Transformation spell plz?

[pauljathome]

Temperans wrote:

Multiple enemies just wreck the Caster faster as they get hit more and don't have the HP to stay up.

Depends on the caster.

I'm playing a druid. Multiple enemies? That is what my AoE spells are designed for. That battle, I just toss fireballs or the like.

Single major boss? Like everybody, I'm struggling. Maybe utility spells, maybe spells hoping to get some benefit on a save, maybe battle form to at least give the bad guy more targets and be one more character looking for very high rolls.

Two or three enemies? Maybe shift, maybe spells. Both viable, depends on how much I'm conserving resources, details of the combat, etc.

One thing to keep in mind for a druid is that shifting lets me be a reasonable combatant for the cost of just a focus point. Sometimes that is irrelevant (15 minute adventuring day) and sometimes it is incredibly valuable (multiple encounter dungeon where retreating has a significant cost).

The end result is a very versatile character who can ALWAYS find a way to contribute. The cost of that versatility is that I don't shine as much as a more focused character shines WHEN THEIR Focus works.

[NemoNoName]

Ascalaphus wrote:

They don't get to out-wizard you do they?

They don't? Skill Feats are way better than any built-in Wizard abilities and there's so many items that provide the exact same spells Wizard can cast.

In fact, a 1 min spell that gave you same attack modifier would allow you to mimic a Martial for 1/1440 of a day (since martials can just keep going). And the real strength of Martials is not merely in their main number, but in the abilities their feats give them.

Since spellcasters generally have 3 or 4 spell slots per spell level a day, that means that casting a spell allows you to mimic about 2/3*character level of their ability (2 because it's 3 spell slots for every 2 character levels, roughly speaking).
Or at 6th level, casting a spell gives you about 10-15% of spell ability a spellcaster will have.

P.S. And before the nay-sayers jump up, I don't actually want a Transformation spell. I'm just demolishing this particular argument against it.

[pauljathome]

NemoNoName wrote:

Ascalaphus wrote:

They don't get to out-wizard you do they?

They don't? Skill Feats are way better than any built-in Wizard abilities

Skills are very useful in this game. And that is a good thing.

But they don't replace water breathing, air walk, endure elements, quench, etc etc etc etc.

Magic is still VERY useful even though it no longer totally dominates the game. Skill feats not withstanding.

[Sbor]

pauljathome wrote:

NemoNoName wrote:

Ascalaphus wrote:

They don't get to out-wizard you do they?

They don't? Skill Feats are way better than any built-in Wizard abilities

Skills are very useful in this game. And that is a good thing.

But they don't replace water breathing, air walk, endure elements, quench, etc etc etc etc.

Magic is still VERY useful even though it no longer totally dominates the game. Skill feats not withstanding.

These are situational things at best

[Cyder]

pauljathome wrote:

NemoNoName wrote:

Ascalaphus wrote:

They don't get to out-wizard you do they?

They don't? Skill Feats are way better than any built-in Wizard abilities

Skills are very useful in this game. And that is a good thing.

But they don't replace water breathing, air walk, endure elements, quench, etc etc etc etc.

Magic is still VERY useful even though it no longer totally dominates the game. Skill feats not withstanding.

Those buffs are easily to get as consumeables or even wand/staff trick magic item. With a bit of investment an MC into a caster can get you those. Also those are great for exploration but rarely does a game revolve around access to those abilities else the campaign just stops.

[thenobledrake]

HyperMissingno wrote:

I mean, have you seen Paizo APs? My table's been running through Agents of Edgewatch and big boss fights have been a pretty regular occurrence. Hell it's not unusual for us to have two big boss fights in a single day.

I have seen them. I'm also playing them. I play a wizard in Edgewatch, and I get in melee range whenever I want to (which is often because it's often easier to aim my particular area spells by getting all up in someone's face). The only time the character has spent on the floor was when a devil crit me twice in the same turn.

And the other characters in the party, especially the fighter (the nearest thing we have to the barbarian in the prior statement) have remained outside of "dies in a couple of hits" territory.

The other campaign I'm part of (Extinction Curse) also hasn't seen many cases of anyone hitting the floor, and the times that it has happened have all been "I did a silly thing" in nature like half of the party not paying attention to that their piercing weapons weren't actually harming the black pudding, just making it split and be harder to deal with - which is a decidedly different case from the apparent "even if you're the toughest character possible, you get 2 shot regularly" claim.

But the variance even while using the same adventure content is why I said "I haven't found that to be particularly common" instead of "That doesn't happen."

