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Hello! I mentioned this in the Arcforge thread, but while that project is getting sorted out with some publisher related issues, I'll be running a short playtest for Drop Dead Studio's Vigilantes of Skybourne!
Included in this release are the Luchador hybrid class, new vigilante archetypes, new vigilante racial archetypes for the Skybourne races, new prestige classes, new vigilante Specialties, new vigilante talents including Mutations that grant your vigilante sphere-based super-powers, new social talents, and Vigilante FCBs for the Skybourne races.
I think we'll be running the playtest for about a week, and there will be a couple updates with new materials that haven't been included in the document yet, as well as any feedback based changes that need to be made.
Soooo.... Have fun and let me know what you think! Feed back, whether grammatical, mechanical, interested, or unimpressed, is always welcome and appreciated.
This is pretty sweet! I cannot wait to see how Vigilantes of Skybourne develops.
As for the Luchador, it is a little funky that Professional Wrestler says that the Luchador gains Greater Grappler at 5th level and Rapid Grappler at 9th, yet those are still listed later in the class as separate class features.
Submission Specialist, En Fuego, The Chair and Aerial Takedown are really fun rules. I feel like you captured wrestling here.
Inspiring Vigilante is probably my favorite archetype in this book. I couldn't help but think of All Might when reading this. I feel like this archetype encapsulates the most important features that any symbol of justice needs. I can't wait to run it!
The Iron Lord archetype feels like it is getting a lot from its 2nd level talent. Also, I do not see a way for the Iron Lord to change their armor. How do they change their armor from medium to heavy once they take a talent to gain the proficiency?
I will cover more of the document later, but I am really hyped for what is to come!
Good to have some temporary free Skybourne vigilantism. ;)
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This is pretty sweet! I cannot wait to see how Vigilantes of Skybourne develops.
Glad you're liking it so far!
As for the Luchador, it is a little funky that Professional Wrestler says that the Luchador gains Greater Grappler at 5th level and Rapid Grappler at 9th, yet those are still listed later in the class as separate class features.
I've been feeling like the luchador could use some more "pick an option" features; the class is a little rail-roady right now once you've selected your stable. Maybe I could add a couple vigilante talents where Greater Grappler and Rapid Grappler are currently listed?
Submission Specialist, En Fuego, The Chair and Aerial Takedown are really fun rules. I feel like you captured wrestling here.
You do what you can :)
Inspiring Vigilante is probably my favorite archetype in this book. I couldn't help but think of All Might when reading this. I feel like this archetype encapsulates the most important features that any symbol of justice needs. I can't wait to run it!
Really glad you like it! I was actually thinking of the vigilante's suit as a symbol, Captain American style, and kind of based it off the idea that the vigilante was basically a living flag.
The Iron Lord archetype feels like it is getting a lot from its 2nd level talent. Also, I do not see a way for the Iron Lord to change their armor. How do they change their armor from medium to heavy once they take a talent to gain the proficiency?
It is a pretty strong choice, but Vigilante talents are typically worth 2+ feats, and I didn't think that a suit of armorist armor should cost more than an animal companion. I'll make a few adjustments to the wording to clarify your last question there.
I will cover more of the document later, but I am really hyped for what is to come!
Awesome, thank you for your feedback!
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What do people think of the name "Inspiring Vigilante" for that archetype? Would "Living Flag/Symbol/Banner" be better?
I think Living Symbol is the best choice, but Banner is great too.
So the Sky Marine sounds pretty awesome. What was the inspiration behind it? I am feeling some Mad Max going on, but I get the feeling there is something more. Very cool though. Airship support in a skybourne book is a must! Glad to see it here. The Sky Marine's Companion Ship table lists "enchantment" at 13th level. What is this? Also, Skilled Pilot is not on the table.
Overwatch is a pretty simple archetype, but its simply awesome. Getting a bird with a gopro is excellent. Being compatible with the Inspiring Vigilante is a plus! Having a pet eagle is super inspiring.
This close reading is going slowly, but I intend to continue again tomorrow. I look forward to what I read next.
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What do people think of the name "Inspiring Vigilante" for that archetype? Would "Living Flag/Symbol/Banner" be better?I think Living Symbol is the best choice, but Banner is great too.
Noted!
So the Sky Marine sounds pretty awesome. What was the inspiration behind it? I am feeling some Mad Max going on, but I get the feeling there is something more. Very cool though. Airship support in a skybourne book is a must! Glad to see it here. The Sky Marine's Companion Ship table lists "enchantment" at 13th level. What is this? Also, Skilled Pilot is not on the table.
