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So, a while back in the General Discussion section, we had a talk about the Shifter and how it could translate to 2e.
I originally wanted to just create a mock-up or something and it somehow turned into this. It is questionably balanced, so far unfinished (aspects and feats atleast) and probably way too complicated. But is has been a lot of fun to create, even if it will be (hopefully) superfluous by late next year.
Any constructive criticism is welcome!
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Just to pre-empt some questions:
(1) What's with the damage die sizes on these unarmed attacks?
The problem is that I can't really make them any lower without making this class useless and MC into monk for stances feel mandatory. This class also lacks any inherent damage boost features like sneak attack or panache to compensate for this. I liked the animal barbarian model and removed most traits (or downgraded unarmed attacks with a trait to one die size lower) to compensate for the "rage only" the original has. I would love to add those traits back in, but I haven't found a good way to justify that, yet.
(2) What's your vision for this class?
My version of the shifter is a primarily melee martial class that leans heavily into crowd control, senses, movement types and changing yourself to suit the situation. You have Change Shape to transform into what is basically a constantly evolving monster whenever you feel like it. Adapt is your bread and butter active ability, which allows you to gain an advantage by planning ahead.
Apart from all of that, this is simply a way of "playing the monster". Not in the "I'm evil and everybody's gonna die!" way but in the "I'm a bloody dragon!" way.
If you'd be able to free up some design space by preventing monk stance issues, then the simplest way to fix that would be to give Change Shape the stance tag.
Aberration really ought to have "tentacle" as a suggested attack type.
Having both Crushing Grab and Unarmed Grab is a bit weird. They're both doing the same thing (let you enter a grapple and also hurt the enemy as a single action) but they do it in two different (and mutually exclusive) ways, and they're available at the same level. I agree that Shifter ought to have a grapple build, but I think it needs to be a bit mreo coherent than this.
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That's a remarkably competent work. Some notes: there's a "feaunt" typo in Ancestry Feats 5th feature, "mathcing" and "resuslts" in Maneuver Adaptation feat, "Adabtability" in Unlimited Adaptability feat, Immediate Search's trigger is unfinished, and Supreme Flight's level is 18 instead of 16. Also, you would technically be unable to increase your unarmed attack's damage die with Adapt upon gaining Lethal Form, because you can't stack multiple damage die increases.
Incredible Senses come too early, considering that you only get Vigilant Senses at 9th. It should be closer to Ranger's or Rogue's Perception progression.
Shifter Venom seems remarkably useless, but I guess that's the usual trend with poison-style feats. Powerful Venom somewhat redeems it, but that's two feats spent on a subpar ability.
Overall, this looks really solid. I'll probably use it with my group, once the immediate mistakes are fixed.
If you'd be able to free up some design space by preventing monk stance issues, then the simplest way to fix that would be to give Change Shape the stance tag.
I'm not feeling that solution, sorry. Not only are stances and polymorph effects very different thematically, this would also interfere with all other stances.
Aberration really ought to have "tentacle" as a suggested attack type.
Having both Crushing Grab and Unarmed Grab is a bit weird. They're both doing the same thing (let you enter a grapple and also hurt the enemy as a single action) but they do it in two different (and mutually exclusive) ways, and they're available at the same level. I agree that Shifter ought to have a grapple build, but I think it needs to be a bit mreo coherent than this.
A lot of this is unfinished, especially the aspects - most don't even have all their features yet. And the feat list is as well. A lot of it is "could this work mechanically?", with levels being assigned half-arbitrarily based on existing material. Or basically guessing if there was nothing similar.
That's a remarkably competent work. Some notes: there's a "feaunt" typo in Ancestry Feats 5th feature, "mathcing" and "resuslts" in Maneuver Adaptation feat, "Adabtability" in Unlimited Adaptability feat, Immediate Search's trigger is unfinished, and Supreme Flight's level is 18 instead of 16. Also, you would technically be unable to increase your unarmed attack's damage die with Adapt upon gaining Lethal Form, because you can't stack multiple damage die increases.
