|
This whole thread did start because someone wanted more transformation spells and more support for transformation spells. Which naturally means talking about casters and their focus spells. Also do tell me an innate martial ability that requires spending almost all their feats in another class just to maybe be useable once in a blue moon?.But we are talking about casters trying to use their melee CLASS abilities. So are you saying the very idea of using their abilities is a standing in the wrong spot then?Am I understanding correctly, that this whole multi-page argument exists because some of the caster focus spells are bad? I mean, I don't want to be rude, but it does seem to me like character building in this game is all about weighing up your options, because everything has a significant opportunity cost so... can't you just write off those options as bad and move on? That's what I end up doing with about half of all class feats and a bunch of ideas that seem like they should be cool.
IIRC all martial classes have Class DC that improve over levels and that are just useless in my experience.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Sounds like a synthethist summoner would fit that. Have they been confirmed for the final release of Secret of Magic? I know they were in the playtest.
Synthesist was confirmed for "coming, but not in SoM" once it became clear that it needed to be a more extensive class archetype for anyone to be happy with it.
Wouldn’t the wave casting Magus be exactly the progression people are asking for here?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I am relatively certain that a magus will have their own focus spells and be able to MC into sorcerer and pick up a few extra cantrips and then these same focus abilities. And they will probably be able to learn form spells and fight in highest level form with a martial proficiency progression. Maybe a lot of these build ideas being discussed aren’t high priority on developers to do list because they are essentially done?
But the transmuter never gets to be the best at polimorp! Best at what? Having dozens of spell slots to use to be able to adopt exactly the right form at will? Check. Turning into one form and being essentially a were creature? That seems like “not a wizard.l
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The polymorph spells keep up. Full stop. The numbers I listed aren't for a Druid with their bonus, they're strictly from the spells themselves.
The top spell level battleforms work for every primary caster class, with no stat investment required.
A qualified yes. It mostly works. Its just when you get it from an archetype, or from an ancestry feat that the numbers fall apart in combat. Some become too high, some become too low and many people are unclear as to what adds and what doesn't, because the rules are not clear or well balanced there.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I totally agree that battleforms, picked up judiciously, work fine mathematically. I totally disagree that the weird, arbitrary, restrictive thematics of those options are something to just be content with. I can't think of a good mechanical reason to keep Animal Form from scaling, and the possible thematic reasons step on some perfectly reasonable fantasies to no benefit that I can see.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I totally agree that battleforms, picked up judiciously, work fine mathematically. I totally disagree that the weird, arbitrary, restrictive thematics of those options are something to just be content with. I can't think of a good mechanical reason to keep Animal Form from scaling, and the possible thematic reasons step on some perfectly reasonable fantasies to no benefit that I can see.
I'm not really sure either while the simple animal forms don't scale all the way up. PCs have levels and just get better why can't animals.
What you should be getting out of the highers level battle forms are cool abilities like reach, senses, flight, auras, breath weapons. Which you do get in this system. Your animal companions almost sort of keep up. Why can't I transform into a bear at level 20 have have it be reasonable in combat?
When I GM, I always introduce tougher animals - nature goes all the way up past level 20.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I totally agree that battleforms, picked up judiciously, work fine mathematically. I totally disagree that the weird, arbitrary, restrictive thematics of those options are something to just be content with. I can't think of a good mechanical reason to keep Animal Form from scaling, and the possible thematic reasons step on some perfectly reasonable fantasies to no benefit that I can see.I'm not really sure either while the simple animal forms don't scale all the way up. PCs have levels and just get better why can't animals.
What you should be getting out of the highers level battle forms are cool abilities like reach, senses, flight, auras, breath weapons. Which you do get in this system. Your animal companions almost sort of keep up. Why can't I transform into a bear at level 20 have have it be reasonable in combat?
When I GM, I always introduce tougher animals - nature goes all the way up past level 20.
One issue is that the druid is balanced around using about 1/2 their class feats as a wild shaper. If Animal Form scaled all the way to level 20 suddenly the druid has to use less feats.
And to a considerable extent Animal Form DOES scale, as long as you use your own attack modifier. The extent it scales depends a lot on how you decide to rule on the various "does this work while wild shaped" spells.
