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Over in the Rules Forum I recently asked about Retraining Weapon Familiarity (and similar feats that grant Access to items). I.E., what happens when, say, an Elf Fighter picks Elven Weapon Familiarity at Level 1, purchases an Elven Curve Blade, and then Retrains EWF at a later level.
TL;DR - It does not seem that you lose the items you obtained while you had Access.
But there are 3 Society-specific restrictions that make me think that wouldn't work here:
Numbers 1 & 2 speak to the intentionality that Retraining an option in Society forces you to lose the items you gained. If you should lose Access to your Boarding Pike or Hellknight Plate via Retraining, it makes sense you should also lose Access to your Ancestry's favored weapons.
But it's that 3rd point especially that makes me hesitate to Retrain my character's feats. It's not a Core Rule, and seems rather broad. It would be hard to argue that an Elf PC with a Curve Blade who didn't otherwise have Access "could be built without Retraining".
Is all of this a correct interpretation?
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It does not even take a later level. You could do it after your very first scenario.
Using elven curve blade as an example: you make an elf with elven weapon familiarity, buy an elven curve blade, play a full length scenario, spend your 7 days retraining (a 0.4 gp opportunity cost) into the feat you really wanted and keep your elven curve blade.
Given the ease of the loophole to walk through, I would be in favor of the broad restriction (sell back what you accessed) being the intended result.
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I will operate off that understanding going forward, then, and inform others as I come across them.
Although I just thought about this: how does this impact formulas?
Barring the disagreement on how much (if anything) it costs to copy formulas from one PC to another, what happens when that Elf Fighter with Elven Weapon Familiarity purchases a formula for an Elven Curve Blade (or deconstructs it themself), allows another PC to copy that formula, and then Retrains the feat away?
Could they just recopy the formula from their friend and Craft it?
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Where is that rule at?
If that's true, then people who have the "formula for adamantine shield" from a certain Chronicle are going to be upset, because an Adamantine Shield is Uncommon.
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There's no explicit statement regarding the rarity of formulas but....
Your previous question notes that access to an item lets you treat it as common for all purposes (including formulas).
Treasure and Rarity talks about uncommon and rare formulas.
If formulas of uncommon items were not uncommon, there would be nothing stopping you from buying the formula for those and all sorts of rare items and making your own, totally bypassing the rarity system.
The only reasonable conclusion is that the formula is also uncommon, and therefore you can't copy it into your formula book without access.
Note that Learning new spells is explicitly answered in the blog.
Also in the Guide:
"Characters can Craft uncommon or rare items only if they have access to the applicable formulas."
So you explicitly need access to the formula to craft rare/uncommon items.
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Yeah, so, we know PCs can copy Uncommon formulas into their formula books (I hope the existence of that Chronicle is evidence enough of that). So if PC#1 has an Uncommon formula, what's stopping PC#2 from copying it into their book?
In retrospect, I think this question was on my mind when I posed the question you linked to, but the answer that Jared gave wasn't what I was expecting, so I didn't proceed down that train of thought.
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I'm sorry you have trouble explaining that. I might suggest a full read through the access and rarity rules in both the Guide and the CRB as you seem to be having some trouble.
Well I'd appreciate the help. I've read through these many times. That's why I'm asking for where you're getting your information.
For example, the whole purpose of Learn a Spell is to gain Access in the first place. "You can gain access to a new spell of your tradition from someone who knows that spell or from magical writing like a spellbook or scroll."
My conclusion from that is PC#1 has a spell, regardless of Rarity, and PC#2 uses Learn a Spell to gain Access to it.
Same for formulas: "You can copy a formula into your formula book in 1 hour, either from a schematic or directly from someone else’s formula book."
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The strictness of Access is a function of Organized Play.
In a home campaign, once one PC has access to a formula or spell, they could teach it to a fellow PC. However, where access to Uncommon or rarer options is limited by boons, it is counterintuitive, to me, that you just need one player with a character with a boon granting Access to then freely give it away to other players.
E.g. I play Extinction Curse and have a wizard with Rime Slick. If I could simply allow fellow players to have their arcane casters to learn the spell from my character after adventuring with him, and they could teach it to others, then a boon-gated Uncommon spell would spread through Organized Play. You'd see sessions being specifically organized to teach-forward the Uncommon spells.
Since that's not an intended practice, I think, that's why each individual must have access.
In a home game, you're looking at a closed population all under the home GM(s) control and balance.
