Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
If a player has Incredible Initiative and is using the Avoid Notice exploration action, when they roll for initiative, I know that they roll Stealth once and that is their initiative check and their Stealth check to be undetected at the start of battle. Incredible Initiative adds +2 to the initiative check. But is the +2 applied to the Stealth check when comparing it to the enemies' Perception DC to see if they are undetected? Does the GM use two separate Stealth numbers in this case?
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It's pretty easy to take the roll and bump it by two for the I initiative only.
You're intended to apply any circumstance bonuses or penalties from the stealth check to the initiative check. Whether the reverse is true is a little more open ended. However, most of the time when you're Avoiding Notice you'll probably already be getting a +2 circumstance bonus from cover, so the question is moot. Avoid Notice is basically just continuously using Sneak actions, which means for it to work you have to be ending up behind cover or concealment. And cover is more common than concealment.
In the event that there wasn't already cover or concealment to hide behind, Avoid Notice really wouldn't work in the first place.
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An emphatic no.
What next:
Add improved initiative to diplomacy. After all a fight could break out if you fail.
It just opens a can of worms that you can’t close afterwards. If - on occasion - you miss the adjustment - fine. But openly allowing it just starts a slippery slope to be abused.
Thod wrote: An emphatic no.
What next:
Add improved initiative to diplomacy. After all a fight could break out if you fail.
It just opens a can of worms that you can’t close afterwards. If - on occasion - you miss the adjustment - fine. But openly allowing it just starts a slippery slope to be abused.
I think the difference is there's not a mechanical affect to rolling Diplomacy for initiative by RAW, but there is for stealth. (Though it can be used occasionally in a somewhat similar manner-- if players want to roll Request or Coerce to try and prevent a fight, I might have their roll become initiative. If they roll bad, well, they are still trying to talk someone down as they lunge in to stab them.)
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You can roll Diplomacy and crit fail but just 1 vs their will DC, thus pissing them off and starting combat. Would "Incredible Initiative" help in that case?
Answer: No. Your Diplomacy roll would be 1 under but your Initiative would be 1 over. This is totally fine, as Incredible Initiative just improves your reaction time to fights, and doesn't improve anything else you might do with those skills.
Captain Morgan wrote: You're intended to apply any circumstance bonuses or penalties from the stealth check to the initiative check. Whether the reverse is true is a little more open ended. However, most of the time when you're Avoiding Notice you'll probably already be getting a +2 circumstance bonus from cover, so the question is moot. Avoid Notice is basically just continuously using Sneak actions, which means for it to work you have to be ending up behind cover or concealment. And cover is more common than concealment.
In the event that there wasn't already cover or concealment to hide behind, Avoid Notice really wouldn't work in the first place.
Im with Captain Morgan on this one , however the wording of the OP makes me think that they think that while avoiding notice you make 1 roll for Stealth and that becomes their initiative check, but Im fairly suee that isnt the case.
When you Avoid Notice as an exploration activity you make a stealth check and compare the result against perception DCs , if you later go into Encounter mode you make an initiative roll using stealth (which can technically include the +2 from incredible initiative, since it is an initiative roll, (but see above for cover being a circumstance bonus also) and this result is used for the initiative result and also to compare against the Perception DCs. So two rolls have been made, both using stealth, once for Avoid Notice and again when rolling initiative while using Avoid Notice.
With the wording on Avoid Notice id say Incredible Initiative can apply to the stealth check and the same result is used for both initiative and comparing against the Perception DCs (however so does rhe cover bonus
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syrath wrote: When you Avoid Notice as an exploration activity you make a stealth check and compare the result against perception DCs , if you later go into Encounter mode you make an initiative roll using stealth Nope, it's one roll, and you don't make it until you go into encounter mode.