Personally, I think the idea of a level 20 bear to be insanely silly. Nature really does NOT scale that far. Obviously, other people disagree. But that is part of the problem. What you see as reasonable I see as silly, what I see as reasonable you see as limited. No pleasing both of us.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
Personally, I think the idea of a level 20 bear to be insanely silly
Sillier than a level 20 human?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Personally, I think the idea of a level 20 bear to be insanely silly. Nature really does NOT scale that far. Obviously, other people disagree. But that is part of the problem. What you see as reasonable I see as silly, what I see as reasonable you see as limited. No pleasing both of us.
A typical bear does not. But then again a typical human is level 1.
Why can't there be a few a typical grizzled veterans somewhere. Why can't there be a few really large animals in some remote wild area that often fantasy worlds are full of. Mega animals of all types is a trope.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think the megafauna are what the heightened versions that already exist are for. Animal Form already gets to huge size as is.
Yeah it just caps out at relatively low level, and forces you to be enormous. We need support for a full range of Kaiju.
Animal Companions go to level 20.
We have all these high level Druids in our game world. It just seems to be required to support the class and the genre.
Martial | Incarnate: Level 20 | +36 | +34
20(lvl)+8(prof)+6(str22(with apex))+3(item bonus)=37
Then again... what if i would wan to stay in dragon form? More importantly, what if i would like permanently stay in dragon form as a druid? Due to how feat works, until lvl-19 i will be forced to use non-heightened version, for permanent duration. That's cool and all for roleplay. But when it will come to combat - i will be very underwhelmed. Even as a druid, using +2 status bonus. Especially since that a status bonus. For fighter, nothing really will stop him multiclassing as a cleric/oracle/divine-witch/divine-sorcerer. Which will grant him access to Heroism spell, and toping his already best possible attack bonus with another +2 (or even +3, if full divine ally caster will spare lvl-9 slot for that). For druid that will give him nothing (or just +1, in case again ally will cast it on him), due to the same type of bonus. And that's again for druids. It will be so much worse for wizards or sorcerers.
On top of that, you can't even modify those attacks with something like Power Attack or One-Inch Punch, since latest counts as their own unique attacks, and battleforms restrict you using any but listed in battleform attacks.
No, you not gonna be utterly useless, but i guaranty somewhere along the line you will sit there and think: "Why i didn't just picked flame oracle, or nature-witch, so i would be able to hurl highly efficient elemental spells for days?"
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Martial | Incarnate: Level 20 | +36 | +34
20(lvl)+8(prof)+6(str22(with apex))+3(item bonus)=37
This was always not counting fighters who get the extra proficiency rank, no one else does. Strength can get to 24 with the Apex item for martials.
His numbers seem fine.
You really need to do the comparison on the odd levels when the spells kick in. The numbers are typically a shade behind on the even levels.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
On top of that, you can't even modify those attacks with something like Power Attack or One-Inch Punch, since latest counts as their own unique attacks, and battleforms restrict you using any but listed in battleform attacks.
I don't see that you need to read it like that. It just seems unnecessarily perverse. You would be conflating some really loose terminology around attacks to do so.
Both of these powers use the basic strike action anyway, which the battleform spells clearly allow you to do.
I'd disagree RAW, but agree that it's dumb since the battle form wording disallows maneuvers and the Escape action, because of the difference in wording between Monk stances and the battle forms.
On top of that, you can't even modify those attacks with something like Power Attack or One-Inch Punch, since latest counts as their own unique attacks, and battleforms restrict you using any but listed in battleform attacks.
I don't see that you need to read it like that. It just seems unnecessarily perverse. You would be conflating some really loose terminology around attacks to do so.
Both of these powers use the basic strike action anyway, which the battleform spells clearly allow you to do.
Strike is how attack is implemented, so if you can't strike how do you attack?
The rules around attack and attacks and hostile are a mess of bad overloaded terminology and natural language. But that is a separate category again. 99% of people have agreed that any RAW prohibition of the Athletic based attacks is silly and was not intended.
The rules here makes sense if you read which are the only attacks you can use - as - which are the only strikes you can use.
Which is what I think they were trying to say. You are now in animal form, your weapons are melded into your form and you don't have normal hands anymore.
That is how the majority of people interpret it. But we are still waiting for an errata.
So you can take a technically correct but perverse interpretation of RAW, or you can play the game.