Skilled Pilot replaced Enchanted. I've updated the table.
Overwatch is a pretty simple archetype, but its simply awesome. Getting a bird with a gopro is excellent. Being compatible with the Inspiring Vigilante is a plus! Having a pet eagle is super inspiring.
Yeah, I figured you needed a way to play that "eyes in the sky" Falcon type character on a vigilante :)
This close reading is going slowly, but I intend to continue again tomorrow. I look forward to what I read next.
Thanks for looking through it!
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Update:
Added the Secret Police archetype.
Added the "Repurpose" class feature to the Reimagined archetype.
Added new feats.
Added the Prophesied vigilante Specialty.
Updated the Sky Marine.
Updated the luchador with new bonus feats and expanded stable benefits.
Currently on track to wrap playtesting and development sometime between the 30th of this month and the 8th of July.
The secret police archetype is looking mighty fine, though I feel that some of its abilities need adjusting. Their sending SLA can send to anyone, as opposed to their boss. I feel that if they are to get a spell like sending at first level it should have a few restrictions. Also, with judgment they are getting a pretty good damage or accuracy steroid at the cost of a talent. I feel uncomfortable with this, but without playtesting I can't confirm my suspicions. The free ring of deflection is nice, especially since it basically gives the class its ring slot back.
I love the new Luchador bonus feats and stable benefits. The only one I am not feeling is the bullrush strike on the sumo specialty. It won't come up often. I would rather have an ability that synergizes well with previous sumo abilities, such as getting to vital strike on AoOs or adding your Submission Specialist damage to the combat maneuvers matching with the sumo's bonus feats.
Repurpose on the reimagined archetype is great. Adding additional daily uses helps a lot.
Of the converted archetypes, only the cabalist lists the number of spell points.
Tertiary identity is looking pretty slick. I love the versatility and role play options it can give!
As for Shoulder Throw, is there an associated attack roll with it? Or is it more like a round 2 constrict?
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The secret police archetype is looking mighty fine, though I feel that some of its abilities need adjusting. Their sending SLA can send to anyone, as opposed to their boss. I feel that if they are to get a spell like sending at first level it should have a few restrictions. Also, with judgment they are getting a pretty good damage or accuracy steroid at the cost of a talent. I feel uncomfortable with this, but without playtesting I can't confirm my suspicions. The free ring of deflection is nice, especially since it basically gives the class its ring slot back.
I'll look over the sending option, see what we can't do to make it fit better at the level it comes online.
I love the new Luchador bonus feats and stable benefits. The only one I am not feeling is the bullrush strike on the sumo specialty. It won't come up often. I would rather have an ability that synergizes well with previous sumo abilities, such as getting to vital strike on AoOs or adding your Submission Specialist damage to the combat maneuvers matching with the sumo's bonus feats.
I think that's an awesome idea, and I've incorporated it.
Repurpose on the reimagined archetype is great. Adding additional daily uses helps a lot.
I really felt like that archetype needed just a bit more, I'm glad you like the changes!
Of the converted archetypes, only the cabalist lists the number of spell points.
That's on my fix list, thanks for pointing it out!
Tertiary identity is looking pretty slick. I love the versatility and role play options it can give!
Hopefully with the other options you have it can really kick your abilities as a social chameleon up a notch.
As for Shoulder Throw, is there an associated attack roll with it? Or is it more like a round 2 constrict?
The idea is that the grapple check you just succeeded on takes the place of your attack roll for the unarmed strike, so you're not having to make so many consecutive attack rolls to use your abilities.
Spheres vigilantes! Luchador abilities like en fuego and high flyer feel like they should be available earlier and then increase with level. Secret police get Sending at 1st level? Isn't that a 4th level spell? Even if its not very good as 4th level spell it should probably have limits. Can sky marine get more ship abilities? I know its got other stuff but that table has too many empty spots. I like enigma a lot X-men for pathfinder!
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Spheres vigilantes!
Inorite!!!
Luchador abilities like en fuego and high flyer feel like they should be available earlier and then increase with level.
You're not the first to say so, and I'm looking at making stables matter more from 1st level on and breaking some of the abilities up so they scale over time more.
Secret police get Sending at 1st level? Isn't that a 4th level spell? Even if its not very good as 4th level spell it should probably have limits.
Noted and being addressed.
Can sky marine get more ship abilities? I know its got other stuff but that table has too many empty spots.
I can definitely look into it, but the ship is a pretty nice perk already.