The first sentence of the Avoid Notice exploration action is a topic sentence, not an independent event, and this is noted by there not being any DC stated nor details for roll result categories.
thenobledrake wrote: syrath wrote: When you Avoid Notice as an exploration activity you make a stealth check and compare the result against perception DCs , if you later go into Encounter mode you make an initiative roll using stealth Nope, it's one roll, and you don't make it until you go into encounter mode.
The first sentence of the Avoid Notice exploration action is a topic sentence, not an independent event, and this is noted by there not being any DC stated nor details for roll result categories. Okay lets remove the offending sentence
If you have the Swift Sneak feat, you can move at full Speed rather than half, but you still can’t use another exploration activity while you do so.
If you have the Legendary Sneak feat, you can move at full Speed and use a second exploration activity.
If you’re Avoiding Notice at the start of an encounter, you usually roll a Stealth check instead of a Perception check both to determine your initiative and to see if the enemies notice you (based on their Perception DCs, as normal for Sneak, regardless of their initiative check results).
So after removing the topic sentence our only instructions are if you have swift sneak,, if you have legendary sneak the latter part doesnt come into play unless you are starting an encounter
So what does avoid notice do if you dont have swift or legendary sneak. since it has no instruction if you remove that sentence
The first sentence
You attempt a Stealth check to avoid notice while traveling at half speed
the description for the DC is actually there "You attempt a stealth check"
https://2e.aonprd.com/Skills.aspx?ID=15
For exampke under Hide
You huddle behind cover or greater cover or deeper into concealment to become hidden, rather than observed. The GM rolls your Stealth check in secret and compares the result to the Perception DC of each creature you’re observed by but that you have cover or greater cover against or are concealed from. You gain the circumstance bonus from cover or greater cover to your check.
If you only roll stealth at the init and wanted to avoid combat in the first place when would you ever roll stealth.
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Syrath, I'm really confused as to what you are trying to do there... of course it becomes less clear how something works if you just start pretending things you are told aren't included.
My point is that the part of the first sentence that says "attempt a stealth check to avoid notice" is not a thing that is separate from the using Stealth as your initiative and checking the result against perception DCs of other creatures present; it is a combo of topic and explanation of topic.
Because "you attempt a stealth check" is not actually a specific thing alone just like "you attempt an athletics check" isn't enough information by itself, both need further elaboration as to what the DC is and what the results are going to be which is why you bring up Hide, a complete action that isn't mentioned in this sentence of Avoid Notice - it involves a stealth check, but is not itself the definition of a stealth check.
As for rolling stealth and wanting to avoid combat, it does give you just that possiblity. It does not, however, avoid encounter mode. That's made clear by the following pieces of evidence: the first step of encounter mode is to roll initiative, the only explicit functions of avoid notice are to (usually) roll stealth for initiative and to use that roll to determine your status at the start of encounter mode play, Hide, Sneak, and Seek are all phrased as actions to be used in encounter mode play rather than as exploration or downtime activities.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Hmm...I may not have been running Avoid Notice correctly. I assumed that how the PC was doing it was hanging in the back of the marching order, pressing against the walls, only walking in dim light, ect. She doesn't use cover or states she does, so I haven't been giving the +2 for cover, but I basically was giving the player her option to use Stealth as her initiative every time combat starts anyway (her Perception is a +9 but Stealth is +14 at lvl 5).
Are you saying that if using Avoid Notice, in order to use Stealth as initiative, there MUST be cover or can it be more situational? Like if she says that she is only hanging in the dim light areas so she can be concealed (which would be pointless against creatures with darkvision or low light). Just because a player says "I'm using Avoid Notice as my exploration activity", they don't automatically get Stealth as their initiative check?
Avoid Notice does not require Cover. Nothing in the Exploration activity states that you need cover. You do however make a Stealth check twice. Once when you Avoid Notice, and again when you enter an Encounter. Also, you don't have to use Stealth, it just allows you to use it if you choose.