Thank you very much ^^. And the unarmed damage die increases of Lethal Form and Adapt not stacking is fully intentional, which is why I repeated that rule in Adapt. The part in Adapt is purely for the purpose of making the early game a little less sad. An earlier version had them stacking and d10 agile finesse weapons or thinking of giving something to already d12s was a bit silly.
Incredible Senses come too early, considering that you only get Vigilant Senses at 9th. It should be closer to Ranger's or Rogue's Perception progression.
The class already gets so much at 7 that I had to choose which one to push to 9 and the choice fell on Vigilant Senses. I might switch that one and Resilience Adaptation, though.
Shifter Venom seems remarkably useless, but I guess that's the usual trend with poison-style feats. Powerful Venom somewhat redeems it, but that's two feats spent on a subpar ability.
Yeah, poison is pretty meh in most cases. This particular part is something I plan on overhauling next. Those were just stuff I thought off at the time. I'm thinking of something that's anti poison-immunity, but that's going to have to be so high level that I'm not sure it's worth it.
Overall, this looks really solid. I'll probably use it with my group, once the immediate mistakes are fixed.
Nice, have fun ^^
And just to be clear, many of these feats are either directly copied from ancestry feats (such as greater sensory adaptation) but added one level lower than the original. I changed some of those, but most are unchanged except the level. Many others are adapted feats from other classes (e.g. Boulder Toss is a slightly changed Oversized Throw). So I can only claim very limited credit for those.
The adapted monster abilities are a mix of original and my own thoughts, but many of those are in the "this is highly questionable" box. Swallow Whole and especially Engulf top that particular list.
But there are actually some original feats in there. I'm very proud of Multilimbed and Multiheaded, for example :D
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First of all, love the bones. I think taking some of the concepts from the Summoner make a lot of sense. There is certainly enough here that you could sculpt a pretty good interpretation of the Class from it.
Still haven't read through the feats, but here are my notes on the structure:
- I find the portion on limbs in Change shape a little confusing, and to be honest, rather unnecessary. I think it's more than reasonable to either say all forms can still wield things as normal by morphing their limbs accordingly. That's my take but there has to be a more elegant way to work that issue IMO.
- Adapt's unarmed attack metrics seems like it should potentially be a Feat or several Feats. The unarmed benefits I feel like the reach increasing existing reach is a bit too strong, especially when comparing it to using your unarmed attack in ancestry form (especially considering adapt and Change Shape have the same action cost). I also think the ability to get Precise Scent/Tremorsense is a little strong, because that's effectively Invisibility nullification at level 1. I like the concept of being able to Adapt and think it absolutely should be part of the Class in some form but I'm not sure it works as a base ability. Perhaps a set of Feats under that umbrella with the "Adaptation" trait so you can't stack more than one adaptation until you take "Merge Adaptation". Just my thoughts. You might consider giving them one small set of initial abilities (ancestry form claws, gain a sense you do not have, gain a climb/swim speed) and then advance it from there. Just not working for me personally as a starting point.
- Aspect Defense I think should straight up be determined by the form selected IMO and I think that would give a firmer definition to how those forms function as well. You might make it a choice in some cases, but for instance Fey I think should be 100% Light and I think you could argue Dragon is 100% Heavy.
- Aspect Weakness/Resistance I kinda like but "silver or cold iron" I'm hoping is a placeholder (potentially for good reason, because this will require careful balancing). You might consider pairing the choices directly (Fire and Cold, Good and Evil, Silver and Cold Iron, Electricity and Acid, etc.) That at least guarantees you have more control over what types of resistances are selectable, even if only certain forms get access to certain ones. I do like the choice aspect though.
Solid start to this though and I really think the "vibe" is there, that much is certain. The mechanics could use another pass I think, but definitely something there.
Well done Karmagator!
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First of all, love the bones. I think taking some of the concepts from the Summoner make a lot of sense. There is certainly enough here that you could sculpt a pretty good interpretation of the Class from it.
Thank you very much ^^.
I find the portion on limbs in Change shape a little confusing, and to be honest, rather unnecessary. I think it's more than reasonable to either say all forms can still wield things as normal by morphing their limbs accordingly. That's my take but there has to be a more elegant way to work that issue IMO.
