GEM Spells

[jrock9430]

Rules Question:
Is the Void Whispers level 0 spell castable at levels 1 & 2? As far as I can read, per the duration, nothing happens until the caster reaches level 3.
http://aonsrd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Void%20Whispers&Family=Non e

[Ravien999]

I feel it's pretty clearly meant to be 1 round per 3 levels, meaning over 3rd you get a second round, but it'd be great to clear the ambiguity.

[Celestial Healer]

Agreed. It is safe to assume that the designers never intended the spell to be non-functional before 3rd level. They likely just neglected to include (minimum 1) in the duration.

[Artemis Valerian]

You'd think that there would be a rule somewhere stating if a spell's duration isn't listed, it defaults to something like 1 round or 1 round/caster level.

[Xenocrat]

I assume any FAQ changing the duration will also change it from a cantrip to a 3rd level spell.

[Ravien999]

But xenocrat, that would turn it into one of the worst 3rd level spells in existence.

[Garretmander]

Ravien999 wrote:

But xenocrat, that would turn it into one of the worst 3rd level spells in existence.

It's definitely not a cantrip though.

Save or be pseudo staggered, and secondary saves to other targets or be confused is pretty strong for a spell. It completely shuts down melee enemies if they fail their save, plus confuse? 3rd level is about right.

[jrock9430]

What concerns me the most is when the target makes their save, they are only immune until the "spell ends." So the Mystic or Witchwarper (or any character that takes Connection Linking) can cast this spell non-stop! lol

It can be devastating to enemies and allies alike.

[Sasha Laranoa Harving]

I think it works fine as a cantrip. It's save DC is going to be lower than even 1st-level spells. I'd honestly wager that making it a higher level spell makes it more effective due to how Starfinder DCs are calculated.

A casting-optimized mystic with 20 WIS (after personal upgrades) and Spell Focus is going to have a save DC of... 16. For a spell that would last either two or three rounds or so until you're working with 4th-level spells.

Would you rather, as a level 7 mystic, cast a DC 16 spell that does okay-but-not-great battlefield control for two or three rounds... or inflict pain[i/] at DC 18 for thorough debuffs for 7 rounds and partial effects on a failure?

The save DC, low duration, and action economy cost make void whispers much less effective than a lot of people are painting. It's good, yes, but even if an enemy botches their save, it's much less likely to change the shape of the battlefield than a well-placed [i]mind thrust or puncture veil.

[Ravien999]

Honestly, the low save DC combined with the fact that it needs not one, but 2 to Combatants+1 saves to actually lay down any amount of control makes it incredibly difficult to use well, and a single save disables its multi-round potential, and the random movement can actually cause it to rebound back on your allies.

That, combined with the fact that attacking the target at all ends the spell, even if the attack is unsuccessful, means that you cannot readily use it for combative advantage.

Add in the fact that the debuff it applies to the creatures is confused, which effectively has 0 drawbacks against an enemy you have already engaged, means that it is potentially more of a risk for your party than it is for enemy combatants, unless you can focus backline combatants such as casters - which are more likely to have an improved Will save and resist or be immune to it.

Another fun tidbit is that the language does not state that the target expends its entire turn moving once. "The target must attempt a Will save; on a failure, it whispers incoherently and takes a move action to move half its speed in a random direction." Theoretically, this means it still has a standard and swift to spend on other actions.

[jrock9430]

Ravien999 wrote:

Another fun tidbit is that the language does not state that the target expends its entire turn moving once. "The target must attempt a Will save; on a failure, it whispers incoherently and takes a move action to move half its speed in a random direction." Theoretically, this means it still has a standard and swift to spend on other actions.

You could read "whispers incoherently" as 'not able to perform other action in that round,' due to incoherency, don't you think? What would the affected creature do with its remaining actions?

[Cellion]

While I don't think this is anywhere near a 3rd level spell, there are several scenarios where it dramatically outperforms other cantrips.

When cast against a melee creature engaged with your melee allies: It causes that creature to provoke AoOs as it moves away. Your allies can capitalize on those AoOs to deal significantly more damage than any other cantrip puts out. The target is also denied its ability to full attack, and potentially ends up out of range of making its own melee attacks by the time the spell is broken. Because the spell ends on being attacked, you can time your casting of it so that you never risk your own melee allies starting their turn while the spell is active near them (so they never have to make a save vs confusion). >This deals more damage than any other cantrip, while also providing a significant control effect that messes up one creature's turn<

When cast at mid levels against clustered foes at the start of combat: Although the save DC is low, this has an OK chance of disrupting an enemy group you haven't engaged yet. Hitting a ranged or melee combatant with this and messing up their first turn, while potentially also messing up the turns of its allies standing nearby, is pretty valuable. Obviously, hitting an enemy group with slow or confusion is going to be far more disruptive, but this has the potential to provide a weaker degree of control when those spells are not available or you want to conserve them.