I like enigma a lot X-men for pathfinder!
I thought we needed some cool super-powered vigilantes, and using sphere magic as a base seemed like the best way to give the broadest array of options. I'm glad you like it!
The idea is that the grapple check you just succeeded on takes the place of your attack roll for the unarmed strike, so you're not having...
Okay. Shoulder Toss makes a great feat for the Luchador, especially since they have medium BAB to worry about. That feat lets them get around it somewhat. Pretty nice.
I enjoy the new heavy handed ability for the Sumo. I am with Desha when it comes to stable benefits and I am glad that you will be addressing them. I look forward to whatever comes of Stables in the future since they are definitely what makes the Luchador awesome for me.
I didn't see the Speedster talent last time I looked. Way cool! Vigilante will always be famous for its superhero support huh?
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The idea is that the grapple check you just succeeded on takes the place of your attack roll for the unarmed strike, so you're not having...Okay. Shoulder Toss makes a great feat for the Luchador, especially since they have medium BAB to worry about. That feat lets them get around it somewhat. Pretty nice.
Yeah, one of the things with grappling is that it's usually an all or nothing proposition. You either dominate your opponent and tie them into a pretzel, or they get loose at one of their many opportunities to do so and all your actions up to that point have largely just been wasted. I really wanted to add a bunch more ways to make wrestling a dynamic and exciting experience in game.
I enjoy the new heavy handed ability for the Sumo. I am with Desha when it comes to stable benefits and I am glad that you will be addressing them. I look forward to whatever comes of Stables in the future since they are definitely what makes the Luchador awesome for me.
Awesome :)
I actually did a new draft on the stables the other night, and I ended up realizing that I went a bit overboard and will be redoing the materials before I add them to the playtest. I wanted to give sumos the Powerful Build racial trait, and I had that slotted at 1st level but realized that that made sumos way too front-loaded and dip friendly. I think instead I'm going to give them a minor scaling bonus to CMD vs. maneuvers that would move them (Bull Rush, Drag, Reposition) and leave the Heavyweight abilities as is.
I didn't see the Speedster talent last time I looked. Way cool! Vigilante will always be famous for its superhero support huh?
That's my plan anyways!
Looking through the archetypes, the Sky Marine really stood out to me as something I'd really enjoy playing. Somewhere between Han Solo and Exo Squad is the vibe I got. My one question, not having g access to the skybourne player's guide, how big is the ship? I assume we are talking about something larger than just a personal craft.
I love that I can see iconic heroes in every one of the archetypes in the guide. Just about everyone is there in some way or another.
What was the I aspiration for the secret police archetype? I have to say, the name doesn't exactly conjure the most heroic imagery, but I don't know of anything g other than Fixer as an alternative and that isn't much better.
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Looking through the archetypes, the Sky Marine really stood out to me as something I'd really enjoy playing. Somewhere between Han Solo and Exo Squad is the vibe I got. My one question, not having g access to the skybourne player's guide, how big is the ship? I assume we are talking about something larger than just a personal craft.
Yeah, it's large enough to accommodate a full crew plus a couple passengers and cargo.
I love that I can see iconic heroes in every one of the archetypes in the guide. Just about everyone is there in some way or another.
That was definitely the goal!
What was the I aspiration for the secret police archetype? I have to say, the name doesn't exactly conjure the most heroic imagery, but I don't know of anything g other than Fixer as an alternative and that isn't much better.
Fixer was actually one I considered too. I think that there's definitely a dark side to the vigilante idea- characters like Taskmaster, several of the Weapon X's, the wolves in "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe", Alpha Flight, Suicide Squad, etc. who work for a government or agency and aren't so much heroes, but are still vigilantes, interesting characters, and even team players. That's kind of where the secret police fit in.
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That was definitely the goal!I love that I can see iconic heroes in every one of the archetypes in the guide. Just about everyone is there in some way or another.
And it looks like we have Green Arrow now! Pretty neat with all the trick shots this new Uncanny Archer archetype is capable of. Don't forget to include the name of which book that ranger archetype it draws its tricks from is in.
By the way, what inspiration did you draw from when designing the Marine? I kinda get Fury Road vibes from it, but I want to be sure.
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And it looks like we have Green Arrow now! Pretty neat with all the trick shots this new Uncanny Archer archetype is capable of. Don't forget to include the name of which book that ranger archetype it draws its tricks from is in.That was definitely the goal!I love that I can see iconic heroes in every one of the archetypes in the guide. Just about everyone is there in some way or another.