[Abyssalwyrm]

Claxon wrote:

Staffan Johansson wrote:

Regarding (formerly known as Tenser's) Transformation in particular, I think Righteous Might is a more appropriate model than most of the arcane/primal polymorph spells. Just polish off some of that god-stink, and inter-/extrapolate 7th, 9th, and 10th level versions of it.

I disagree, just fix all the transformation spells to grant a to hit bonus*, that scales all the way up to level 10 spells, and keeps them close but definitely behind a non-fighter martial of the same level.

*And probably some other statistics too

Thing is with Rightouse Might, it's still flagged as full polymorph effect, not just morph. And more importantly a battleform. So even though spell technically lets you use your own weapon, since it's a battleform - you cannot benefit from item bonus from your weapons. So Similarly to "form" spells, if you try to use lower level ones, on high level, you still underpowered even compared to non-polymorphed yourself.

[Amaya/Polaris]

NemoNoName wrote:

I'm just demolishing this particular argument against it.

It's kinda laughable to say this sort of thing in general. No, I think the argument holds up fine. A caster MC and items to replicate situational spells isn't a trivial cost, and spells that occasionally let you replicate or approach martial prowess/attack bonuses do exist and...are called battleforms, the subject of this thread. The benefits of strong debuffs beyond the typical that are much more likely to actually land than an MC one, more and higher-level buffs that can warp math or give the whole party a boost, big AoEs that (again) are more likely to land for heavy damage, and more convenient/effective access to those niche utilities and items, with the option to tweak or expand spell loadout over time, in addition to skill stuff martials also have access to — it all suggests a full caster that's trying just isn't going to be out-wizarded, even after their raw power was restricted in almost all directions with the edition jump.

On a side note, I like martials with caster MCs, it's a cool aesthetic, but I also think the warping nature of high-level armchair discussions make it easy to forget how slow and limited the casting you get actually is. I'd like to hope that my character's main thing can be done by, like, Lv 4-6, 8 or 10 at most. But it would be better served with a hefty focus spell or two, because having exactly 1 slot (and 1 or 2 spells to cast in it) at Lv 4 ain't it. Ditto 2 slots at Lv 6. 3 slots at Lv 8 is, like, okay, especially with items, but at this point caster friends have 12-16 up to 4th Lv casting and more budget for those items, and between efficacy and quantity and proficiency mine are pretty much forced to be buffs or niche abilities, and there isn't even anything more (other than the extra 1st Lv slot from Breadth, if that's desired) until Lv 12! That's traditionally around or past where a campaign will end or die! Breadth+Expert casting and beyond does finally start giving a really solid amount of slots, but it's also quite feat intensive, biting into one of the primary components of martial power just as battleforms bite into the primary component of spellcaster power.

I honestly think the two categories are pretty much on par when it comes to stealing from one another.

[Cyouni]

NemoNoName wrote:

In fact, a 1 min spell that gave you same attack modifier would allow you to mimic a Martial for 1/1440 of a day (since martials can just keep going). And the real strength of Martials is not merely in their main number, but in the abilities their feats give them.

By the same token, if you're doing a hexploration campaign, that 1 min spell will be good for the entire day's worth of combat.

[Temperans]

Alfa/Polaris wrote:

NemoNoName wrote:

I'm just demolishing this particular argument against it.

It's kinda laughable to say this sort of thing in general. No, I think the argument holds up fine. A caster MC and items to replicate situational spells isn't a trivial cost, and spells that occasionally let you replicate or approach martial prowess/attack bonuses do exist and...are called battleforms, the subject of this thread. The benefits of strong debuffs beyond the typical that are much more likely to actually land than an MC one, more and higher-level buffs that can warp math or give the whole party a boost, big AoEs that (again) are more likely to land for heavy damage, and more convenient/effective access to those niche utilities and items, with the option to tweak or expand spell loadout over time, in addition to skill stuff martials also have access to — it all suggests a full caster that's trying just isn't going to be out-wizarded, even after their raw power was restricted in almost all directions with the edition jump.

On a side note, I like martials with caster MCs, it's a cool aesthetic, but I also think the warping nature of high-level armchair discussions make it easy to forget how slow and limited the casting you get actually is. I'd like to hope that my character's main thing can be done by, like, Lv 4-6, 8 or 10 at most. But it would be better served with a hefty focus spell or two, because having exactly 1 slot (and 1 or 2 spells to cast in it) at Lv 4 ain't it. Ditto 2 slots at Lv 6. 3 slots at Lv 8 is, like, okay, especially with items, but at this point caster friends have 12-16 up to 4th Lv casting and more budget for those items, and between efficacy and quantity and proficiency mine are pretty much forced to be buffs or niche abilities, and there isn't even anything more (other than the extra 1st Lv slot from Breadth, if that's desired) until Lv 12! That's traditionally around or past where a campaign will end or die! Breadth+Expert casting and beyond does finally...