When cast against ranged creatures in cover or near many obstacles: At middle levels, you have enough range on this spell to hit foes behind the main line of melee that may be trying to use cover to protect themselves. The forced movement will take them out of cover. Alternatively, if in interior environments with a lot of rooms and corridors, landing this spell will probably cause back line foes to randomly march into side passages and rooms where they no longer have line of sight on the fight, costing them at least 1 turn if not more as they randomly march again on subsequent turns. This does a fairly good imitation of the daze monster spell, but with no CR limitation.

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@jrock: The victim definitely still has their standard action remaining on their turn. That's why people up-thread are calling it a "pseudo-stagger" effect. It uses up one move action.

[jrock9430]

Cellion wrote:

@jrock: The victim definitely still has their standard action remaining on their turn. That's why people up-thread are calling it a "pseudo-stagger" effect. It uses up one move action.

@Cellion, yeah, makes sense; otherwise, this cantrip would be more OP than it already is; OP per your list above.

This should probably be a spell that uses slots. I would have to say it's a level 1 spell and not a level 0 spell. It's pretty devastating / disrupting overall for being a level 0 spell and it even scales up with levels, which cantrip don't typically do.

@Cellion, I didn't think about the AoO opportunities and yanking ranged enemies out of cover! That's just domineering right there. There are higher-end spells that don't even do this much, and easily beats some of the Solarian's graviton abilities.

[Cellion]

Personally, I think this is a 1st level (or maybe 2nd level) spell. In a lot of ways, its quite similar to Command in its ability to force AoOs and use up enemy actions. In some ways it is more limited (it won't use up a whole enemy turn unless you're tactical in how you use it and you can't use it to get enemies to drop objects or fall prone), but in others it is more flexible and powerful (Sometimes it'll affect multiple enemy creatures and sometimes it'll occupy a foe for multiple rounds).

Small incidental shoutout to the Command spell. That spell does not get the credit it deserves.

[jrock9430]

Changing Void Whispers to a level 1 spell would make more sense for Connection Inklink as well. I don't think this cantrip should be easily available, especially as a cantrip, through the feat.

[Garretmander]

Sasha Laranoa Harving wrote:

I think it works fine as a cantrip. It's save DC is going to be lower than even 1st-level spells. I'd honestly wager that making it a higher level spell makes it more effective due to how Starfinder DCs are calculated.

A casting-optimized mystic with 20 WIS (after personal upgrades) and Spell Focus is going to have a save DC of... 16. For a spell that would last either two or three rounds or so until you're working with 4th-level spells.

Would you rather, as a level 7 mystic, cast a DC 16 spell that does okay-but-not-great battlefield control for two or three rounds... or inflict pain[i/] at DC 18 for thorough debuffs for 7 rounds and partial effects on a failure?

The save DC, low duration, and action economy cost make void whispers much less effective than a lot of people are painting. It's good, yes, but even if an enemy botches their save, it's much less likely to change the shape of the battlefield than a well-placed [i]mind thrust or puncture veil.

You're most likely correct that at higher levels this spell drops off steeply without a team dedicated to lowering enemy saves (and at that point you should use slot spells) However, at levels 1-4 where enemies can quite easily fail a DC 13-14 save, it has power far closer to a level 1 spell in terms of battlefield control.

[Xenocrat]

Xenocrat wrote:

I assume any FAQ changing the duration will also change it from a cantrip to a 3rd level spell.

He shoots, he scores!

GEM Errata wrote:

Page 114: Void whispers is a 3rd-level spell. Change the second sentence to the following.

The target must attempt a Will save; on a failure, it begins whispering incoherently and moves half its speed in a random direction. On its turn, it does nothing except whisper incoherently and move half its speed in a random direction.

[Cellion]

Interestingly, they upgraded how it affects the primary target, significantly changing its role from an AoO producer to a hard CC that sometimes confuses other creatures nearby. Before, it used up a move action only, now it locks the victim entirely out of acting.