By RAW, you don't need cover. But consider what is actually happening in the fiction: a character who is trying to avoid being spotted wouldn't just be walking quietly. They would be darting from cover to cover and generally trying to minimize their visibility.
If you aren't using cover or concealment, I don't really see how the character could start the fight unobserved. I suppose someone could use it by RAW to utilize their highest bonus or activate surprise attack, but I don't think I'd let that fly myself
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Yeah I think that's what the player (and myself tbh) thought, that Avoid Notice was basically an auto use of the Stealth skill for an initiative check. I think ya'll are right, and shouldn't be run like that.
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Captain Morgan wrote: By RAW, you don't need cover. But consider what is actually happening in the fiction: a character who is trying to avoid being spotted wouldn't just be walking quietly. They would be darting from cover to cover and generally trying to minimize their visibility.
If you aren't using cover or concealment, I don't really see how the character could start the fight unobserved. I suppose someone could use it by RAW to utilize their highest bonus or activate surprise attack, but I don't think I'd let that fly myself
Agreed, but only if there's no real way to try and conceal yourself in the environment you're in before the combat triggers. Otherwise it's just an adversarial GM plopping an encounter down on you and saying "Well, where you are they'd see you" when they decide when you roll initiative and initiative could've just as easily been rolled slightly earlier, or that the player could be in a slightly different spot / sneaking between 2 spots, etc. The whole point of the activity is to let the GM know "Hey, I'm being sneaky. I may not know what that all entails ooc, and of course at times I'll be moving from one spot of cover to another, but you get the idea, right?" And the GM's supposed to run with that, which "usually" [read: practically always] results in a stealth check for initiative.
In fact, I'd go so far as to say unless you're in the middle of a desert or something like that with wide open spaces, or entering into combat after having purposefully interacted with someone involved (like during conversation) avoid notice should allow you to roll stealth for initiative, and most situations that would result in it not making sense are due to initiative being called too late, essentially meaning that the GM decided for you that your stealth check failed before the combat started and without even rolling for it.
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Cordell Kintner wrote: Avoid Notice does not require Cover. Nothing in the Exploration activity states that you need cover. You do however make a Stealth check twice. Once when you Avoid Notice, and again when you enter an Encounter. Also, you don't have to use Stealth, it just allows you to use it if you choose. Nah, I am pretty sure it is one roll. And one roll makes sense-- otherwise, whose notice are you avoiding with that initial roll?
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
I've read from somewhere else that it is indeed just one roll whenever players enter encounter mode.
mattdusty wrote: I've read from somewhere else that it is indeed just one roll whenever players enter encounter mode. That is correct , however if you go with how I see it you also make a stealth roll to Avoid Notice as an exploration activity in the first place, this is a decision you make before an encounter mode is even accepted as happening. If you are not avoiding notice to begin with you CANNOT use stealth for initiative and are not hidden at the start of combat.
Even if your stealth roll is beaten by the Perception DC of your opponent any feat which mentions (if you rolled stealth for initiative , often followed by opponents who have not acted yet also applies,
So order of events
During exploration you announce you are using Avoid Notice
You now make a stealth check to remain unnoticed in exploration. Now assuming you are on your own you now say that you've sneaked up on a guard by avoiding notice (moving at half speed unless you have swift sneak)
You fail the stealth check , you are spotted and nk longer avoiding notice and combat starts using perception for initiative only.
You succeed the stealth check , you are nor spotted and you can now choose to (but do not have to) roll stealth for initative and if you do and have surprise attack anyone who you act before is now flatfooted to you.
The same stealth check that was used for initiative is also used vs your opponents perception dc to see if you remain hidden at the start of combat and note that to remain hidden you have to be still under cover, if you are stopped in the open you are no longer hidden and if you attack you are no longer hidden. As per Hide under stealth this applies in encounter or exploration mode
If you successfully become hidden to a creature but then cease to have cover or greater cover against it or be concealed from it, you become observed again
So stopping out in the open while avoiding notice requires you to get back out of sight (by being invisible or going back into cover and avoidinf notice again assuming an encounter hasnt already started at which time you can hide , but not use the avoid notice activity, so again if you get spotted out in the open before the encounter starts you will be rolling perception only for initiative.