....looks at casters who barely get expert by level 13, and which apparently getting master at unarmed for 2 feats at level 16 is "instant errata worthy"

Sure martial mc caster should be faster. Why not make casters worse while you are at it?

[HyperMissingno]

thenobledrake wrote:

HyperMissingno wrote:

I mean, have you seen Paizo APs? My table's been running through Agents of Edgewatch and big boss fights have been a pretty regular occurrence. Hell it's not unusual for us to have two big boss fights in a single day.

I have seen them. I'm also playing them. I play a wizard in Edgewatch, and I get in melee range whenever I want to (which is often because it's often easier to aim my particular area spells by getting all up in someone's face). The only time the character has spent on the floor was when a devil crit me twice in the same turn.

And the other characters in the party, especially the fighter (the nearest thing we have to the barbarian in the prior statement) have remained outside of "dies in a couple of hits" territory.

I mean our table doesn't fall that much either, but that's only because we're running a redeemer shield champion, a heal font cleric, and a battle medicine specialist in the same party. Plus my ranger has a fair amount of heals on her too. Without the very high amount of damage reduction and recovery our party has we're all individually liable to get squished in as little as 2 rounds when a big fight comes around aside from the champion.

[Temperans]

HyperMissingno wrote:

thenobledrake wrote:

HyperMissingno wrote:

I mean, have you seen Paizo APs? My table's been running through Agents of Edgewatch and big boss fights have been a pretty regular occurrence. Hell it's not unusual for us to have two big boss fights in a single day.

I have seen them. I'm also playing them. I play a wizard in Edgewatch, and I get in melee range whenever I want to (which is often because it's often easier to aim my particular area spells by getting all up in someone's face). The only time the character has spent on the floor was when a devil crit me twice in the same turn.

And the other characters in the party, especially the fighter (the nearest thing we have to the barbarian in the prior statement) have remained outside of "dies in a couple of hits" territory.

I mean our table doesn't fall that much either, but that's only because we're running a redeemer shield champion, a heal font cleric, and a battle medicine specialist in the same party. Plus my ranger has a fair amount of heals on her too. Without the very high amount of damage reduction and recovery our party has we're all individually liable to get squished in as little as 2 rounds when a big fight comes around aside from the champion.

Honestly, it sounds like that caster is getting by because he is not targeted often by enemies. Maybe along with some luck where the GM rolls low on attack/damage. Because lets be honest. Barbarians need a lot of healing to stay up and they have more than twice the HP of casters and some DR.

Have the caster be a dedicated melee and I bet he would spent most of the fight on the ground.

[Amaya/Polaris]

Temperans wrote:

....looks at casters who barely get expert by level 13, and which apparently getting master at unarmed for 2 feats at level 16 is "instant errata worthy"

Sure martial mc caster should be faster. Why not make casters worse while you are at it?

Nah, to both. I think caster MCs are fine for what the system is going for, and in general. I also think attacks at the accuracy of a martial's second attack, or a little better, are fine things to contribute with and even invest in, and battleforms at your level do pretty well too. I just don't think either route is ever going to overshadow a full class doing that thing — which is, again, fine. Beyond the general carefulness with which the game handles proficiency boosts and comparisons, the extra interactions that master proficiency has with battleforms are what seem to make it not fine.

[thenobledrake]

HyperMissingno wrote:

I mean our table doesn't fall that much either...

Then why were you arguing with my statement? I'm confused.

Temperans wrote:

it sounds like that caster is getting by because he is not targeted often by enemies.

My caster gets targeted plenty, as do all the rest of the characters in the party.

Temperans wrote:

Because lets be honest...

Implying I'm lying doesn't actually help your argument sound more reasonable, it just comes off as rude.

Temperans wrote:

Barbarians need a lot of healing to stay up...

That's not a statement that matches up to my experiences with the game, unless the healing you are talking about comes primarily between encounters, or you're refering to any single level-appropriate healing option (example: one 2-action heal spell from a cleric's font) as "a lot."

Temperans wrote:

Have the caster be a dedicated melee and I bet he would spent most of the fight on the ground.

That probably heavily depends on whether we're talking built for dedicated melee, or the equivalent of constantly standing in the wrong place.

[HyperMissingno]

thenobledrake wrote:

HyperMissingno wrote:

I mean our table doesn't fall that much either...

Then why were you arguing with my statement? I'm confused.

Because you implied that big boss battles are rare, which I have found to not be the case. That was the entire point of my first post at you.

[thenobledrake]

HyperMissingno wrote:

Because you implied that big boss battles are rare...

No I didn't.