Uncanny Archer is also compatible with Overwatch, so you can have your flying pet call out your Bounce Shots against foes for you :)
By the way, what inspiration did you draw from when designing the Marine? I kinda get Fury Road vibes from it, but I want to be sure.
So, Fury Road really was one of the sources I considered while putting the Sky Marine together, as was Moon Knight from Marvel Comics. I really wanted it to be a class that felt like it had a really brutal edge to it, but which could also serve as the locus of a group given the fact that it has access to an airship.
Wow, I did not notice that combo! Marksman with bird is pretty iconic. I like this.
I saw Moon Knight once in a crossover with Spider-Man. He was a pretty cool guy. Definitely more brutal than Spidey. Since the Marine is an archetype, the Vigilante can still take one of the new specializations and really mix-up superheroes! Pretty fun if I do say so myself.
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Wow, I did not notice that combo! Marksman with bird is pretty iconic. I like this.
I've always kind of wanted a way to play Montolio Debrouchee from the Drizzt Do'Urden novels, and this gives a path to that, as well as just letting you play a badass archer with a flying companion, which is a pretty cool vigilante idea in its own right. Glad you're digging it :)
I saw Moon Knight once in a crossover with Spider-Man. He was a pretty cool guy. Definitely more brutal than Spidey. Since the Marine is an archetype, the Vigilante can still take one of the new specializations and really mix-up superheroes! Pretty fun if I do say so myself.
I think to a certain extent that Pathfinder tends to hit a point where high level characters actually exceed the average comic book super-hero (with exceptions like Superman, Vulcan, Galactus, etc.), so it would make sense that in a world like Pathfinder you'd have some "super heroes" who have the powers of two or more heroes. Plus, getting to mix and match powers and create your own super-powered vigilante is just plain fun!
The more I look at the Secret Police, the more I feel like there is more to explore for the class. I know the luchadore has some awesome wrestling type moves, but would it be possible to give the Secret Police some Monk-like unarmed combat bonuses or abilities? I'm picturing Jason Bourne, Agent 47 or Kato from the Green Hornet.
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The more I look at the Secret Police, the more I feel like there is more to explore for the class. I know the luchadore has some awesome wrestling type moves, but would it be possible to give the Secret Police some Monk-like unarmed combat bonuses or abilities? I'm picturing Jason Bourne, Agent 47 or Kato from the Green Hornet.
I think those are really great ideas, and Adam and I have been talking about ways we'd like to make the Secret Police archetype more accessible, so I will absolutely look into that. I think Kato and Jason Bourne are really great examples of where we could go with that.
Also, The Luchador is now available in its own stand-alone playtest doc, with a ton of new materials added in (and more on the way!). Let me know what you think!
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Ssalarn,
I used the word mojo because it would get the idea across. It is not Hispanic and should not be used. Best case, mojo is a sauce. Worst, it is short for mojado which is a slur, translated as wetback. Use Corazon instead (heart).
Sorry about that, I totally spaced that in Spanish it is pronounced mo-ho, and is a used word. At least it hasn't hit print.
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Ssalarn,
I used the word mojo because it would get the idea across. It is not Hispanic and should not be used. Best case, mojo is a sauce. Worst, it is short for mojado which is a slur, translated as wetback. Use Corazon instead (heart).Sorry about that, I totally spaced that in Spanish it is pronounced mo-ho, and is a used word. At least it hasn't hit print.
Thanks for that Daw! I've used your suggestion of "Corazon" and updated the document.
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The more I look at the Secret Police, the more I feel like there is more to explore for the class. I know the luchadore has some awesome wrestling type moves, but would it be possible to give the Secret Police some Monk-like unarmed combat bonuses or abilities? I'm picturing Jason Bourne, Agent 47 or Kato from the Green Hornet.I think those are really great ideas, and Adam and I have been talking about ways we'd like to make the Secret Police archetype more accessible, so I will absolutely look into that. I think Kato and Jason Bourne are really great examples of where we could go with that.
Also, The Luchador is now available in its own stand-alone playtest doc, with a ton of new materials added in (and more on the way!). Let me know what you think!
This is pretty sweet! I see that the luchador has undergone some changes since I have last seen it.
Luchador:I am a pretty big fan of breaking down the Stable benefits into talents. I would like to see a few more generic Stable talents, including some acrobatics support, combat maneuver feats, and perhaps a talent to gain bonus CMB against larger creatures. The bigger they are, the harder they fall, right? The new unarmed strike damage is pretty nifty too. I doubt this will cause any problems considering this guy is medium BAB. It wasn't a problem on the monk, brawler or unchained monk, so I doubt it will be here. The loss of bonus feats is a little disappointing, but there is also a lot of good choice available now.