Or at least that is how I understand it.
One Stealth roll for both is how I see it. If you beat their Perception, either you stay hidden and sneak by them unnoticed and no encounter even begins, or you spring from your hiding place to attack first.
If their Perception is higher, they saw you coming and act first.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
The Raven Black wrote: One Stealth roll for both is how I see it. If you beat their Perception, either you stay hidden and sneak by them unnoticed and no encounter even begins, or you spring from your hiding place to attack first.
If their Perception is higher, they saw you coming and act first.
Yeah, I think this is generally how it works. But what if the PCs have Incredible Initiative? What if you rolled a 25 for your Stealth Initiative (incorporating the +2 for the feat) and the enemy rolls a 24 Perception initiative. You get to go first.....BUT are you hidden? Does that +2 (that specifically ONLY refers to initiative checks) also apply to your Stealth check to stay hidden? Do you have a 25 Initiative but only a 23 to stay hidden?
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I would say 23 for Stealth and 25 for Initiative in this very specific (trumps general) case. They see you coming but your instincts are so well-honed that even then you have a chance to be faster than them on the draw.
mattdusty wrote: The Raven Black wrote: One Stealth roll for both is how I see it. If you beat their Perception, either you stay hidden and sneak by them unnoticed and no encounter even begins, or you spring from your hiding place to attack first.
If their Perception is higher, they saw you coming and act first.
Yeah, I think this is generally how it works. But what if the PCs have Incredible Initiative? What if you rolled a 25 for your Stealth Initiative (incorporating the +2 for the feat) and the enemy rolls a 24 Perception initiative. You get to go first.....BUT are you hidden? Does that +2 (that specifically ONLY refers to initiative checks) also apply to your Stealth check to stay hidden? Do you have a 25 Initiative but only a 23 to stay hidden? My understand is that it still doesn't work like this.
So you roll 25 for stealth (inc. incredible initiative). Opponent rolls 24. You go first.
BUT, then the 23 Stealth (exc. incred. init.), is vs. the opponents Perception DC. So what if that same opponent only has +5 Percepction (so rolled a 19 to get 24), then the perception DC is 15, and you are hidden. OR, that opponent has +14 Perception (so rolled an 10 to get 24), then the perception DC is 24, and you are NOT hidden.
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syrath wrote:
So order of events
During exploration you announce you are using Avoid Notice
You now make a stealth check to remain unnoticed in exploration.
Except that is not how it works RAW, because at that point there is nothing to check against.
You could declare you are avoiding notice, roll a die, and then the result literally never actually do anything because the direction you end up going there aren't any creatures to potentially notice you.
You roll the die only once it does actually matter, just like you roll (or the GM rolls, whichever way your table does it) Perception for your Search exploration activity upon the event of being near something to actually discover - the rules do not tell the GM to roll, jot the number down for future use or commit it to memory, then check back on it in the event of circumstances making that not a wasted effort.
syrath wrote: You fail the stealth check , you are spotted and nk longer avoiding notice and combat starts using perception for initiative only. This bit is a house-rule at best, and is directly at odds with the Avoid Notice action saying that your Stealth check is also your initiative result.
It also creates the situation by which if a player rolls poorly on Stealth while avoiding notice you're giving them a second chance to get a higher initiative result which means you're handing them an advantage not described in the rules - and if you did the same Stealth to be hidden and Perception to actually determine your initiative ruling when they did roll high for Stealth, you'd be dramatically cutting down their chance to have a high initiative result (illustrative math: if they have a 50% chance of succeeding at stealth and a 50% chance of beating their opponent's initiative roll, they have a 25% chance of doing both at the same time if you make them roll them independently; flipside being if high stealth = high initiative and low stealth = roll perception for initiative that's basically the same as a free hero point to use on initiative earned for rolling low on stealth.)