You're conflating hits so hard even barbarians "die" in "a couple" with "big boss battles". I've seen the latter despite not having seen the former, on account of them not being synonymous.

[HyperMissingno]

thenobledrake wrote:

HyperMissingno wrote:

Because you implied that big boss battles are rare...

No I didn't.

You're conflating hits so hard even barbarians "die" in "a couple" with "big boss battles". I've seen the latter despite not having seen the former, on account of them not being synonymous.

You're gonna need to get to rewording then because from your post a page back you seemed to be arguing that this is only a thing in big boss battles and that big boss battles are rare which is something I disagree with.

[Temperans]

thenobledrake wrote:

Temperans wrote:

it sounds like that caster is getting by because he is not targeted often by enemies.

My caster gets targeted plenty, as do all the rest of the characters in the party.

I said that it must be targeting or luck if they aren't dropping in a few hits.

thenobledrake wrote:

Temperans wrote:

Because lets be honest...

Implying I'm lying doesn't actually help your argument sound more reasonable, it just comes off as rude.

The phrase "let's be honest" does not imply that you are lying. But that my statement is generally true. Which it is, Barbarians need a lot of healing to keep up, which is why in combat healing is so important in this edition.

thenobledrake wrote:

Temperans wrote:

Barbarians need a lot of healing to stay up...

That's not a statement that matches up to my experiences with the game, unless the healing you are talking about comes primarily between encounters, or you're refering to any single level-appropriate healing option (example: one 2-action heal spell from a cleric's font) as "a lot."

If you don't think having a cleric constantly healing you in and out of combat as a lot, we disagree on what a lot is. Also 2 action version of Heal cast by a Cleric is one of the most powerful in combat healing, so you just supported my point.

thenobledrake wrote:

Temperans wrote:

Have the caster be a dedicated melee and I bet he would spent most of the fight on the ground.

That probably heavily depends on whether we're talking built for dedicated melee, or the equivalent of constantly standing in the wrong place.

You say, "constantly standing in the wrong spot". But we are talking about casters trying to use their melee CLASS abilities. So are you saying the very idea of using their abilities is a standing in the wrong spot then?

[Unicore]

Having melee abilities and ending turns adjacent to enemies without some kind of damage mitigation don’t have to go hand in hand. Sometimes, when you have a champion around, having a juicy looking target for a monster to attack is totally worth it, but casters can be exceptionally good skirmishes too. The glutton’s jaw is a fine skirmishing focus power, as are dragon claws and some of what the new witch archetype can do with their hair.

The only style of play not really supported is “full caster who can tank in melee without the support of multiple party members.” I think the closest we’ll see to that is probably going to be a strand of magus. But in reality there are very few martials who can tank alone for very long either.

[AnimatedPaper]

Unicore wrote:

The only style of play not really supported is “full caster who can tank in melee without the support of multiple party members.” I think the closest we’ll see to that is probably going to be a strand of magus. But in reality there are very few martials who can tank alone for very long either.

In fact, I recall a thread not too long ago wishing for a martial tank class, so "tanking" in general without constant ally support doesn't seem to be well supported concept.

But might be one worth adding to the "new classes to add" list.

I'm tempted to make a "What playstyles do we hope get new support" thread in the vein of my other threads, but that seems like a road right to flame wars.

[WWHsmackdown]

AnimatedPaper wrote:

Unicore wrote:

The only style of play not really supported is “full caster who can tank in melee without the support of multiple party members.” I think the closest we’ll see to that is probably going to be a strand of magus. But in reality there are very few martials who can tank alone for very long either.

In fact, I recall a thread not too long ago wishing for a martial tank class, so "tanking" in general without constant ally support doesn't seem to be well supported concept.

But might be one worth adding to the "new classes to add" list.

I'm tempted to make a "What playstyles do we hope get new support" thread in the vein of my other threads, but that seems like a road right to flame wars.

Lol. Innocent enough but I can already hear the vitriol in some responses. I wonder what dragon claw would look like if it were a dragon spit cantrip-like breath weapon instead. unarmed ranged attack like the kitsune fox fire feat so it could benefit from handwraps. Most casters want dex anyway.

[The Raven Black]

NemoNoName wrote:

Ascalaphus wrote:

They don't get to out-wizard you do they?

They don't? Skill Feats are way better than any built-in Wizard abilities and there's so many items that provide the exact same spells Wizard can cast.

In fact, a 1 min spell that gave you same attack modifier would allow you to mimic a Martial for 1/1440 of a day (since martials can just keep going). And the real strength of Martials is not merely in their main number, but in the abilities their feats give them.

