My adventurers "killed" the graveknight and put it's head and armor inside their bag of holding. They left the body rotting in the dungeon hallway.
QUESTIONS:
Does the graveknight rejuvenate while in the bag of holding?
Can the graveknight (undead) open the bag of holding from the inside?
What is the perception check if a party member opens the bag of holding to get out an item but by chance see's the growing body or grown body of the Graveknight?
BAG OF HOLDING;
If a bag of holding is overloaded, or if sharp objects pierce it (from inside or outside), the bag immediately ruptures and is ruined, and all contents are lost forever. If a bag of holding is turned inside out, all of its contents spill out, unharmed, but the bag must be put right before it can be used again. If living creatures are placed within the bag, they can survive for up to 10 minutes, after which time they suffocate. Retrieving a specific item from a bag of holding is a move action, unless the bag contains more than an ordinary backpack would hold, in which case retrieving a specific item is a full-round action. Magic items placed inside the bag do not offer any benefit to the character carrying the bag.
If a bag of holding is placed within a portable hole, a rift to the Astral Plane is torn in the space: bag and hole alike are sucked into the void and forever lost. If a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it opens a gate to the Astral Plane: the hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there, destroying the portable hole and bag of holding in the process.
Editor's Note: Bag of Holding refers to the space inside as "non-dimensional" whereas the rules on extradimensional spaces explicitly refer to bags of holding as examples of extradimensional spaces.
Here is the description of the Graveknight and it's armor;
GRAVEKNIGHT;
Rejuvenation (Su)
One day after a graveknight is destroyed, its armor begins to rebuild the undead horror's body. This process takes 1d10 days—if the body is destroyed before that time passes, the armor merely starts the process anew. After this time has elapsed, the graveknight wakens fully healed. The lust for battle and sheer will to win allow some truly evil and vile warriors to shrug off their final defeat.
GRAVEKNIGHT ARMOR;
Additional Gravenight Armor Information;
Through methods that remain poorly understood, the vengeful spirit of such a fearsome combatant sometimes forms a bond with its armor that permits it to simply refuse death, its spirit lingering long past when it should have gone on to its eternal punishment in the afterlife. Similar in many ways to a lich’s phylactery, this armor rebuilds the undead knight’s body whenever it is beaten in combat. Only by utterly destroying the armor, by annihilating it rather than just breaking it into pieces, can an opponent truly end the existence of the despicable creatures known as graveknights.
In death, the graveknight's life force lingers on in its armor, not its corpse, in much the same way that a lich's essence is bound within a phylactery. Unless every part of a graveknight's armor is ruined along with its body, a graveknight can rejuvenate after it is destroyed. A typical suit of full plate graveknight armor has hardness 10 and 45 hit points, though armor with enhancements or made of special materials proves more difficult to destroy. Merely breaking a graveknight's armor does not destroy it; it must be ruined, such as by being disintegrated, taken to the Positive Energy Plane, or thrown into the heart of a volcano.
Note: The following information has been added from other sources (see Section 15: Copyright Notice for details.)
Anyone who treats a graveknight’s armor as simply battle spoils risks both body and soul. Graveknights rejuvenate when destroyed. Their bodies literally grow back, with tendrils of undead flesh coiling out from recesses in their armor like gruesome creepers, unless opponents take pains to also obliterate the armor. These unholy strands have no objection to infesting a living host instead of producing a new body for their master.
People who claim a graveknight’s armor rarely recognize the threat until too late, as part of the magic of the rejuvenation makes wearers oblivious to the invasion of their own bodies. When they take the armor off to sleep, they overlook the puncture marks and deep fissures upon their skin. Some sinister instinct also causes them to conceal these wounds from their companions. Only the particularly observant (and a DC 25 Perception check) perceive the peril in time help their friend cast aside the armor.
Once the rejuvenation period ends 1d10 days later, the wearer must make a Will save (DC equal to 10 + 1/2 the graveknight’s HD + the graveknight’s Cha modifier) each day to avoid transforming into the original graveknight. This transformation consumes mind as well as body, immediately slaying the victim and utterly destroying the body.