There is a dc for the check, have a look under the stealth skill
If you specifically look under hide , sneak etc there is an instruction how to make that stealth check, eg hide is a follows
You huddle behind cover or greater cover or deeper into concealment to become hidden, rather than observed. The GM rolls your Stealth check in secret and compares the result to the Perception DC of each creature you’re observed by but that you have cover or greater cover against or are concealed from. You gain the circumstance bonus from cover or greater cover to your check.
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syrath wrote: There is a dc for the check, have a look under the stealth skill
If you specifically look under hide , sneak etc there is an instruction how to make that stealth check, eg hide is a follows
You huddle behind cover or greater cover or deeper into concealment to become hidden, rather than observed. The GM rolls your Stealth check in secret and compares the result to the Perception DC of each creature you’re observed by but that you have cover or greater cover against or are concealed from. You gain the circumstance bonus from cover or greater cover to your check.
Except when you encounter a creature that you'd want to hide from, you roll initiative. If you roll high enough (and so does everyone else in your party) you may be entirely unnoticed and choose not to attack the thing... But the initiative roll is what determines if you're noticed at all. The only exception I can think of is Quiet Allies, where the rest of the party holds off rolling until you see if the lowest score person gets spotted.
Captain Morgan
Not everyone wants to be undetected / wants to use Stealth.
Typical situations I have GMed many times:
Ranger uses his cloak of Elvenkind - goes invisible while the rest of the group triggers.
Magic trickster stays out of side while the rest of the r group triggers the encounter by opening the door.
I’m often in a situation where avoid notice is auto success. I don’t even bother to ask the player to roll for it. But he/she still needs initiative.
Yes - I use 3D terrain as well as dynamic lighting. This means part of the group can be out of side. Both monsters and players.
I often have players going around a corner and say - oh - there are more. It also means a single char is without cover against monster A but out of sight for monster B.
I allow Stealth as initiative if player declare it ahead (default is perception) and if they try in some way to be stealthy.
If they (I) roll to be unnoticed depends.
Out of sight - auto success
Monster with chemical sense while you hide behind a desk with open door behind you - auto fail
Invisibility - often auto success - especially if you have loud and visible allies attacking at the same time
Invisibility - but the monster had true seeing / tremor sense? Oh - I let you believe you succeeded.
At my table declaring Avoid Notice has a dual purpose: a) someone truly wants to avoid notice b) someone declares he wants to use Stealth as initiative for the next encounter
There is also the issue of secret checks vs a player likes to roll a dice. A player might not like if I apply his secret check done 5 minutes earlier to his initiative.
So one roll, two rolls, secret GM roll, open player roll?
It depends. And if I did a secret GM roll earlier then I always allow the player to roll him/herself for initiative again.
Captain Morgan wrote:
Except when you encounter a creature that you'd want to hide from, you roll initiative. If you roll high enough (and so does everyone else in your party) you may be entirely unnoticed and choose not to attack the thing... But the initiative roll is what determines if you're noticed at all. The only exception I can think of is Quiet Allies, where the rest of the party holds off rolling until you see if the lowest score person gets spotted. I think you misunderstood me here this was in reply to thenobledrakes post directly before, he also makes comment about a "house rule" when the part he quotes is directly from the rules for HIDE.
So in Encounter mode
https://2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=511
the only part that isnt qualified with if is this.
You attempt a Stealth check to avoid notice while traveling at half speed
So during exploration mode when you declare you are avoiding notice you make a stealth check
Under the instructions for Stealth (skill) you have 3 things you can do Hide, sneak, conceal an item, the last of which isnt applicable for this example
https://2e.aonprd.com/Skills.aspx?ID=15
Under hide you can see the rules that include the "at best this is a house rule part" that thenobledrake mentions in the directly previous post.