Absolutely true, I just haven't found a substantially better way to phrase it.
The goal is that you don't get automatically punished for choosing something that you think is cool. You can still do everything a regular person is able to do. The level of restrictions you place on yourself in this regard are supposed to be more of an RP thing. If you want to play a big blob of acid that can't talk, so they have to play charades whenever they want to communicate - great.
Adapt's unarmed attack metrics seems like it should potentially be a Feat or several Feats. The unarmed benefits I feel like the reach increasing existing reach is a bit too strong, especially when comparing it to using your unarmed attack in ancestry form (especially considering adapt and Change Shape have the same action cost). I also think the ability to get Precise Scent/Tremorsense is a little strong, because that's effectively Invisibility nullification at level 1. I like the concept of being able to Adapt and think it absolutely should be part of the Class in some form but I'm not sure it works as a base ability. Perhaps a set of Feats under that umbrella with the "Adaptation" trait so you can't stack more than one adaptation until you take "Merge Adaptation". Just my thoughts. You might consider giving them one small set of initial abilities (ancestry form claws, gain a sense you do not have, gain a climb/swim speed) and then advance it from there. Just not working for me personally as a starting point.
I see where you are coming from. I think that Adapt (or an ability with a similar concept) is an essential part for this class. While I wouldn't hate it without it, I think other people have correctly pointed out that then I'd just be a wildshape druid on crack. Still pretty cool, but lacks a bit of that shapeshifter feeling to the combat.
There is another option, as you have pointed out, which would be splitting most of up into feats and retain some small part just to have some baseline active interaction ability, especially at early levels. Reach could become a lunge-esk attack feat. The whole "imprecise to precise sense" thing could become a "you seek and for this action your senses get better" kind of deal. The damage die size increase and +1 bonus to attacks could probably stay in some form, as well as the "can use in ancestry form" part. That last one is only really important if for some reason you can't/won't go into your aspect form (fiend shifter in a church or something). The ancestry form is supposed to be a bit like barb without rage, but not completely buggered.
Definitely a point for the next draft,though. Thanks.
Aspect Defense I think should straight up be determined by the form selected IMO and I think that would give a firmer definition to how those forms function as well. You might make it a choice in some cases, but for instance Fey I think should be 100% Light and I think you could argue Dragon is 100% Heavy.
I considered that, but I found that the aspects are just too broad. There are quite a few fey for example that have a above moderate or even above high AC for their level, apparently because of that armour (e.g. Marmorra,Vilderavn or Huldra). Similarly, there are draconic beings (usually drakes) with only a moderate AC for their level. Not to mention future-proofing the entire thing and allowing people to play against type a bit. You are not strictly bound to imitating existing creatures after all. In the end, I found it just wasn't worth it, especially since I expect people to pick according to type most of the time. Light for anything that is nimble and relies on DEX and medium/heavy depending on how much your creature depends on armour.
Aspect Weakness/Resistance I kinda like but "silver or cold iron" I'm hoping is a placeholder (potentially for good reason, because this will require careful balancing). You might consider pairing the choices directly (Fire and Cold, Good and Evil, Silver and Cold Iron, Electricity and Acid, etc.) That at least guarantees you have more control over what types of resistances are selectable, even if only certain forms get access to certain ones. I do like the choice aspect though.
Every aspect that doesn't have additional features yet is like 90% "what could I immediately think of"-style placeholder.
And, yes, the weakness is one of the biggest question marks right now, both the damage types and the weakness amount. The original idea is that I want something that is uncommon enough so that the player isn't mowed down every second combat. At the same time I want it to be scary when it occasionally comes up - especially if your enemies came prepared for you in the same way that the PC party would. To that end, I wanted to give everyone a couple of options. Silver and cold iron make sense, as those are the stereotypical anti-monster/shifter metals and appear somewhat frequently in APs. Especially for the dragon aspect, since most draconic creatures are only really "weak" to copious amounts of violence, not anything specific. The verdant shifter is a particular nightmare - fire and slashing weakness and that's kinda it for plants and fungi. And those are really not good options if you want your player to, you know, live. So everything is kinda open on that front.