Since spellcasters generally have 3 or 4 spell slots per spell level a day, that means that casting a spell allows you to mimic about 2/3*character level of their ability (2 because it's 3 spell slots for every 2 character levels, roughly speaking).
Or at 6th level, casting a spell gives you about 10-15% of spell ability a spellcaster will have.

P.S. And before the nay-sayers jump up, I don't actually want a Transformation spell. I'm just demolishing this particular argument against it.

Hmm? Don't Wizards get Skill Feats too?

[NemoNoName]

The Raven Black wrote:

Hmm? Don't Wizards get Skill Feats too?

They do, I badly wrote the sentence. I meant to say that many skill feats work just as good as many of the various utility spells.

[pauljathome]

NemoNoName wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Hmm? Don't Wizards get Skill Feats too?

They do, I badly wrote the sentence. I meant to say that many skill feats work just as good as many of the various utility spells.

No, they really don't.

For example, the level 13 rogue in my Extinction Curse is VERY VERY good at stealth. And still greatly benefits from heightened invisibility.

Many (not all) characters can finangle a way to fly a little. Air walk still sees a lot of use.

My fully invested druid/medic with lots of resources spent on battle medicine still memorizes some heal spells. And his goodberry spell still sees some use (admittedly, he mostly has it because we haven't had the time to train out of it but it IS sometimes useful)

Sure, if you're willing to spend the money you can use scrolls. But its only remotely affordable for spells below the maximum level you can cast. Things like Faerie Fire I both memorize (for the once a day I expect to use it) AND I have scrolls for the emergencies when we wander onto the Wisp level of the dungeon.

Skills are great and they DO take some of the pressure off utility spells. But work just as well? No.

.

[thenobledrake]

HyperMissingo wrote:

You're gonna need to get to rewording then...

No I'm not. You reading boss battles which I was not talking about into what I actually said isn't a problem for me to fix.

Temperans wrote:

The phrase "let's be honest" does not imply that you are lying.

According to Merriam-Webster, the meaning of the idiom "let's be honest" is that something is true and cannot be denied. So yes, when you say "let's be honest" and put your opinion after it, you're implying that anyone/everyone disagreeing with that opinion isn't being honest.

Temperans wrote:

... need a lot of healing to keep up...

You still haven't actually quantified, even in a rough ballpark way, what "a lot" is.

Temperans wrote:

If you don't think having a cleric constantly healing you in and out of combat as a lot...

Now you're deliberately misrepresenting what I'm saying. Yes, if you are constantly receiving healing that would be "a lot", but I have not experienced any character needing constant healing. It's more like sometimes someone will use an in-combat heal of somekind, most times they won't, and most of the party gets patched up between combats (but that doesn't count as "a lot" because it's typically just one treat wounds or the like per party member, or two if they had a rough time during the prior encounter, not an outlandish number that makes the games assumption character will be near full HP at the start of every encounter seem suspect).

Temperans wrote:

You say, "constantly standing in the wrong spot". But we are talking about casters trying to use their melee CLASS abilities. So are you saying the very idea of using their abilities is a standing in the wrong spot then?

Nope, that's more of you misrepresenting what I said. Let me phrase it differently to hopefully make it clear:

If you're built for melee, you're in the right spot if you're in melee.

If you're not built for melee, you're standing in the wrong spot if you're in melee.

[Cyouni]

Temperans wrote:

thenobledrake wrote:

Temperans wrote:

it sounds like that caster is getting by because he is not targeted often by enemies.

My caster gets targeted plenty, as do all the rest of the characters in the party.

I said that it must be targeting or luck if they aren't dropping in a few hits.

thenobledrake wrote:

Temperans wrote:

Because lets be honest...

Implying I'm lying doesn't actually help your argument sound more reasonable, it just comes off as rude.

The phrase "let's be honest" does not imply that you are lying. But that my statement is generally true. Which it is, Barbarians need a lot of healing to keep up, which is why in combat healing is so important in this edition.

thenobledrake wrote:

Temperans wrote:

Barbarians need a lot of healing to stay up...

That's not a statement that matches up to my experiences with the game, unless the healing you are talking about comes primarily between encounters, or you're refering to any single level-appropriate healing option (example: one 2-action heal spell from a cleric's font) as "a lot."

If you don't think having a cleric constantly healing you in and out of combat as a lot, we disagree on what a lot is. Also 2 action version of Heal cast by a Cleric is one of the most powerful in combat healing, so you just supported my point.

thenobledrake wrote:

Temperans wrote:

Have the caster be a dedicated melee and I bet he would spent most of the fight on the ground.

That probably heavily depends on whether we're talking built for dedicated melee, or the equivalent of constantly standing in the wrong place.