Thod wrote: Captain Morgan
Not everyone wants to be undetected / wants to use Stealth.
Typical situations I have GMed many times:
Ranger uses his cloak of Elvenkind - goes invisible while the rest of the group triggers.
Magic trickster stays out of side while the rest of the r group triggers the encounter by opening the door.
I’m often in a situation where avoid notice is auto success. I don’t even bother to ask the player to roll for it. But he/she still needs initiative.
Yes - I use 3D terrain as well as dynamic lighting. This means part of the group can be out of side. Both monsters and players.
I often have players going around a corner and say - oh - there are more. It also means a single char is without cover against monster A but out of sight for monster B.
I allow Stealth as initiative if player declare it ahead (default is perception) and if they try in some way to be stealthy.
If they (I) roll to be unnoticed depends.
Out of sight - auto success
Monster with chemical sense while you hide behind a desk with open door behind you - auto fail
Invisibility - often auto success - especially if you have loud and visible allies attacking at the same time
Invisibility - but the monster had true seeing / tremor sense? Oh - I let you believe you succeeded.
At my table declaring Avoid Notice has a dual purpose: a) someone truly wants to avoid notice b) someone declares he wants to use Stealth as initiative for the next encounter
There is also the issue of secret checks vs a player likes to roll a dice. A player might not like if I apply his secret check done 5 minutes earlier to his initiative.
So one roll, two rolls, secret GM roll, open player roll?
It depends. And if I did a secret GM roll earlier then I always allow the player to roll him/herself for initiative again.
Sorry for tthe double post, but to answer this a bit more dirextly.
I've been trying to say to the OP was that from reading the post I felt that they rolled once for stealth when the players decide to avoid notice and then use that result for the initiative roll.
What l am trying to say is that you make a Stealth skill (hide) when you avoid notice , but when it comes to starting an encounter you make a different singular roll that covers both stealth and initiative (and since this is an initiative roll you would be allowed to use incredible initiative, although as you point out that they likely benefit from cover is a moot point since you have a +2 to the roll minimum from the cover that and that is also a circumstance bonus, so it is likely to be as good if not better than the bonus provided by incredible initiative,
Now if you succeed on the first check(Avoid Notice stealth check) you avoid notice and can likely choose to avoid combat if the party/player wishes but once combat starts (likely if the party chooses to) then the player can choose to roll stealth for initiative and if the perceptopn dcs are higher they are no longer hidden, but they can still benefit from things like surprise attack , but they could also roll higher than the Perception DC and remain hidden.
Now that latter case is actually unlikely, for one simple reason, if they were spotted at the Avoid Notice srage they cannot roll srealth for initiative as they are not Avoiding Notice at the start of combat. And if they dont want to start combat they dont have to start an encounter but they could change their mind by declaring combat , they all roll high on initiative, remain undetected and slink back into exploration mode, but since they choose to initiate combat id be annoyed as a GM for having everyone roll initiative when it wasnt necessary.
For reference though the section is on thr GM guide
When one or both sides of an impending battle are being stealthy, you’ll need to deal with the impacts of Stealth on the start of the encounter. Anyone who’s Avoiding Notice should attempt a Stealth check for their initiative. All the normal bonuses and penalties apply, including any bonus for having cover. You can give them the option to roll Perception instead, but if they do they forsake their Stealth and are definitely going to be detected.
To determine whether someone is undetected by other participants in the encounter, you still compare their Stealth check for initiative to the Perception DC of their enemies. They’re undetected by anyone whose DC they meet or exceed. So what do you do if someone rolls better than everyone else on initiative, but all their foes beat their Perception DC? Well, all the enemies are undetected, but not unnoticed. That means the participant who rolled high still knows someone is around, and can start moving about, Seeking, and otherwise preparing to fight. The characters Avoiding Notice still have a significant advantage, since that character needs to spend actions and attempt additional checks in order to find them. What if both sides are sneaking about? They might just sneak past each other entirely, or they might suddenly run into one another if they’re heading into the same location.