Dancing Dervish: I am iffy on the Dancing Dervish's AC bonus. I can see it getting out of hand, but at the same time it will drain the user's swift action every round. I believe I would need to test it to be sure. Whirlwind Strike does worry me however, since it essentially gives out pounce at something more accurate than full-BAB and without taking the penalty to attacks for iterative. My apologies if I read it wrong, but this sounds quite powerful. Also, how does Momentum Strike and Whirlwind Strike interact with power attack?
Ki Striker: Ridiculously cool. Time for some Great Saiyaman action. Surge fist says that it replaces the Stable talent at 5th level. Probably a type for 7th level talent? Besides that, everything about this archetype is awesome. Just to be sure, the Surge Fist and Annihilating Surge Fist are resolved as melee attacks despite the range, correct?
Lichador: Top tier naming. Lichador? Soul Contender? This is the best. My only complaint is that Soul Contender feels like its only useful for slaying undead. The Ghost Touch part of it should at least work on anything incorporeal instead of just incorporeal undead, if nothing else.
Masked Beast: "truly, he was a beast in the ring."I love it. Early on it feels like they are missing out, since they will be using Totem Beast for one encounter. Later on though, it will provide an excellent amount of versatility, as I have seen hunters exhibit. I am unsure if losing the 7th level stable talent is necessary since the base stable benefits are permanent effects (mostly. Oil is almost permanent), and tend to scale. As I am reading it, if the Masked Beast wishes to deal nonlethal damage with their Beastly Weapons, they must take the -4 penalty to attack rolls for attempting to deal nonlethal damage with a deadly weapon. Do you mind adding some clarifying text? This feels like a glitch. Additionally, since the Masked Beast loses the unarmed strike feature, they have to take improved unarmed strike to gain access to the cool new feats. Any chance of Beastly Weapons counting as improved unarmed strike for prereqs? Call of the Wild is perfect. That ability will be a lot of fun to use!
I look forward to the Rudo and Mysterious Grappler. Their concepts sound solid.
Wrestling Races was quite the section. I especially like the links between the half-orc and orc descriptions. Cuazaj are "perhaps the most unlikely of luchadors" while elves are "Perhaps the least likely of the races to take up the luchador’s arts" and godlins are "perhaps the only race less likely to engage the luchador’s arts than elves." This is a little awkward. Though now I must know, who is less likely to don the mask? Cuazaj or Goblin?
Feats: Love them. Especially Shoulder Roll and Nosebreaker, as those will come up a lot.
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The more I look at the Secret Police, the more I feel like there is more to explore for the class. I know the luchadore has some awesome wrestling type moves, but would it be possible to give the Secret Police some Monk-like unarmed combat bonuses or abilities? I'm picturing Jason Bourne, Agent 47 or Kato from the Green Hornet.I think those are really great ideas, and Adam and I have been talking about ways we'd like to make the Secret Police archetype more accessible, so I will absolutely look into that. I think Kato and Jason Bourne are really great examples of where we could go with that.
Also, The Luchador is now available in its own stand-alone playtest doc, with a ton of new materials added in (and more on the way!). Let me know what you think!
This is pretty sweet! I see that the luchador has undergone some changes since I have last seen it.
Luchador:I am a pretty big fan of breaking down the Stable benefits into talents. I would like to see a few more generic Stable talents, including some acrobatics support, combat maneuver feats, and perhaps a talent to gain bonus CMB against larger creatures. The bigger they are, the harder they fall, right? The new unarmed strike damage is pretty nifty too. I doubt this will cause any problems considering this guy is medium BAB. It wasn't a problem on the monk, brawler or unchained monk, so I doubt it will be here. The loss of bonus feats is a little disappointing, but there is also a lot of good choice available now.
Thanks for the notes on the talents! I'll definitely look into seeing what I can do on that front.
Dancing Dervish:[b] I am iffy on the Dancing Dervish's AC bonus. I can see it getting out of hand, but at the same time it will drain the user's swift action every round. I believe I would need to test it to be sure. Whirlwind Strike does worry me however, since it essentially gives out pounce at something more accurate than full-BAB and without taking the penalty to attacks for iterative. My apologies if I read it wrong, but this sounds quite powerful. Also, how does Momentum Strike and Whirlwind Strike interact with power attack?