Striking is how you use a natural attack though. I'm not even sure the abilities have enough information to parse how they function if you assume you aren't allowed to Strike.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
If you want to be a Druid that turns into animals, the thing is that there are higher level spells that let you turn into the kinds of legendary forms that are equal to the most difficult high level challenges (aerial form, monstrous form). You still can use a level 5 slot to turn into a bear at level 20, and you will probably be the most powerful bear in all the land. You just might not be an equal challenge to a level 20 barbarian.
Both of these powers use the basic strike action anyway, which the battleform spells clearly allow you to do.
You gain the following statistics and abilities regardless of
which battle form you choose:
One or more unarmed melee attacks specific to the battle
form you choose, *which are the only attacks you can use*.
Attack is an action. Every attack consist one or more strikes, specific to that attack.
In case of Power Attack and One-Inch Punch it's modified basic strike.In case of battleforms those attacks provides very specific strike(s), listed in attack(s).
Basic strike is an attack action on it's own as well:
STRIKE [one-action]
ATTACK
You attack with a weapon you’re wielding or with an unarmed
attack, targeting one creature within your reach (for a
melee attack) or within range (for a ranged attack). Roll the
attack roll for the weapon or unarmed attack you are using, and
compare the result to the target creature’s AC to determine the
effect. See Attack Rolls on page 446 and Damage on page 450
for details on calculating your attack and damage rolls.
Critical Success As success, but you deal double damage (page 451).
Success You deal damage according to the weapon or unarmed
attack, including any modifiers, bonuses, and penalties you
have to damage.
So no, you cannot use basic strike in battleforms. You can use precisely listed attacks, and listed strikes for those attacks, and nothin else. That's what spell description says. (Especially since provided strikes in battleform attack are anything but "basic").
And even if spell would allow you to use basic strike - you still wouldn't be able to use Power Attack and/or OIP. As those are unique attacks on their own.Tbh i actually disappointed. I had few idea on how to make cool mix with battleform, and actually DO make battleforms somewhat useful, where you can compete on melee combat with fighter/barbarian of equal level.
But... what i read just tell me i can't.
As those are unique attacks on their own.
power attack is not an attack, it's an activity that modifies the strike action.
As those are unique attacks on their own.power attack is not an attack, it's an activity that modifies the strike action.
Even is so, basic strike is an attack action on it's own.
And if you're not striking what are you doing in a battle form?
What are you even rolling against when you make that attack? AC? Fort DC? Perception DC? Something else?
Does anything happen on a critical success?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Personally, I think the idea of a level 20 bear to be insanely silly.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I honestly didn't think I"d ever hear an argument that said "you can't Strike in a battle form".
Attack is an action. Every attack consist one or more strikes, specific to that attack.
In case of Power Attack and One-Inch Punch it's modified basic strike.
In case of battleforms those attacks provides very specific strike(s), listed in attack(s).
Basic strike is an attack action on it's own as well:
There is no attack action. There is only Striking.
|
|
Personally, I think the idea of a level 20 bear to be insanely silly. Nature really does NOT scale that far. Obviously, other people disagree. But that is part of the problem. What you see as reasonable I see as silly, what I see as reasonable you see as limited. No pleasing both of us.
A typical bear does not. But then again a typical human is level 1.
Why can't there be a few a typical grizzled veterans somewhere. Why can't there be a few really large animals in some remote wild area that often fantasy worlds are full of. Mega animals of all types is a trope.
I'm really NOT trying to convince you that I'm right, and I think it very unlikely that you're going to convince me that I'm wrong.
My point is that pleasing both of us is all but impossible. Paizo gets to make its choice(s) and has to live with the fact that some portion of its player base isn't going to like those choices.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Both of these powers use the basic strike action anyway, which the battleform spells clearly allow you to do.
You gain the following statistics and abilities regardless of
which battle form you choose:
One or more unarmed melee attacks specific to the battle
form you choose, *which are the only attacks you can use*.Attack is an action. Every attack consist one or more strikes, specific to that attack.
In case of Power Attack and One-Inch Punch it's modified basic strike.
In case of battleforms those attacks provides very specific strike(s), listed in attack(s).
Basic strike is an attack action on it's own as well:
STRIKE [one-action]
ATTACK
You attack with a weapon you’re wielding or with an unarmed
attack, targeting one creature within your reach (for a
melee attack) or within range (for a ranged attack). Roll the
attack roll for the weapon or unarmed attack you are using, and
compare the result to the target creature’s AC to determine the
effect. See Attack Rolls on page 446 and Damage on page 450
for details on calculating your attack and damage rolls.