You say, "constantly standing in the wrong spot". But we are talking about casters trying to use their melee CLASS abilities. So are you saying the very idea of using their abilities is a standing in the wrong spot then?

So uh, have you gotten any actual experience with these classes, or any at all, since the last time this came up? Because you're sure making a lot of blanket statements about character survivability there.

[Lucy_Valentine]

Temperans wrote:

But we are talking about casters trying to use their melee CLASS abilities. So are you saying the very idea of using their abilities is a standing in the wrong spot then?

Am I understanding correctly, that this whole multi-page argument exists because some of the caster focus spells are bad? I mean, I don't want to be rude, but it does seem to me like character building in this game is all about weighing up your options, because everything has a significant opportunity cost so... can't you just write off those options as bad and move on? That's what I end up doing with about half of all class feats and a bunch of ideas that seem like they should be cool.

[Temperans]

Lucy_Valentine wrote:

Temperans wrote:

But we are talking about casters trying to use their melee CLASS abilities. So are you saying the very idea of using their abilities is a standing in the wrong spot then?

Am I understanding correctly, that this whole multi-page argument exists because some of the caster focus spells are bad? I mean, I don't want to be rude, but it does seem to me like character building in this game is all about weighing up your options, because everything has a significant opportunity cost so... can't you just write off those options as bad and move on? That's what I end up doing with about half of all class feats and a bunch of ideas that seem like they should be cool.

This whole thread did start because someone wanted more transformation spells and more support for transformation spells. Which naturally means talking about casters and their focus spells. Also do tell me an innate martial ability that requires spending almost all their feats in another class just to maybe be useable once in a blue moon?.

[thenobledrake]

Temperans wrote:

Also do tell me an innate martial ability that requires spending almost all their feats in another class just to maybe be useable once in a blue moon?.

Incredulous declaration that something doesn't work isn't actually evidence it doesn't work, you know.

[Abyssalwyrm]

Temperans wrote:

Am I understanding correctly, that this whole multi-page argument exists because some of the caster focus spells are bad?

Welcome to off topic central. No, it didn't have anything to do with focus spells.

[wegrata]

Yeah it builds down to a subset of players (myself included) find transmutation to be unsatisfying and come to the boards to vent and get advice. It jist turns into an argument because one group says those abilities don't work and another says they work as intended.

Both are absolutely valid ways to feel, but the first group, that I'm very much a part of, needs to improve communication. I feel this way because not working as intended and working as intended but unsatisfying for some set of reasons are very different thoughts and only the later is true, again for a subset of players.

[Temperans]

wegrata wrote:

Yeah it builds down to a subset of players (myself included) find transmutation to be unsatisfying and come to the boards to vent and get advice. It jist turns into an argument because one group says those abilities don't work and another says they work as intended.

Both are absolutely valid ways to feel, but the first group, that I'm very much a part of, needs to improve communication. I feel this way because not working as intended and working as intended but unsatisfying for some set of reasons are very different thoughts and only the later is true, again for a subset of players.

This almost perfectly sums it up.

I think the communication itself is fine. The problem is that the two sides just fundamentally don't see eye to eye with each other.

(I am tired of people saying we want broken casters because we don't find some spells satisfying for casters.)

[wegrata]

Temperans wrote:

wegrata wrote:

Yeah it builds down to a subset of players (myself included) find transmutation to be unsatisfying and come to the boards to vent and get advice. It jist turns into an argument because one group says those abilities don't work and another says they work as intended.

Both are absolutely valid ways to feel, but the first group, that I'm very much a part of, needs to improve communication. I feel this way because not working as intended and working as intended but unsatisfying for some set of reasons are very different thoughts and only the later is true, again for a subset of players.

This almost perfectly sums it up.

I think the communication itself is fine. The problem is that the two sides just fundamentally don't see eye to eye with each other.

(I am tired of people saying we want broken casters because we don't find some spells satisfying for casters.)

The reason I brought up communication is that saying it doesn't work sounds way more objective than the complaint is and that seems to be what some folks react too.

I was thinking about something that came up around this though, the wave casting option for getting better attack modifiers.

I'd absolutely take an option to give up versatility, especially low level slots to get better accuracy with battle forms, or spells with the attack modifier. Or really anything to lessen the sting of my top level spots feeling wasted because of picking thematic choices.

[Guntermench]

The thing is...the accuracy for battleforms isn't actually bad. I outlined it somewhere in here, it largely keeps up if you use top level slots on an appropriate spell.