Regarding Power Attack and similar feats- penalties would be applied as normal. I'm thinking this archetype might need to be revisited, maybe instead of roll replacements with skill checks, switching to kind of a bardic performance deal.
Ki Striker: Ridiculously cool. Time for some Great Saiyaman action. Surge fist says that it replaces the Stable talent at 5th level. Probably a type for 7th level talent? Besides that, everything about this archetype is awesome.
What's a book about flashy martial arts without your kamehameha/hadoken user, right?
Just to be sure, the Surge Fist and Annihilating Surge Fist are resolved as melee attacks despite the range, correct?
That's the idea, though if that's too confusing or unintuitive, it may need to be changed.
Lichador: Top tier naming. Lichador? Soul Contender? This is the best. My only complaint is that Soul Contender feels like its only useful for slaying undead. The Ghost Touch part of it should at least work on anything incorporeal instead of just incorporeal undead, if nothing else.
I tweaked the ghost touch bit per your suggestion. Glad you like the naming! It started as a typo that screamed out to be turned into something, and I decided if it was going to be a little punny anyways, we should probably go all in.
Masked Beast: "truly, he was a beast in the ring."I love it. Early on it feels like they are missing out, since they will be using Totem Beast for one encounter. Later on though, it will provide an excellent amount of versatility, as I have seen hunters exhibit. I am unsure if losing the 7th level stable talent is necessary since the base stable benefits are permanent effects (mostly. Oil is almost permanent), and tend to scale. As I am reading it, if the Masked Beast wishes to deal nonlethal damage with their Beastly Weapons, they must take the -4 penalty to attack rolls for attempting to deal nonlethal damage with a deadly weapon. Do you mind adding some clarifying text? This feels like a glitch. Additionally, since the Masked Beast loses the unarmed strike feature, they have to take improved unarmed strike to gain access to the cool new feats. Any chance of Beastly Weapons counting as improved unarmed strike for prereqs? Call of the Wild is perfect. That ability will be a lot of fun to use!
I updated Beastly Weapons so it now allows him to meet the prerequisites of feats requiring Improved Unarmed Strike. Glad you like it otherwise! I was kind of thinking of Puma from the Spider-Man comics as I working on it.
I look forward to the Rudo and Mysterious Grappler. Their concepts sound solid.
I'm also adding a mutagen using archetype so you can get your Bane on!
Wrestling Races was quite the section. I especially like the links between the half-orc and orc descriptions. Cuazaj are "perhaps the most unlikely of luchadors" while elves are "Perhaps the least likely of the races to take up the luchador’s arts" and godlins are "perhaps the only race less likely to engage the luchador’s arts than elves." This is a little awkward. Though now I must know, who is less likely to don the mask? Cuazaj or Goblin?
I'll tweak the verbage a bit! I'm thinking that cuazaj are probably the most ill-suited to being luchadors with their brittle silicon bodies and delicate wings, but maybe slightly more likely to be recruited by a stable manager since they'd make great attractions.
Feats: Love them. Especially Shoulder Roll and Nosebreaker, as those will come up a lot.
A big goal for me with the Luchador is that I want you to be grappling every chance you get. I want you to be looking for that opportunity. As most people who've played grapplers know though, grappling is very much a binary choice in core play. You either get enough grapple checks in quickly enough to get a pin, or you don't, and everything up to the point the enemy escapes has been a delaying action only. I tried to make sure there were plenty of feats and luchador talents that make grappling dynamic, and ensure that combat proceeds at the same pace it would if you were playing a more traditional character focused on beating an enemy into submission. The options available also mean that the most dangerous thing for an enemy to do is to grapple a luchador, because that's when he's in his element, and just because he's grappled doesn't mean his ability to inflict punishment has been impeded; in fact, the opposite is true.
Thank you for being so quick to respond to feedback. Giant Slayer is just what the doctor ordered, and I appreciate the changes to Masked Beast and Lichador. If I were to request anything, it would be that Giant Slayer and Dropkick also be granted by some Stable Talents as bonus feats in the same style you wrote Iron Skull to give+enhance Nosebreaker.
You missed the Ki striker's surge fist replacing a 5th level stable talent instead of a 7th level stable talent however.
Blood Breaker is new. I guess you can't have something related to a vigilante without injecting comics into it huh? "Nobody cared who I was until I put on the mask." I love it.
Glad to see the Rudo. This will let me put a pretty mean heel+cronies in a wrestling tournament I plan to put in my campaign.
Is Dropkick new? I don't remember it. I like it though. Kinda like a charging vital strike.
