Hello!
My group of 5 characters (fighter, rogue, sorcerer, shaman and bard) are all level 5 and about to head to Racker's alley in Seven days to the grave.
This far they've managed every encounter quite well and I'm wondering if letting them fight the 4 vampire spawns one level early will be too tough for them?
According to the anniversary edition of CotCT they're supposed to be lvl 6 and a group of 4 characters. We're all pretty new to Pathfinder and therefore I'm probably not playing the enemies as tough as I could. The group has no clue that vampires are involved and are heading there as the sun is setting, but they happen to have one or two silver weapons, silver syren, bardic Magic to bypass DR, holy water, and some divine magic to help them out. Also I'm planning to have the vampires go gaseous at 0 HP and head back to their coffins for the player characters to hopefully finish them there.
So should I let them have a go at this challenging encounter even if they still lack about 1000XP to lvl 6 which is the recommended lvl in the adventure module?
As long as the spawn don't (successfully) use their dominate ability on more than one or two party members, and you let the party be able to tell who is dominating who, they should be fine. They will likely want to rest off those energy drains, but Vampire spawn are fairly weak in everything except the HP department.
Even if the vampire spawn do dominate someone, it can simply order that person to not resist so it can go in for a blood drain, taking both the vampire and the dominated person out of the fight in a way that can't quickly result in the dominated person's death.
Also keep in mind that one of the four is normally hiding in the alley on guard/feasting while the others sleep inside. If they can kill one isolated, that's one CR 4 encounter and a CR 7 encounter instead of one big CR 8 encounter. Even then a party of four should be able to handle a CR=Lvl+3 (the CR if you fight all 4 at once) encounter fairly easily as long as they are expending resources, and the party has an extra player.
My group of four went at them at 6th level and got their butts kicked when they started to dominate. They barely made it out alive, and had to expend a lot of resources. Three of your guys should have a high enough will save to resist them though.
As long as the spawn don't (successfully) use their dominate ability on more than one or two party members, and you let the party be able to tell who is dominating who, they should be fine. They will likely want to rest off those energy drains, but Vampire spawn are fairly weak in everything except the HP department.
Even if the vampire spawn do dominate someone, it can simply order that person to not resist so it can go in for a blood drain, taking both the vampire and the dominated person out of the fight in a way that can't quickly result in the dominated person's death.
Also keep in mind that one of the four is normally hiding in the alley on guard/feasting while the others sleep inside. If they can kill one isolated, that's one CR 4 encounter and a CR 7 encounter instead of one big CR 8 encounter. Even then a party of four should be able to handle a CR=Lvl+3 (the CR if you fight all 4 at once) encounter fairly easily as long as they are expending resources, and the party has an extra player.
Thanks!
Just what I needed to hear. They are getting quite confident and this encounter might scare them a bit ;). But I'll try to follow your suggestions when it comes to Dominate and fighting the scout vampire first.Regarding energy drain, the level damage is temporary and resting for 8 hours gives a level back, right?
I think you should go ahead with the encounter. (but negative levels may be temporary or permanent depending on some saves--here's my notes:
If a vampire succeeds on a Slam attack, a victim automatically takes 1 negative level (2 on a confirmed crit). The vampire then gets 5 temporary hit points (for one hour). This ability only triggers once per round, regardless of the number of attacks the vampire makes. Negative levels remain until 24 hours have passed or until removed with a spell. If a negative is not removed before 24 hours have passed, the affected creature must make a DC 13 Fort save for each negative level. On a success, the negative level goes away. On a failure, the negative level becomes permanent. [Negative Levels: cumulative -1 on all ability checks, attack rolls, combat maneuver checks, CMD, saving throws, and skills checks. Current and total hit points reduced by 5. Treated as one level lower for the purpose of all level-dependent variables, but otherwise spellcasting is not affected. If negative levels ever equal/exceed target’s hit dice, it dies.]
Actually, unless the energy drain ability on the monster says it becomes permanent, you continue to receive chances to save each day until they are all removed.
Some spells and a number of undead creatures have the ability to drain away life and energy; this dreadful attack results in “negative levels.” These cause a character to take a number of penalties.
For each negative level a creature has, it takes a cumulative –1 penalty on all ability checks, attack rolls, combat maneuver checks, Combat Maneuver Defense, saving throws, and skill checks. In addition, the creature reduces its current and total hit points by 5 for each negative level it possesses. The creature is also treated as one level lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables (such as spellcasting) for each negative level possessed. Spellcasters do not lose any prepared spells or slots as a result of negative levels. If a creature’s negative levels equal or exceed its total Hit Dice, it dies.
A creature with temporary negative levels receives a new saving throw to remove the negative level each day. The DC of this save is the same as the effect that caused the negative levels.