Got it:

Guntermench wrote:

Martial | Animal: Level 3 | +10 | +9

Martial | Animal: Level 4 | +11 | +9
Martial | Animal: Level 5 | +14 | +14
Martial | Animal: Level 6 | +15 | +14
Martial | Animal: Level 7 | +16 | +16
Martial | Animal: Level 8 | +17 | +16
Martial | Animal | Elemental: Level 9 | +18 | +18 | +18
Martial | Animal | Elemental: Level 10 | +21 | +18 | +18
Martial | Elemental | Dragon: Level 11 | +22 | +23 | +22
Martial | Elemental | Dragon: Level 12 | +23 | +23 | +22
Martial | Elemental | Dragon: Level 13 | +26 | +25 | +22
Martial | Elemental | Dragon: Level 14 | +27 | +25 | +22
Martial | Dragon | Monstrocity: Level 15 | +28 | +28 | +28
Martial | Dragon | Monstrocity: Level 16 | +30 | +28 | +28
Martial | Monstrocity: Level 17 | +32 | +31
Martial | Monstrocity: Level 18 | +33 | +31
Martial | Incarnate: Level 19 | +34 | +34
Martial | Incarnate: Level 20 | +36 | +34

[YuriP]

Are you including runes in theses numbers?

[Guntermench]

Yes, and an Apex item.

[YuriP]

For both of them?

[wegrata]

Right that's where the works but isn't satisfying come into it.

It not satisfying for some because they have to pick between options that aren't thematically appropriate for their character to be effective, and with the tight math a few points lower can have a noticable impact and reduce your enjoyment even more.

[Guntermench]

No, the form numbers are just what you get from the spell. They aren't affected by item bonuses unless you use your own attack modifier.

[Guntermench]

wegrata wrote:

Right that's where the works but isn't satisfying come into it.

It not satisfying for some because they have to pick between options that aren't thematically appropriate for their character to be effective, and with the tight math a few points lower can have a noticable impact and reduce your enjoyment even more.

If you want to turn into a single animal all the time, play a barbarian.

[wegrata]

Now to be fair to those I disagree with. When folks ask for a caster with any morph/polymorph effect to be as effective as a primary melee character because they're using their best spell slots and during that period they can't cast. This also isn't really fair as the entire time outside of combat we still do have all the normal versatility of a caster.

It's definitely a tough tight rope to walk. Hopefully paizo can come up with options that are satisfying for everyone over time.

[YuriP]

Guntermench wrote:

No, the form numbers are just what you get from the spell. They aren't affected by item bonuses unless you use your own attack modifier.

Not exactly:

Polymorph wrote:

These effects transform the target into a new form. A target can’t be under the effect of more than one polymorph effect at a time. If it comes under the effect of a second polymorph effect, the second polymorph effect attempts to counteract the first. If it succeeds, it takes effect, and if it fails, the spell has no effect on that target. Any Strikes specifically granted by a polymorph effect are magical. Unless otherwise stated, polymorph spells don’t allow the target to take on the appearance of a specific individual creature, but rather just a generic creature of a general type or ancestry.

If you take on a battle form with a polymorph spell, the special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties. Unless otherwise noted, the battle form prevents you from casting spells, speaking, and using most manipulate actions that require hands. (If there’s doubt about whether you can use an action, the GM decides.) Your gear is absorbed into you; the constant abilities of your gear still function, but you can’t activate any items.

But in real usage probably a spellcaster won't make a real investment in runes, usually is better to invest in staffs, wands and other magic itens.

[wegrata]

Guntermench wrote:

wegrata wrote:

Right that's where the works but isn't satisfying come into it.

It not satisfying for some because they have to pick between options that aren't thematically appropriate for their character to be effective, and with the tight math a few points lower can have a noticable impact and reduce your enjoyment even more.

If you want to turn into a single animal all the time, play a barbarian.

Except you don't change into that animal as a barbarian and the rest of the class doesn't fit your vision for the character. There isn't a simple answer to this problem, and being dismissive is why these arguments come up. I want martials to have a fulfilling game experience just as much as I want casters too and talking about parts of the system that take away from that is how we get there.

[Guntermench]

YuriP wrote:

Guntermench wrote:

No, the form numbers are just what you get from the spell. They aren't affected by item bonuses unless you use your own attack modifier.

Not exactly:

Polymorph wrote:

These effects transform the target into a new form. A target can’t be under the effect of more than one polymorph effect at a time. If it comes under the effect of a second polymorph effect, the second polymorph effect attempts to counteract the first. If it succeeds, it takes effect, and if it fails, the spell has no effect on that target. Any Strikes specifically granted by a polymorph effect are magical. Unless otherwise stated, polymorph spells don’t allow the target to take on the appearance of a specific individual creature, but rather just a generic creature of a general type or ancestry.