Edit: ITEMS! Those laces are some nice shoes. The converting a nat 1 is kinda meh for me, but the extra speed (and thus big bonus to acrobatics) is really nice!
The belt I am less excited about. Getting 2 big 6 items in one slot is nice, but its also not exciting. I want to see the belt involve triumphing in some way for benefits.
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Thank you for being so quick to respond to feedback. Giant Slayer is just what the doctor ordered, and I appreciate the changes to Masked Beast and Lichador. If I were to request anything, it would be that Giant Slayer and Dropkick also be granted by some Stable Talents as bonus feats in the same style you wrote Iron Skull to give+enhance Nosebreaker.
That's definitely something I can look into!
You missed the Ki striker's surge fist replacing a 5th level stable talent instead of a 7th level stable talent however.
Fixed!
Blood Breaker is new. I guess you can't have something related to a vigilante without injecting comics into it huh? "Nobody cared who I was until I put on the mask." I love it.
Once the idea of a mutagen using luchador was put in my head, I was like "Well, now I have to include that".
Glad to see the Rudo. This will let me put a pretty mean heel+cronies in a wrestling tournament I plan to put in my campaign.
Yeah, it's honestly more WWE heel than true lucha libre rudo, but it does what I wanted it to do, and I think it does it pretty well.
Is Dropkick new? I don't remember it. I like it though. Kinda like a charging vital strike.
Yeah, I'd thought about it, then thought that Pummeling Charge was a thing and left it out, then decided screw it, it's a more accessible option that takes up less resources at the cost of not scaling as high, I'm going to add it.
Edit: ITEMS! Those laces are some nice shoes. The converting a nat 1 is kinda meh for me, but the extra speed (and thus big bonus to acrobatics) is really nice!The belt I am less excited about. Getting 2 big 6 items in one slot is nice, but its also not exciting. I want to see the belt involve triumphing in some way for benefits.
Yeah, I feel better about the laces than I do the belt right now, honestly. I'm thinking maybe the function stays basically the same, but some (or all) of the components are maybe put on a scaling track, like it starts with no deflection bonus to AC, but for every enemy you defeat whose hit dice are equal to or greater than your own, you get a stacking bonus that lasts for 1 hour from the last time you dropped a qualifying opponent? Maybe you stack it faster if you get a pin or unmask an opponent (so, +1 deflection bonus for defeating an opponent, +2 for pinning an opponent, +3 or unmasking a luchador, max +10)? Thoughts?
Yeah, I feel better about the laces than I do the belt right now, honestly. I'm thinking maybe the function stays basically the same, but some...
I am apprehensive about one item granting a +10 bonus to Ac, especially when the ring of protection goes up to +5. I believe focusing on something other than AC, such as temporary hitpoints, CMD, or even CMB would be better.
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Design Manager
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I am apprehensive about one item granting a +10 bonus to Ac, especially when the ring of protection goes up to +5. I believe focusing on something other than AC, such as temporary hitpoints, CMD, or even CMB would be better.
Yeah, I feel better about the laces than I do the belt right now, honestly. I'm thinking maybe the function stays basically the same, but some...
Go ahead and check it out now, see what you think. I tied the Deflection bonus to one conditional modifier and the STR/CON bonus to another, capped the AC bonus at +6 with the modifier active, and nudged the price up a bit.
Also, for anyone who missed it, the Blood Breaker, a mutagen using luchador, and the Rudo, an underhanded wrestler who uses Dirty Tricks and an accomplice to win fights, have been added to the luchador playtest doc. I've also added a few additional magic items unique to the luchador.
The Vigilantes playtest doc will be getting an update shortly. I'll be pulling the feats that overlap with the ones carried over to the Luchador playtest and replacing them with some new options, as well as updating the Mutation vigilante talents to reference "casting ability modifier" instead of "Charisma modifier" for characters who multiclass from a spherecasting class.
Yeah, the new belt is significantly cooler. I am a fan of it encouraging the wrestling playstyle.
The new mundane items are quite cool!I believe a Half Giant Luchador with a Steel Reinforced Table would be fantastic and fun to play.
As for the new magical masks, I feel like the Mask of the Saint could use a nudge. The Azure Demon Mask is expensive but has a very powerful effect and a downside. Its effect will stay useful forever. The Mask of the Saint however is expensive, but declines in use as your group often gains access to powerful healing magic such as Heal. If the mask had a secondary passive effect, such as increased effectiveness of healing on the wearer, or a bonus gained from taking on the pain of others, I think that would help it a lot.
Glad to see a renewable oil source. Carrying around tons of oil would be a pain!