To wear graveknight armor safely, its new owner must cleanse it of evil and forever sever its connection to its undead master. This cleansing requires the casting of three different spells in rapid succession. Two are always break enchantment and holy word. The third varies with each graveknight and relates back to the unique circumstances surrounding its first death and return. Figuring out the correct spell usually entails a great deal of research and careful thought. And of course, while this detective work is happening, the armor continues to steadily regenerate the graveknight.
1) I would think it would rejuvenate, magic doesn't seem to cease to function in the bag as far as I know.
2) I could see him puncturing the bag and destroying it if they don't notice after he's fully rejuvenated.
3) From my novice point of view, the Armor seems relatively sneaky, and the need for break enchantment on the armor seems to mean it also has some magic going on to hide its purpose.
I'd say the DC 25 perception would be good if they are actively checking on the armor, and higher if they are just rifling through. I could see the armor purposely hiding itself until it's fully grown back into the full knight. It could pile itself in a way to make the growing body hard to see. Maybe it even uses an enchantment spell to make the character believe it is still just a suit of armor requiring a will save.
Depends also on how you interpret the bag's space, if you see the bag as a bag that gets bigger as it fills or as like a little room you can arrange stuff in.
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Being inside the bag does not shut the armor down. Those players are about to be in for a surprise. :)
This is all essentially houserule backed up by implicit reading of rules.
First, as far as opening the bag from the inside, it's still "tied shut" as a normal sack would be; from the outside. It would be impossible to open the bag from the inside because you can't loosen the drawstring from inside and trying to tear your way through obliterates the contents. The body grows from within the armor so, at first, casual inspection wouldn't reveal much; you'd have to investigate the armor itself and check inside to see the "creepers" growing. It's also likely to be dark inside the bag which would, essentially, be "terrible conditions" imparting a +5 to the DC. Also, the stage of growth is important; at early stages, it'd be literally impossible to notice it "at a glance" because it's all within the confines of the armor pieces. But when it grows enough that the body starts becoming visible to casual inspection, you'd have a chance to notice it in passing.
So, first, determine how long the rejuvenation period is (1d10) and cut that in half to determine the "less visible" period. For example, if you roll '3', the whole process takes 3 days with 1.5 days being within the deep confines of the armor and the following 1.5 days the growth starts to extend out of the armor so it can be casually noticed. For the sake of explanation, we'll call these the "invisible" and "visible" stages, respectively. In the 'invisible' stage, I'd say a 25 DC if you're actively investigating the armor (equivalent to noticing a burrowing creature or noticing someone being affected by wearing said graveknight armor) +5 if it's still in the bag (no light) and no option to notice it if you're just rifling through the contents. During the 'visible' stage, it'd drop down to a 0 DC (to notice a creature) if you're actively investigating and a 20 DC (equivalent to noticing a secret door) to casually notice it, again, +5 if without light. If it passes unnoticed to the end of the rejuvenation period, then the chance to notice it in passing is opposed by its Stealth check if it's trying to hide in the bag but probably a 0 DC check if you're specifically investigating the armor (again, +5 without light) since you know the armor is in there and finding the armor equates to finding the creature. Then, it's all a matter of the motivations of the creature; whether it will try to hide until you try to grab the armor or try to grab you when you open the bag in the midst of a battle to grab your healing potion or wand or whatever.
wraithstrike wrote: Being inside the bag does not shut the armor down. Those players are about to be in for a surprise. :) Hey Wraithstrike! Great to get your help and advice again!
Kazaan,
You make some very convincing and well thought out suggestions. I like your ideas which also agree with the other posters.
They open the bag and drag the first player in after a grapple check -10
Reecy,
Oh man that would be NASTY! The player would have 10 minutes to survive, of course the adventurer wouldn't last that long against the Graveknight.
QUESTION:
If this happened how would a party member stand or have footing in a dimensional space? Aren't you floating in a dimensional space?
How does a range attack work in a bag of holding? Isn't there items floating around between two opponents?
What i would do is make 5x5 room and have the stuff littered around...
And have it using all their stuff against them... Heck for fun you can have something in there that they didn't know was there.
