrong.
I also generally won't let the animal back into a combat after it ran away. Even if it's healed, or if the player controls it to attack something else - if its "morale" was lowered to the point of flight, it will take magic that improves its "morale" before it will rejoin that fight. There are no rules for this, either, but it seems sensible to me.
Most Creatures will Attempt to Run or flee when they are near Death...
The only time they do not is if they are protecting their Young or some other Motivation...
So for example:
Your pet is fighting a monster and gets hit hard... If its low Hp usually 10% of its health it will retreat...
On the flip Side if it is defending you... It would fight to the death more than likely...
Remember each Animal Companion is technically Stronger and smarter than is kin... So it is going to have its own Personality.
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Grismar wrote: I have two related questions regarding Animal Companions.
First, the "Down" trick states....
Does this mean that once the order to "Attack" is given, or the creature defends itself, it won't respond to other commands that would cause it to stop attacking? Like "Come" or "Heel"? (or even an "Attack" on another creature?)
Technically yes. The idea is that the animal has been trained to focused on attacking and it will only respond to one command to stop. I've yet to see this enforced in any game, but I imagine some GM's do.
Quote: Secondly...what amount of damage or injury would cause a handled animal (and an animal companion in particular) to flee from combat?
For D&D 3.5 there are Rules of the Game Archives which explain many of the rules and how the authors expected them to be used. In one article they suggest that an animal will flee after it has lost between 1/2 and 3/4 of its hit points. The more aggressive the animal, the longer it will fight.
DM_Blake wrote: I also generally won't let the animal back into a combat after it ran away. Even if it's healed, or if the player controls it to attack something else - if its "morale" was lowered to the point of flight, it will take magic that improves its "morale" before it will rejoin that fight. There are no rules for this, either, but it seems sensible to me. Handle Animal Skill:
Handle an Animal: This task involves commanding an animal to perform a task or trick that it knows. If the animal is wounded or has taken any nonlethal damage or ability score damage, the DC increases by 2. If your check succeeds, the animal performs the task or trick on its next action.
If you removed the condition to cause it to flee, it should just be a Handle Animal check to get it to perform the trick you desire from there. Assuming it knows the trick, then it is a DC 10 (+2 if injured) check. Druids and Rangers get +4 to this check with an animal companion.
Sure, Rory, if you use skills or magic or whatever to make the animal do what it does not want to do, that's different of course. I was just referring to the general "OK, my animal runs back in and attacks" behavior - it wouldn't do that, not without being forced through some other game mechanic.
Note that the handle animal skill requires you to use your actions to get the animal to do what it wants - the loss of your own actions justifies overriding the animal's natural inclinations. But just having the animal run in, on its initiative, without requiring the PC to "force" it to do so, seems contradictory to animal behavior.
DM_Blake wrote: Note that the handle animal skill requires you to use your actions to get the animal to do what it wants - the loss of your own actions justifies overriding the animal's natural inclinations. But just having the animal run in, on its initiative, without requiring the PC to "force" it to do so, seems contradictory to animal behavior. Definitely.
Druids and Rangers can do this as a free action. All others soak up the move action to do it.
I'm not entirely certain that other classes that grant animal companions (ex: cavalier) can do this as a free action. Yes, they have an effective druid level for animal companions, but so do rangers. The Handle Animal skill specifies druids and rangers. If a ranger could because of having an effective druid level, then the skill could have said druids, leaving off the ranger bit.
I'm probably reading too much into it in the literal sense. Currently, I would let it be a free action for every animal companion, unless someone knows a better answer for this.
Most other classes that get animal companions are using them as mounts, and therefore use the ride skill to direct their movement.
Any class that grants animal companions "as a druid" will get this ability at the first level of the companion:
Quote: Link (Ex): A druid can handle her animal companion as a free action, or push it as a move action, even if she doesn't have any ranks in the Handle Animal skill. The druid gains a +4 circumstance bonus on all wild empathy checks and Handle Animal checks made regarding an animal companion. I think all of the classes state their class level(usually -3) counts as druid levels for purposes of their animal companion, and thus the Link allows them to use free actions to handle.