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Yeah, the new belt is significantly cooler. I am a fan of it encouraging the wrestling playstyle.
The new mundane items are quite cool!I believe a Half Giant Luchador with a Steel Reinforced Table would be fantastic and fun to play.
As for the new magical masks, I feel like the Mask of the Saint could use a nudge. The Azure Demon Mask is expensive but has a very powerful effect and a downside. Its effect will stay useful forever. The Mask of the Saint however is expensive, but declines in use as your group often gains access to powerful healing magic such as Heal. If the mask had a secondary passive effect, such as increased effectiveness of healing on the wearer, or a bonus gained from taking on the pain of others, I think that would help it a lot.
Glad to see a renewable oil source. Carrying around tons of oil would be a pain!
I tweaked Mask of the Saint a bit per your suggestion, let me know what you think. Also-
We're getting ready to wrap up the Luchador for layout! For reference the Luchador currently contains:
- The Luchador Hybrid class
- Three Stable choices for the Luchador: Freestyle, Oil Wrestling, and Sumo
- 5 new social talents
- 25 Stable talents
- The Blood Breaker, a mutagen using luchador archetype
- The Dancing Dervish, a dancing Luchador archetype
- The Earthbound, a stoic defender Luchador archetype
- The Ki Striker- For when you want a martial artist who can blast people with ki waves
- The Lichador- For wrestlers from the Other Side
- The Masked Beast- Because sometimes, you just need a wrestler who's also a tiger
- The Masked Saint- For Luchadors who also want to keep the party hale and whole
- The Rudo- because it's not wrestling without a Heel
- A section providing details on how all the Core and Skybourne races might become luchadors, with FCBs for each.
- 11 new masked, wrestling, and martial arts themed feats
- 5 new mundane items every wrestler needs
- 7 new wondrous items, including masks, boots, and more!
We were also looking at adding in a Luchador themed initiating discipline, but the word count required to include all the base initiating rules so this could be a stand-alone supplement ended up meaning we'd have to dedicate nearly a third of the book to just the discipline and an initiating archetype, so at this time it looks like that's off the table, though if the Luchador does well, I'm hoping we get to revisit that particular idea. That will also give Dreamscarred time to wrap up Fool's Errand and their Vigilante archetype(s), so we can make sure that we're complimenting and supporting each other, rather than competing.
This will be the last day of the Luchador playtest, so if there's anything I haven't gone over that you'd like to see, any issues you've found with existing mechanics, or anything else, let me know! If you've left comments directly on the playtest doc, I'll be addressing those over the next couple hours.
Thank you! I am feeling better about the mask now. I noticed the Masked Saint's capstone does not replace the luchador capstone. I do enjoy this archetype though.
I just noticed the Dragon Tattoo feat. I really love the mechanical implications of it! My only suggestion would be to allow the Inscribe Magical Tattoo feat from Inner Sea Magic to be able to enhance the tattoo, that way it supports the "I make magical tattoos" guy.
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Design Manager
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Thank you! I am feeling better about the mask now. I noticed the Masked Saint's capstone does not replace the luchador capstone. I do enjoy this archetype though.
Fixed the capstone issue, thanks for the catch!
I just noticed the Dragon Tattoo feat. I really love the mechanical implications of it! My only suggestion would be to allow the Inscribe Magical Tattoo feat from Inner Sea Magic to be able to enhance the tattoo, that way it supports the "I make magical tattoos" guy.
I'm not 100% on this, but Inner Sea Magic, as a campaign setting book, isn't 100% OGL, so I don't think I can reference materials from it without wandering into some questionable legal territory. I do like the idea though!
Makes sense. A house rule away for my group at least.
Well then, I guess that wraps up the playtest for the most hype class of all time. I'll let you know how future matches go with the Luchador!
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Makes sense. A house rule away for my group at least.
Well then, I guess that wraps up the playtest for the most hype class of all time. I'll let you know how future matches go with the Luchador!
Please do! My groups have been having a blast with it, and I've been secretly contemplating having my Fey Adept in our Way of the Wicked campaign start making poor choices so I can roll up a new Luchador character :P
Vigilantes of Skybourne will now be getting my full attention as we ramp up to finish the materials and playtesting for that release, so I'm very interested in hearing any feedback on that front. Also, I've opened up the Google doc so people can comment directly on it.
Now that the book has been out for a while, we would love to hear some feedback; we have some leftover vigilante ideas, and might do a 'vigilantes of skybourne 2' sometime if it's something people want to see.