Some abilities and spells (such as raise dead) bestow permanent level drain on a creature. These are treated just like temporary negative levels, but they do not allow a new save each day to remove them. Level drain can be removed through spells like restoration. Permanent negative levels remain after a dead creature is restored to life. A creature whose permanent negative levels equal its Hit Dice cannot be brought back to life through spells like raise dead and resurrection without also receiving a restoration spell, cast the round after it is restored to life.
And of course vampire spawn have no such text.
Actually, unless the energy drain ability on the monster says it becomes permanent, you continue to receive chances to save each day until they are all removed.
And of course vampire spawn have no such text.Some spells and a number of undead creatures have the ability to drain away life and energy; this dreadful attack results in “negative levels.” These cause a character to take a number of penalties.
For each negative level a creature has, it takes a cumulative –1 penalty on all ability checks, attack rolls, combat maneuver checks, Combat Maneuver Defense, saving throws, and skill checks. In addition, the creature reduces its current and total hit points by 5 for each negative level it possesses. The creature is also treated as one level lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables (such as spellcasting) for each negative level possessed. Spellcasters do not lose any prepared spells or slots as a result of negative levels. If a creature’s negative levels equal or exceed its total Hit Dice, it dies.
A creature with temporary negative levels receives a new saving throw to remove the negative level each day. The DC of this save is the same as the effect that caused the negative levels.
Some abilities and spells (such as raise dead) bestow permanent level drain on a creature. These are treated just like temporary negative levels, but they do not allow a new save each day to remove them. Level drain can be removed through spells like restoration. Permanent negative levels remain after a dead creature is restored to life. A creature whose permanent negative levels equal its Hit Dice cannot be brought back to life through spells like raise dead and resurrection without also receiving a restoration spell, cast the round after it is restored to life.
My understanding is that the "Energy Drain" universal monster ability (which vampire spawn have) always has temporary negative levels transforming into permanent negative levels unless removed before 24 hours have passed and if the relevant saving throw is failed:
"Energy Drain (Su): This attack saps a living opponent’s vital energy and happens automatically when a melee or ranged attack hits. Each successful energy drain bestows one or more negative levels (the creature’s description specifies how many). If an attack that includes an energy drain scores a critical hit, it bestows twice the listed number of negative levels. Unless otherwise specified in the creature’s description, a draining creature gains 5 temporary hit points for each negative level it bestows on an opponent. These temporary hit points last for a maximum of 1 hour. Negative levels remain until 24 hours have passed or until they are removed with a spell such as restoration. If a negative level is not removed before 24 hours have passed, the affected creature must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 the draining creature’s racial HD + the draining creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). On a success, the negative level goes away with no harm to the creature. On a failure, the negative level becomes permanent. A separate saving throw is required for each negative level."
Ah you're right, for some reason I recalled a fairly recent (at the time of previous posting) thread about that being either old wording or something that not all temporary negative levels become permanent, specifically in the context of energy drain. But in either case they, or I, would be wrong.
So it can be a "ouch, my wealth by level" moment if they fail a moderately easy fort save, and considering the high demand on clerics for spells, given the epidemic, it would likely become a fairly heavy drawback if you got hit by more than one of them. That said, most characters on the front lines should probably have decent con and good fort saves, and a cloak of resistance by level 4/5 for at least a +7 bonus.
Keep in mind that you don't HAVE to play the vampire spawn optimally and have them all attempt to dominate at once, i.e., most are too blood-crazed or overconfident that they simply leap to attack rather than using dominate. Either save the dominate attempts for when the battle starts to turn against the vampire spawn or only have 1 vampire spawn per round attempt to dominate, that way you can judge how they're doing and how much would be overkill. You're the DM - play them however you think best for your campaign.
*just saw the date on the first post - any updates on how this went?*
Keep in mind that you don't HAVE to play the vampire spawn optimally and have them all attempt to dominate at once, i.e., most are too blood-crazed or overconfident that they simply leap to attack rather than using dominate. Either save the dominate attempts for when the battle starts to turn against the vampire spawn or only have 1 vampire spawn per round attempt to dominate, that way you can judge how they're doing and how much would be overkill. You're the DM - play them however you think best for your campaign.
*just saw the date on the first post - any updates on how this went?*
The encounter started quite scary with the vampire spawns jumping out of the ground climbing the walls in the small crowded room. The fighter did get dominated but I did let him regain control after a succesful Will save when the vampire got to 0 HP and turned to mist. Funny thing, the rogue who happened to have the according tarot choosing card and also a friendly relation to Giotorri, managed to roll 3 confirmed criticals with her silver dagger which turned the fight around really fast :). After that the shaman knew how to take care of the vampires once they had gone back to their coffins.
Sounds like an exciting encounter, and maybe put a little fear into them as well!