Tarantula wrote: Most other classes that get animal companions are using them as mounts, and therefore use the ride skill to direct their movement.
Any class that grants animal companions "as a druid" will get this ability at the first level of the companion:
Quote: Link (Ex): A druid can handle her animal companion as a free action, or push it as a move action, even if she doesn't have any ranks in the Handle Animal skill. The druid gains a +4 circumstance bonus on all wild empathy checks and Handle Animal checks made regarding an animal companion.
Excellent. Thanks!
Hm, ok, thanks for the feedback. I guess it's good to know that I didn't miss any rules at least. I also felt a rule of thumb / house rule was needed to determine when the creature will flee.
What I use now: An animal companion flees once it drops below 2/3 of its HP. The only way to keep it fighting beyond that point is by continuously handling it; effectively the Druid loses a move action each round to have their animal companion keep fighting, or it will flee. As it is damaged, DC increases by 2 per normal rules.
I don't use special rules after it flees, but of course the flee itself needs a duration in principle. I generally assume that the animal flees for the remainder of the battle.
But of course, as long as the druid or anyone with sufficient skill in Handle Animal can still command it, it's possible to get it to attack again. However, without being healed, it will flee again as soon as it is attacked again (regardless of added damage, since it is already below the threshold).
Regarding the "Down" command: I agree that it should work like the rules say technically, but I also noticed that hardly any GM enforces the rule. However, I think this is the main reason that Animal Companions sometimes seem seriously overpowered, especially at lower levels. Not because it costs another "trick slot", but because having to call it "down" before it can "attack" again takes two moves and effectively uses up an entire round for a druid.
A final note on fleeing: I sometimes have the same issues with monsters. At what point does a non-intelligent monster give up? I'm not advocating a complex morale system, but a simple rule of thumb that's tested for balance would be nice. I now solve this on a per-encounter basis, noting the state of mind for a group of creatures beforehand. (opportunistic, hunting, bloodthirsty, .. stuff like that)
Grismar wrote: What I use now: An animal companion flees once it drops below 2/3 of its HP. The only way to keep it fighting beyond that point is by continuously handling it; effectively the Druid loses a move action each round to have their animal companion keep fighting, or it will flee. As it is damaged, DC increases by 2 per normal rules. Why are you forcing the druid to use a move action? His ability is to handle his animal companion as a free action. Sure, require the checks, have the DC increase for damage having been taken. Or, if you are planning on still forcing move actions, make it clear up front that you are using that house rule.
As far as controlling the animal companion goes. Ucamp suggests non-sentient are controlled by the GM and listen to orders given via handle animal, but sentient (int 3+) are controlled by the player.
Grismar wrote:
Does this mean that once the order to "Attack" is given, or the creature defends itself, it won't respond to other commands that would cause it to stop attacking? Like "Come" or "Heel"? (or even an "Attack" on another creature?)
No. There's nothing in the description that suggests it can't follow other commands.
Quote: Secondly, the description of Down says "[..] until it must flee (due to injury, a fear effect, or the like)". This has been bothering me, because I was unable to find any rules that dictate when the animal would flee. Well, when do you have NPC animals say "this is not worth dinner" ?
Quote: What amount of damage or injury would cause a handled animal (and an animal companion in particular) to flee from combat? Usually i'd say when 1 more round will get it dropped. If, if it takes 5 damage a round and has 20 hp its fine with rounds 1 2 and 3 but after that splits.
BigNorseWolf wrote: Grismar wrote:
Does this mean that once the order to "Attack" is given, or the creature defends itself, it won't respond to other commands that would cause it to stop attacking? Like "Come" or "Heel"? (or even an "Attack" on another creature?)
No. There's nothing in the description that suggests it can't follow other commands. Not sure if we are talking about the same thing, but the PRD says this about "Down."
PRD wrote: Down (DC 15): The animal breaks off from combat or otherwise backs down. An animal that doesn't know this trick continues to fight until it must flee (due to injury, a fear effect, or the like) or its opponent is defeated. If we are talking about the same thing, I read that as requiring the animal to know Down in order to get it to stop attacking once it starts. Yes, the animal can follow other commands, but not while it's attacking. It must be first given the Down command.
Are we talking about two different things?
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