Shadow Signet Discussion

[thenobledrake]

Deriven Firelion wrote:

I already showed him how ray of enfeeblement is inferior to a fear spell because the frightened condition is better than enfeeblement.

No you didn't. You showed you prefer the frightened condition over the enfeebled condition.

You didn't "show" that a short-term debuff to nearly everything actually does have a more potent game impact than a long-term debuff that is more specific.

Deriven Firelion wrote:

I have no idea what higher risk-higher reward attack roll spells The Noble Drake is talking about myself.

Compare the spells disintegrate and purple worm sting.

Purple worm sting is more likely to do [i]some[i] damage but its best-case scenario is less dramatic of an impact, where disintigrate is more likely to do nothing (that's the "higher risk" part) but its best-case scenario is a huge pile of damage (that's the "higher reward" part).

[SuperBidi]

Just to see, I've made a quick comparison between a d10 Fighter first + second attack against a True Striked Fire Ray. Same level enemy with high AC and moderate save. For the Fire Ray, I've compared it to AC and to a save.
It's the first time I use Citricking's new tool, so I may have made a mistake in using it (but the numbers seem in line with what I've seen in the past).

Graph

We see that Fire Ray against moderate save is exactly in line with Fire Ray against AC from level 2 to 9 with level 1 being a bit under and level 8 a bit above. Starting at level 10, it starts to get better.

So, in my opinion, this ring is very well built. The choice of level 10 is not random, and the overall effectiveness of spell attack rolls spells seem good. In real situation, the Fighter should have higher damage from flanking, AoOs and feats but the ability to target either Reflex or Fortitude should give you a bonus after level 10. It's nice to see that a level 1 spell + a focus spell gives you competitive damage output.

[Aw3som3-117]

I find it odd how many people are seemingly trying to figure (or have figured out and are commenting on) the "average" difference between having the ring and not having the ring, or the maximum difference, or certain examples, even. After all, couldn't you get that same "bonus" by just... choosing a different spell to cast? If you know a creature's reflex DC is lower, why not just target their reflex DC? The whole "this is a boost and not utility" argument seems to be based on the assumption that all a spellcaster can do is use attack spells that target a creature's AC, and that they don't have any other spells that target things besides AC. It's not a "+6 bonus" in some fights, because in those fights you wouldn't use an attack spell in the first place. The difference is the spell that you'd be using, so unless attack spells are shown to be more powerful than spells that target a save I don't see the issue.

I'm not implying that the item's useless. I think it has it's uses, especially for prepared casters who can't swap out that attack spell they prepared so easily, or for martials with spellcasting dedications who may be very limited on what they can cast, including cantrips. However, in the general case I really don't see the issue.

[thenobledrake]

Aw3som3-117 wrote:

The whole "this is a boost and not utility" argument seems to be based on the assumption that all a spellcaster can do is use attack spells that target a creature's AC, and that they don't have any other spells that target things besides AC.

No, that's not the case.

The assumption that leads to "this is a boost and not utility" is that it takes something that is designed to be inaccurate and makes it significantly more accurate and is doing so in a way that reduces the likelihood that a caster doesn't have just the right thing to target the weakest defense (you know, like how a caster also doesn't always have similarly-leveled spells that target each of the 3 different saves on hand to choose from)

I, at least, would be just as opposed to a ring that let a caster change which save they are targeting with a save-based spell for the same reason; this is supposed to be a right-tool-for-the-job game, not a one-tool-does-everything game.

[SuperBidi]

SuperBidi wrote:

So, in my opinion, this ring is very well built. The choice of level 10 is not random, and the overall effectiveness of spell attack rolls spells seem good. In real situation, the Fighter should have higher damage from flanking, AoOs and feats but the ability to target either Reflex or Fortitude should give you a bonus after level 10. It's nice to see that a level 1 spell + a focus spell gives you competitive damage output.

As a side note, I've added Burn It to the True Striked Fire Ray and it's exactly on par with d10 Fighter first 2 attacks once you get to level 7. It makes me want to play a Goblin Cleric of Ragathiel to burn all these evildoers!!!!

[SuperBidi]

I realized that Oracle's Vision of Weakness will gain quite some power now that you can target saves with spell attack rolls. True Striked Fire Ray on the lowest save deals crazy good damage.
And the top damage dealer is Deity's Strike. With True Strike and Dangerous Sorcery on the lowest save you deal massive single-target damage + area of effect alignment damage.
Only drawback: Your Oracle needs to have a deity... So much against the lore. Also, it's only level 7.

I'm just sad of one thing: There are not that many spell attack rolls. When they were weak, it was not much of a problem. But now that they are playable up to level 20, it's sad to have such a small choice.