If you take on a battle form with a polymorph spell, the special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties. Unless otherwise noted, the battle form prevents you from casting spells, speaking, and using most manipulate actions that require hands. (If there’s doubt about whether you can use an action, the GM decides.) Your gear is absorbed into you; the constant abilities of your gear still function, but you can’t activate any items.

But in real usage probably a spellcaster won't make a real investment in runes, usually is better to invest in staffs, wands and other magic itens.

If you take on a battle form with a polymorph spell, the special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties.

Your gear is an item bonus. That's more to say stuff like your Aeon Stone doesn't turn off.

[Guntermench]

wegrata wrote:

Guntermench wrote:

wegrata wrote:

Right that's where the works but isn't satisfying come into it.

It not satisfying for some because they have to pick between options that aren't thematically appropriate for their character to be effective, and with the tight math a few points lower can have a noticable impact and reduce your enjoyment even more.

If you want to turn into a single animal all the time, play a barbarian.

Except you don't change into that animal as a barbarian and the rest of the class doesn't fit your vision for the character. There isn't a simple answer to this problem, and being dismissive is why these arguments come up. I want martials to have a fulfilling game experience just as much as I want casters too and talking about parts of the system that take away from that is how we get there.

There's a level 8 feat to do just that.

[Guntermench]

wegrata wrote:

Now to be fair to those I disagree with. When folks ask for a caster with any morph/polymorph effect to be as effective as a primary melee character because they're using their best spell slots and during that period they can't cast. This also isn't really fair as the entire time outside of combat we still do have all the normal versatility of a caster.

It's definitely a tough tight rope to walk. Hopefully paizo can come up with options that are satisfying for everyone over time.

That's something that a lot of people seem to gloss over. If you want to be as good as martials in melee consistently, you're going to need to give up a large chunk of the versatility that comes from spellcasting.

[wegrata]

Guntermench wrote:

wegrata wrote:

Guntermench wrote:

wegrata wrote:

Right that's where the works but isn't satisfying come into it.

It not satisfying for some because they have to pick between options that aren't thematically appropriate for their character to be effective, and with the tight math a few points lower can have a noticable impact and reduce your enjoyment even more.

If you want to turn into a single animal all the time, play a barbarian.

Except you don't change into that animal as a barbarian and the rest of the class doesn't fit your vision for the character. There isn't a simple answer to this problem, and being dismissive is why these arguments come up. I want martials to have a fulfilling game experience just as much as I want casters too and talking about parts of the system that take away from that is how we get there.

There's a level 8 feat to do just that.

Yeah but that only solves part of the problem. If the character concept is peaceful protector of nature who takes the form of a bear. Your option are to take a class that ages out of that fairly early or one that doesn't match your theme and can do that at about half way through their career. Neither are particularly satisfying. This is why I was thinking wave casting archetypes for these cases. Give up a fairly large chunk of out of combat utility to go deeper a on these areas.

[Captain Morgan]

wegrata wrote:

Guntermench wrote:

wegrata wrote:

Guntermench wrote:

wegrata wrote:

Right that's where the works but isn't satisfying come into it.

It not satisfying for some because they have to pick between options that aren't thematically appropriate for their character to be effective, and with the tight math a few points lower can have a noticable impact and reduce your enjoyment even more.

If you want to turn into a single animal all the time, play a barbarian.

Except you don't change into that animal as a barbarian and the rest of the class doesn't fit your vision for the character. There isn't a simple answer to this problem, and being dismissive is why these arguments come up. I want martials to have a fulfilling game experience just as much as I want casters too and talking about parts of the system that take away from that is how we get there.

There's a level 8 feat to do just that.

Yeah but that only solves part of the problem. If the character concept is peaceful protector of nature who takes the form of a bear. Your option are to take a class that ages out of that fairly early or one that doesn't match your theme and can do that at about half way through their career. Neither are particularly satisfying. This is why I was thinking wave casting archetypes for these cases. Give up a fairly large chunk of out of combat utility to go deeper a on these areas.

Sounds like a synthethist summoner would fit that. Have they been confirmed for the final release of Secret of Magic? I know they were in the playtest.

[Guntermench]

The 1e version is going to come "eventually". The playtest one is kinda garbage, you stop getting hit twice by every thine but lose casting (therefore losing you math fixer cantrip) and you can't use any actions the eidolon didn't already have.

[wegrata]

Possibly, not sure. I wonder if archtypes like the weapon focused ones we saw (archer, Mauler, etc ..) for more focused casters.

Like they'd switch you to wave casting and gives enhancements for their focus to help it feel more satisfying to players.

I'd love to convert my fire sorcerer to wave casting in order to get access to more blasting focused feats.

Another player in my campaign would like to do that with their druid. They'd rather drop the majority of their utility slots to have more bang for their buck from high level slots.