So using the above a player remains hidden but detected if they roll low on the initiative/stealth check. So i was wrong about them no longer being hidden
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syrath wrote: There is a dc for the check, have a look under the stealth skill
If you specifically look under hide , sneak etc there is an instruction how to make that stealth check, eg hide is a follows
You are demonstrating that there is not a DC for the check when you say I should look under completely different rules elements to find it.
I don't have to check other activities that use the same skill for any other case, so why does this one get free reign to only function if a GM inserts the DC-determining details of a different action?
Answer: It doesn't, and that's how I am 100% certain that the rule doesn't work the way people that read it as being 2 different checks are reading it as working.
thenobledrake wrote: syrath wrote: There is a dc for the check, have a look under the stealth skill
If you specifically look under hide , sneak etc there is an instruction how to make that stealth check, eg hide is a follows
You are demonstrating that there is not a DC for the check when you say I should look under completely different rules elements to find it.
I don't have to check other activities that use the same skill for any other case, so why does this one get free reign to only function if a GM inserts the DC-determining details of a different action?
Answer: It doesn't, and that's how I am 100% certain that the rule doesn't work the way people that read it as being 2 different checks are reading it as working. So given the section i quote from the gm guide, all you need to do is be hidden at the start of combat is avoid notice . Even if your initiative(stealth) roll is 1 you are hidden (though detected) at the start of combat. So given the rules below you can never fail to hide as long as you Avoid Notice before combat you start either undetected or hidden. No stealth check required as you succeed even when you roll below the Perception DC. As per below.
Edit as for having to look.elsewhere for rules i had to get the rules described on page 468 for initiative, for what happens if you roll for stealth and roll lower or higher than your opponents Perception DC on page 11 of the GM guide ive found that unfortunately the rules are all over the place.
When one or both sides of an impending battle are being stealthy, you’ll need to deal with the impacts of Stealth on the start of the encounter. Anyone who’s Avoiding Notice should attempt a Stealth check for their initiative. All the normal bonuses and penalties apply, including any bonus for having cover. You can give them the option to roll Perception instead, but if they do they forsake their Stealth and are definitely going to be detected.
To determine whether someone is undetected by other participants in the encounter, you still compare their Stealth check for initiative to the Perception DC of their enemies. They’re undetected by anyone whose DC they meet or exceed. So what do you do if someone rolls better than everyone else on initiative, but all their foes beat their Perception DC? Well, all the enemies are undetected, but not unnoticed. That means the participant who rolled high still knows someone is around, and can start moving about, Seeking, and otherwise preparing to fight. The characters Avoiding Notice still have a significant advantage, since that character needs to spend actions and attempt additional checks in order to find them. What if both sides are sneaking about? They might just sneak past each other entirely, or they might suddenly run into one another if they’re heading into the same location.
Ill repeat the important part here
So what do you do if someone rolls better than everyone else on initiative, but all their foes beat their Perception DC? Well, all the enemies are undetected, but not unnoticed.
So, if what you say is correct, then someone at level 1 , untrained in stealth with a 6 DEX , and wearing full plate is going to go into combat hidden against a level 20 investigator and no roll will change that as the only two results are lower than Perception DC you are detected but still Hidden, and higher you remain undetected altogether.
In fact going further that same person standing in bright daylight in the middle of open ground with no cover just needs to declare they are avoiding notice and they start combat hidden and get the benefits of sneak attack even if they roll a 1 for the initiative(stealth) check (as they are hidden)
If you’re Avoiding Notice at the start of an encounter, you usually roll a Stealth check instead of a Perception check both to determine your initiative and to see if the enemies notice you (based on their Perception DCs, as normal for Sneak, regardless of their initiative check results).