Critical Success As success, but you deal double damage (page 451).
Success You deal damage according to the weapon or unarmed
attack, including any modifiers, bonuses, and penalties you
have to damage.So no, you cannot use basic strike in battleforms. You can use precisely listed attacks, and listed strikes for those attacks, and nothin else. That's what spell description says. (Especially since provided strikes in battleform attack are anything but "basic").
And even if spell would allow you to use basic strike - you still wouldn't be able to use Power Attack and/or OIP. As those are unique attacks on their own.
Yeah I see what you are saying. But there is no generic attack action. You actually can't attack without choosing an action with the attack trait. All of which are banned by the battleform spells. There is just no valid action for you to choose. You have to take Strike, an Action that builds off Strike, or another action with the attack trait. There is no generic Attack action. Except that is for Strike.
If you read it the way you are saying - which is a totally clear way to do it - then you can't attack as a Bear at all there is just no way to do it.
Its like reading a car manual which tells you must turn the wheel to direct the car, then complaining that the wheels are outside the car so you can't reach them. English is like this some times. You have to use some context. If one option is clearly viable and the other is not. Then go with the viable one.
Attack is the books sometimes means:
* anything with the attack trait
* anything with an attack roll
* just the natural English use of attack
* a basic attack ie a strike
Really they could have been a lot clearer.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
So you have only the unarmed melee attack specified by the battle form spells. Which blocks you from using other attacks. Power Attack is also not just modifying a basic strike. Its its own strike that is based on a basic strike.
Again, if you're not Striking what are you doing, and how do you resolve any of it?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
They could easily fix the battle forms for lower level battle spells by adding higher level versions in future books for those people who want a 9th or 10th level bear form or elemental form.
I know I would love a storm druid to be able to turn into some really powerful air type of elemental at high level to do battle. That would be good fun.
Lots of room to grow in this edition. It's just getting started.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I honestly didn't think I"d ever hear an argument that said "you can't Strike in a battle form".
There is no attack action. There is only Striking.Attack is an action. Every attack consist one or more strikes, specific to that attack.
In case of Power Attack and One-Inch Punch it's modified basic strike.
In case of battleforms those attacks provides very specific strike(s), listed in attack(s).
Basic strike is an attack action on it's own as well:
Attack is a game term thou.
Also, the problem is this
One or more unarmed melee attacks specific to the battle form you choose, which are the only attacks you can use.So you have only the unarmed melee attack specified by the battle form spells. Which blocks you from using other attacks. Power Attack is also not just modifying a basic strike. Its its own strike that is based on a basic strike.
Power Attack has the traits Fighter and Flourish. Note how it does not have the attack trait.
Strike is how you make unarmed attacks. If you disagree, please point to the rule and action that tells you how to make attacks.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Exactly where are these martial classes getting these high level battle form spells again?
Their best-case is that they go Druid Dedication, Order Spell, and then Basic Wilding to be a shifter, at which point they have precisely 1 level 1 class feat. This will be good until approximately level 10, at which point it starts becoming more questionable.
Meanwhile, the druid has a good chunk of level 3 spells, and can easily pick up Order Explorer to dip into another order (say, animal), and still have all their spells, and still also have Form Control for heavy form-changing versatility.
So then the fighter who solely wanted to shift into animals and punch things is doing perfectly fine, while the druid is still doing perfectly fine being a druid. This is a good thing that promotes diversity based on what people actually want.
Or how about the alternative, where this fighter spends those feats, and is worse than the caster, and still doesn't have 3rd level spells or can match the caster's versatility?
Power Attack has the traits Fighter and Flourish. Note how it does not have the attack trait.
Strike is how you make unarmed attacks. If you disagree, please point to the rule and action that tells you how to make attacks.
Yes when you look at the Attack Trait there are surprisingly few things which are attacks. Almost all feats rely on being an attack because they include strikes. But not all those feats have been done that way.
I get the tag part that was the question. But the "make a melee strike part". Which get people confused when you have strike with melee weapon and unarmed attack.But, yeah okay it seems you can use power attack. But you know what? This just means martial classes are even better at using battleform spells than casters. Not only are they getting better stats. But they are also able to use their high level class feats, which casters have no access too.
Yes but they get feats at half the level of the druid, so that they don't get the best forms. I guess that is why the heightening of spells has limits.