The resistance part is a lot easier and I'm pretty happy with the direction. I plan on giving you the choices that are at least somewhat frequent in the respective creature type and are ideally energy damage. Absolutely frequent (or even universal) ones like mental for Oozes are technically stronger, but I can't just not include them.
The level 9 feature is about both survivability and adding a bit of theme by making it counterable through your weakness. I see this as more of a shifter thing than a general monster thing, though it certainly helps with the RP of some monsters.
I don't know about pairing things, I haven't given that part much thought yet.
Solid start to this though and I really think the "vibe" is there, that much is certain. The mechanics could use another pass I think, but definitely something there.
Well done Karmagator!
Thanks again, especially for the feedback!
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I'll be curious to see your next pass. Seems like you are aware of most of the things I pointed out :)
Cant wait to see your next pass!
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And the unarmed damage die increases of Lethal Form and Adapt not stacking is fully intentional, which is why I repeated that rule in Adapt. The part in Adapt is purely for the purpose of making the early game a little less sad. An earlier version had them stacking and d10 agile finesse weapons or thinking of giving something to already d12s was a bit silly…
Can't say I'm a fan of that choice, then. Adapt looks like it's supposed to be Shifter's main combat feature, akin to Fighter's weapon proficiency or Rogue's Sneak Attack; having it suddenly drop in power after 7th level feels janky and unrewarding. +2 to one attack is usually slightly worse than just making two attacks, and after gaining Lethal Strikes, downgrading it to such a degree (+1 to your attacks for the rest of the turn as an action is barely worth it, or not worth it at all) makes the "+1 to hit" option startlingly bad. It still retains its more utility-based uses, but becomes nigh-unusable as a direct damage boost it was before, and, as I see it, Shifter needs some boost to attacks - Animal Barbarian is pretty similar, yet still gains +2/+5/+12 damage to all attacks as it levels, without the need to constantly spend an action to Rage. +1 to hit and +1-4 to damage felt like it was the right choice, considering Shifter's other benefits. These benefits are not enough on their own, though.
Upgrading the d12s can be fixed by changing Adapt's damage die increase to the flat increase similar to the one of Barbarian's.
And the unarmed damage die increases of Lethal Form and Adapt not stacking is fully intentional, which is why I repeated that rule in Adapt. The part in Adapt is purely for the purpose of making the early game a little less sad. An earlier version had them stacking and d10 agile finesse weapons or thinking of giving something to already d12s was a bit silly…Can't say I'm a fan of that choice, then. Adapt looks like it's supposed to be Shifter's main combat feature, akin to Fighter's weapon proficiency or Rogue's Sneak Attack; having it suddenly drop in power after 7th level feels janky and unrewarding. +2 to one attack is usually slightly worse than just making two attacks, and after gaining Lethal Strikes, downgrading it to such a degree (+1 to your attacks for the rest of the turn as an action is barely worth it, or not worth it at all) makes the "+1 to hit" option startlingly bad. It still retains its more utility-based uses, but becomes nigh-unusable as a direct damage boost it was before, and, as I see it, Shifter needs some boost to attacks - Animal Barbarian is pretty similar, yet still gains +2/+5/+12 damage to all attacks as it levels, without the need to constantly spend an action to Rage. +1 to hit and +1-4 to damage felt like it was the right choice, considering Shifter's other benefits. These benefits are not enough on their own, though.
Upgrading the d12s can be fixed by changing Adapt's damage die increase to the flat increase similar to the one of Barbarian's.
This first draft was somewhat conservative in the class feature department (potentially precise scent sense at level 1 notwithstanding). And I totally agree that Adapt could use better scaling, if it is retained in this form. Going above d12 isn't too bad of a problem, the theory at least. If it was already a d12, just make the bonus 1 damage per damage dice, easy. That's how Paizo seems to sometimes get around the "die size increases don't stack" rule if they want certain things to stack or make things feel more appropriate in certain contexts.