Core Rulebook (479)
Normal sneak rules apply for initiative. Which means
A) you need some kind of cover or concealment or it automatically crit fails.
B) a normal failure makes you hidden.
C) a critical failure makes you observed.
It is hard to remember the distinction between B and C. If the hidden party fails their initiative sneak check, they can still treat the enemy as flatfooted, get the 50% mischance, and can even sneak away without ever being properly seen.
That last one is fun because it leaves the enemy wondering if there actually was something after all.
syrath wrote: So, if what you say is correct, then someone at level 1 , untrained in stealth with a 6 DEX , and wearing full plate is going to go into combat hidden against a level 20 investigator and no roll will change that as the only two results are lower than Perception DC you are detected but still Hidden, and higher you remain undetected altogether. That is a very detailed and highly specific straw man that you have built.
And no, what you're describing there is not going to be a hidden stealth-terrible character; 1d20-5 vs. 1d20+20 something (or more) is going to have a result of "you aren't hidden because you didn't beat their Perception DC, and you go after they do, too."
Captain Morgan wrote: If you’re Avoiding Notice at the start of an encounter, you usually roll a Stealth check instead of a Perception check both to determine your initiative and to see if the enemies notice you (based on their Perception DCs, as normal for Sneak, regardless of their initiative check results).
Core Rulebook (479)
Normal sneak rules apply for initiative. Which means
A) you need some kind of cover or concealment or it automatically crit fails.
B) a normal failure makes you hidden.
C) a critical failure makes you observed.
It is hard to remember the distinction between B and C. If the hidden party fails their initiative sneak check, they can still treat the enemy as flatfooted, get the 50% mischance, and can even sneak away without ever being properly seen.
That last one is fun because it leaves the enemy wondering if there actually was something after all.
Thanks for that although the results for sneak and hide are actually on page 251-252 this is what happena when I rely on archives of nethys for checking rules , i completely missed the beimg stealthy box out on page 251.
So if the group can remain undetected by their opponent they can theoretically avoid getting close enough to start the encounter if they roll high enough on their original stealth check to Avoid Notice but if they then have to get close enough to start an encounter they roll initiative, can then remain sneaking and if they roll high enough on that stealth check them they could theoretically remain undetected while they get past their opponent. Thanks @Captain Morgan
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thenobledrake wrote: You are demonstrating that there is not a DC for the check when you say I should look under completely different rules elements to find it. In a better, even reasonably, organized rule set I might agree with that premise, but as much as I love PF2, the Core Rulebook is an organizational nightmare with related information spread haphazardly all over its hundreds of pages.
That said, I agree with you completely that there is no call to roll a Stealth check to Avoid Notice unless and until Encounter Mode happens.
Luke Styer wrote: thenobledrake wrote: You are demonstrating that there is not a DC for the check when you say I should look under completely different rules elements to find it. In a better, even reasonably, organized rule set I might agree with that premise, but as much as I love PF2, the Core Rulebook is an organizational nightmare with related information spread haphazardly all over its hundreds of pages.
That said, I agree with you completely that there is no call to roll a Stealth check to Avoid Notice unless and until Encounter Mode happens.
There are organizational issues, I won't deny that. The majority of them are extremely minor, and the result of the book being already too large to sustain also being consistent and providing helpful reminders of already established information.
There aren't, however, many if any cases in which someone needs to have read something besides the rule element they are actually looking at and the rules elements explicitly mentioned in that section.
Ill continue to run it the way i do for avoid notixe though it may well be that the same setealth roll is then used ro determine initiative, whcih i will concedde iant clear.
Thod wrote: An emphatic no.
What next:
Add improved initiative to diplomacy. After all a fight could break out if you fail.
It just opens a can of worms that you can’t close afterwards. If - on occasion - you miss the adjustment - fine. But openly allowing it just starts a slippery slope to be abused.
I'm not really convinced it works either, but slippery slope arguments kinda stink.
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