EDIT: Or substitute an AcP purchased boon granting spell access such as Protection, allowing people to spend their AcP on other things than Access and ultimately negating the need for the boon.
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The strictness of Access is a function of Organized Play.
Access is an inherent function of PF2. PFS adds "Availability" to the formula with "Standard", "Limited" and "Restricted" categories.
According to Availability and Rarity table on the Character Options page, Limited and Rare options always require a Boon.
But Standard, Uncommon options don't.
The Guide has a couple restrictions on formulas. My Dwarven Daisy example above was in error. But there is no general restriction on copying Uncommon formulas. If intended that there should be, it needs to be added to the Guide, because as it stands now, if a player asked me "Why not?", there's nothing I can point them to.
And if the intention is that you cannot use Learn a Spell to gain Access to Uncommon spells from a scroll or spellbook, that needs to be added, too. Because that's the entire point of Learn a Spell. You don't use it for Common spells, since you already have Access to them, unless they're Common spells outside of the CRB.
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Yes. I am well aware that Rarity is an inherent function of PF2.
The means by which a character can access an Uncommon or rarer option in PF2 is to either be directly granted access to the feature (e.g. focus spells) or meet specific Access Requirements.
PFS Note Characters from the Broken Lands have access to the Aldori dueling sword.rice 2 gp; Damage 1d8 S; Bulk 1
Hands 1
Category Advanced
Group Sword; Traits Finesse, Uncommon, Versatile P
Without the GM (Organized Play) assigning Access Requirements, nobody could take Aldori Dueling Swords.
UncommonArchetypeDedication
Source World Guide pg. 35 2.0
Archetype Aldori Duelist
Prerequisites trained in Aldori dueling swords
Access You are from the Broken Lands region.
Uncommon items are available only to those who have special training, grew up in a certain culture, or come from a particular part of the world.
Here is the additional strictness that Organized Play has placed on it through the Availability rule that I was referencing.
Standard: These options follow the standard rules as printed in their respective sourcebooks. If a character wants to take this option, they must meet all its prerequisites as usual. If the option is uncommon or rarer, they must also have access to the option.
To have that option on your PFS character, you must either 1) meet all the prerequisites as usual and 2) have access.
E.g., any Fighter with a Home Region in the Broken Lands can take Aldori Duelist Archetype as an option.
E.g., Nobody at launch of PFS2 could access Protection as a spell.
Your character has access to this option if they have selected an available option that grants them access to it (for example, many classes grant them access to focus spells, which are uncommon). Alternatively, your character can gain access through a boon.
The GM (Organized Play) created a means of accessing certain Uncommon options through boons--both on Chronicles and through AcP boons.
E.g., My PFS character can gain access to Protection through the Esoteric Spellcaster boon.
I do not have access to Protection via any other means without a boon as I have not selected an option that grants me access. You having a character with Protection via the Esoteric Spellcaster boon and me using the Learn a Spell activity to put it in my spellbook is not me selecting an option that grants me access (like me creating a cleric of Zon-Kuthon to gain access to spiked chains).
A character from the Broken Lands can't buy an Aldori dueling sword and hand it to a Fighter from the Mwangi Expanse to disassemble and reverse engineer a formula and then craft one themselves.
A character with a Chronicle granting access to a Cinderclaw Guantlet can't do that either for another character either.
A GM running a scenario with an allied spellcaster who has an Uncommon spell can't decide, "Huh. He likes you. I guess he'll let you look at his spellbook."
That's how I see spells, formulas, and all other Uncommon options. I understand that you read the Learn a Spell activity and interpret "You can gain access to a new spell" as the learning character having Access. I, however, understand there to be a bubble between characters that allows them to be portable between tables where I need to meet the access requirements or have a boon allowing me the options to even Learn a Spell in the first place.
They certainly could, and I think should, close the loophole and explicitly state that Learn a Spell does not grant you access to Uncommon or rarer spells that you would not be able to access under your character's own power (because it is a clear end-run around the AcP-gated spells).
Or I could be completely off base and sharing Uncommon spells is exactly what Organized Play had intended: early access through AcP, then dissemination throughout the campaign via PCs.
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I understand that you read the Learn a Spell activity and interpret "You can gain access to a new spell" as the learning character having Access.
Thank you. Exactly. I was beginning to go crazy there trying to make sure my point was getting through.
Access only has one definition, and so when people are saying it means something else, I'm fine with that, but I need to know where that extra definition is coming from.