The thing is that we don't really have stuff that casually gives d10 agile finesse or d12+. I mean even monsters don't really have the former at this level, much less players. That is young red dragon (level 10) stuff and goes against what I feel is Paizo's general design philosophy. Hence I'm a bit hesitant, despite the math mostly checking out. Its also kind of boring. Bigger and bigger numbers is fun, but only so much. I'd rather have something more interesting, I just haven't had much luck thinking of anything that is good enough.
So, I see your point, but I just don't think it is the direction I want this class to go in, sorry.
I'll be curious to see your next pass. Seems like you are aware of most of the things I pointed out :)
Cant wait to see your next pass!
I'm curious about what its going to be like as well ^^.
The last two-ish days were kinda absorbed by some other stuff and watching Misfits and Magic, plus my vacation is now over and works starts again on Monday. So the second draft could take a while, just a warning ^^
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Quick little update, though:
* vigilant senses (master in perception) and resilience adaptation (master in first save) swapped - vigilant senses is now 7th level
* new version of Adapt:
Adapt [one action]
[traits same]All your unarmed attacks deal additional precision damage equal to their number of damage dice and gain a +1 status bonus to attack rolls.
Additionally, choose one of the following effects:
* In your ancestry shape, you can use one unarmed attack granted by your aspect
* You ignore difficult terrain while using one movement type (such as regular Speed or fly Speed)
* (other minor-ish effects tbd)All effects (including the increased damage) last until the start of your next turn. Unlike other morph effects, multiple effects of Adapt on the same body part do not attempt to counteract each other.
This should feel more like it is worth your action and we don't have to deal with d10 agile finesse unarmed attacks!
You can still add reach to the attack, but only the first one you make in a turn. This would work a bit like Fighter's Lunge, and also make it a situational option you use when you really need it, instead of a round-long buff.
You can still add reach to the attack, but only the first one you make in a turn. This would work a bit like Fighter's Lunge, and also make it a situational option you use when you really need it, instead of a round-long buff.
I've made unarmed lunge (literally the 2nd level fighter feat just only for unarmed attacks) from that, which seems like a decent solution. But one reach Strike seems like a decent option to add.
There's also a room for something like Analyze Weakness with the new Adapt. Fine-tune your Adapt against an opponent you successfully used Recall Knowledge against, increasing the precision damage.
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After thinking about it a bit more, I've increased the duration of Adapt to 1 minute or until you use it again. In turn, I've dropped the +1 bonus to attack rolls. I think this is a better solution, because otherwise the action economy would be almost non-existent. It just doesn't feel good to have all these nasty two-action activities I have planned and then have to decide between movement and Adapt. That's a recipe for disaster.
I've also moved the precision damage to its own feature for now, which is active whenever you have an active morph effect on you. This should open up more options for both shifter feats and archetypes. I' see if that works out.
In other news, the verdant aspect is done, courtesy of a friend of mine. I don't have much interest in that part and have therefore only done some light rebalancing and rephrasing. The aberrant aspect and fey aspect continue to frustrate me. The only idea I have for the former is something with black tentacles for level 15. The latter is just magic, with the first feature granting three occult cantrips. After that I'm fresh out of good ideas or good stuff to rip off ;).
When Secrets of Magic comes out, the Summoner will continue to be a great source of "inspiration". Aka, I will continue to rip off pretty much all evolution feats top some extent, as I expect any official shifter class will. They are just too good a baseline for what is acceptable and offer some freedom to maneuver, as eidolons are not 100% a martial. And once we get the battle zoo bestiary and accompanying books (3rd party), I have even more stuff.
I still hope that the shifter playtest will be announced in September. Paizo stuff is just better than my cobbled together things ^^
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I present - Version 0.2!
Still heavily WIP, though the class features are looking pretty solid by now. This part hasn't changed a whole lot except phrasing in the last week.
With the rabbit hole I have gone down in regards to aspect feats, I have also decided to put everything except the myriad shifter in its own document or in appropriate pairings. Scrolling through two pages of things you don't get to find a feat you can take isn't productive or fun.
For now, I only have the main document with mostly universal feats and the dragon aspect document, because damn does this take a lot of time.
Hope you enjoy!
Edit: I've already found three errors in the dragon aspect document alone. Improvement! :D