I'm not against Organized Play placing an extra restriction on Learn a Spell, or copying formulas, but if that's their intention, it needs to be clearly stated somewhere.
I get that a lot of us old hands have what we think to be an intuitive understanding of how PFS works, but that causes two main problems: 1) sometimes PFS1 logic doesn't apply to PFS2 rules, and 2) new players can only go by the rules as they interpret them.
Or I could be completely off base and sharing Uncommon spells is exactly what Organized Play had intended
It's certainly what PF2 intends; and so the lack of any additional PFS restrictions really leans me to believing it's no different here.
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A GM running a scenario with an allied spellcaster who has an Uncommon spell can't decide, "Huh. He likes you. I guess he'll let you look at his spellbook."Wait. Why not? If the PC succeeds at Make a Request. Copying spells doesn't require Downtime.
Because the GM determining a character's access isn't the Table GM, it's Organized Play.
Also, that situation would bog a scenario down--all scenarios down--in Diplomacy checks to see an ally's spellbook in case there's something cool to scribe.
To me, the existence of AcP or other boon gated access sets the tone for how things work.
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Or I could be completely off base and sharing Uncommon spells is exactly what Organized Play had intended: early access through AcP, then dissemination throughout the campaign via PCs.It's certainly what PF2 intends; and so the lack of any additional PFS restrictions really leans me to believing it's no different here.
Well, if it's not, they'd best hurry up and plug that hole before they have to untangle people arranging speed runs of repeatable quests to learn it from someone who already has the spell they want.
Gots to get my druid some quest time with someone with an primal sorcerer and some APG spells... :P
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I agree with Nefreet that this isn't really clear from the Guide. I cannot pull up any section definitively saying that you can or cannot do this. I think it may have fallen through the cracks somewhere in all the moves between different places to host the guide and how to chop it up into chapters. It's easy to think "I know how it's supposed to work and I'm sure it's in the Guide somewhere", but I can't find it.
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So to adress your points with what I think is the intended way of functioning:
Items bought with access through a feat and then retraining away the feat
The intent is likely that you can't keep the item. Looking at boons to give you access to things, they all have a clause that if you lose the access, you have to lose the thing.
This isn't strictly realistic - if you move from Brevoy, why would you forget how to do swordsmanship like that? If you train out of elven weapon familiarity, who's coming by to impound your curve blade? It's a balance consideration: you pay the price to be "special" and you can't get a refund on that without also returning the product.
Transcribing non-common formulas and spells
We know from the Guide that you can gain the formula for any item you have access to, except for limited access items.
Looking through the Guide I can't find anything that definitively forbids you from copying uncommon spells or fomulas from other players. The Purchasing Guidelines are the closest thing to it, but don't actually say it. They say "you can do it X way", that's not the same as saying "and you can't do it Y way as described in the CRB".
Specifically:
- For spells it says prepared casters can learn common spells they have access to from tutors at the Grand Lodge. This is relevant to wizards for filling spellbooks, and for any prepared caster who wants to add non-CRB spells to their preparation options. Notice the "common spells you have access to" which is already a bit redundant. Although it jives with the earlier rule that " If you satisfy the access condition specified in that option, then that option is common for you." which as far as I can tell is a PFS-only thing; in the CRB an uncommon thing that you have is still uncommon, you just have access. Nothing here actually says anything about learning spells from other PCs. Since learning spells from other PCs is possible by CRB rules and the Guide doesn't say anything, it should still be possible because CRB rules hold unless we're told otherwise.
- For formulas, the Society will sell you formulas for anything to which you have access, except if you only have limited access. Again, this doesn't say anything about copying formulas from other PCs.
Now, that's what's in the Guide. I think the intent is that you can't copy stuff you don't have access to, for these reasons:
- In the case of uncommon stuff you got access to from achieving stuff in a scenario, it's supposed to be a reward for playing that scenario. If you could just copy that, it would be unearned and take some of the shine off the reward for people who earned it the intended way.
- For access bought with AcP, copying formulas to other characters is basically wealth transfer between characters. It just happens to be intellectual property instead of gold.
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Now you might say, yeah, but I could do all that stuff in a home campaign too. Which is true, but a home campaign has a much smaller core of players, probably all in the same party. That makes the picture very different than when you're playing with people all over the world online and can get a great marketplace for formulae going by arranging to sit at the table with the right people for a scenario.