Bag Type
Bag Weight Contents Limit Contents Volume Limit Market Price
I 15 lbs. 250 lbs. 30 cubic ft. 2,500 gp
II 25 lbs. 500 lbs. 70 cubic ft. 5,000 gp
III 35 lbs. 1,000 lbs. 150 cubic ft. 7,400 gp
IV 60 lbs. 1,500 lbs. 250 cubic ft. 10,000 gp
you can base the room size on this if you want by volume of the bag
You could also do Fly checks... Ranged attacks would not work if they are floating around... It would be a crazy fight lol and one bad fired shot would kill everyone.
Reecy wrote: ...Bag Type
Bag Weight Contents Limit Contents Volume Limit Market Price
I 15 lbs. 250 lbs. 30 cubic ft. 2,500 gp
II 25 lbs. 500 lbs. 70 cubic ft. 5,000 gp
III 35 lbs. 1,000 lbs. 150 cubic ft. 7,400 gp
IV 60 lbs. 1,500 lbs. 250 cubic ft. 10,000 gp
you can base the room size on this if you want by volume of the bag
For reference, a Type III bag of holding is a little over a single 5' cube in total volume, while a Type IV is just right for two 5' cubes stuck together. It would probably be much like trying to fight in a half-deflated bouncy house, although whether that removes Dex from AC or simply penalizes AC and attack rolls is a call for the GM. Note the potential consequences of piercing or slashing attacks that miss.
I definitely have it try to drag someone in. If their arm is in the bag then it is in the extradimensional space along with the graveknight. :)
Definitely don't have it drag anyone in until someone specifically puts his/her arm into the bag. That way everyone will think that it has turned into a bag of devouring and completely flip out.
After the first player is dead, then you can have the graveknight stab the side of the bag to make it explode. He'll emerge from the explosion with one of the party's weapons in one hand, and the head of his first victim in the other.
*is a horrible person*
Edit: Also keep in mind that the process of retrieving an item from a bag of holding is semi-magical. Those retrieving the items don't necessarily even look at much of what is inside. I kind of think of it as a "santa's bag of toys" situation where you just reach in and a few moments later find whatever you were looking for. This could make it much easier for the Graveknight to remain hidden while regenerating.
Matrix Dragon wrote: After the first player is dead, then you can have the graveknight stab the side of the bag to make it explode. He'll emerge from the explosion with one of the party's weapons in one hand, and the head of his first victim in the other. It doesn't work that way. If the bag ruptures for any reason, the contents simply cease to exist/get lost on the astral plane and, for all inspection, it looks like a simple, mundane, torn bag.
Still, I can totally get behind the imagery of the graveknight preparing a grapple maneuver for when someone has their hand in the bag.
Turn 1: Grapple, "Uh... guys... my hand is stuck in the bag..."
Turn 2: Grapple check to move *pull into bag* "Hi there" "(O.O) AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!"
Neat as the image is, I'm not sure even a pin draws the target into the grappler's space. It's different if this is a Type IV bag, which would allow the GK enough retreat room to use a Drag maneuver...
It is a Type IV Bag of Holding.
Lincoln Hills wrote: Reecy wrote: What i would do is make 5x5 room and have the stuff littered around... For reference, a Type III bag of holding is a little over a single 5' cube in total volume, while a Type IV is just right for two 5' cubes stuck together. It would probably be much like trying to fight in a half-deflated bouncy house, although whether that removes Dex from AC or simply penalizes AC and attack rolls is a call for the GM. Note the potential consequences of piercing or slashing attacks that miss.
I disagree with interpreting bag of holding interiors like this. As they contain nondimensional/extradimensional space, it would not likely be simply "bigger on the inside" like doctor who or something, but rather a undefined area surrounded by a black body. There's no space limitation indicated on the bags, rather only a volume limitation of the contents. This means the area could be rather large depending on the spacing between items. I would reason that the spacing is only such that the items don't deform, but otherwise will be as close as possible.
If you were to consider them as close as possible, there would still be some weird combat mechanics going on though — as you suggested.
One could say that the spacing between items is greater though, too; in which case combat would be difficult or impossible for melee.
It's weird stuff that's very interpretable, but one thing I personally think people should agree on is that it isn't a defined space inside.
The biggest problem with not having a fixed size, is to figure out how in the world the bag could get punctured from the inside. That's a big downside to this system, and would have to assume that sharp things moving around whatsoever (even in "air") inside the bag could cause damage to it.
Joesi wrote: Lincoln Hills wrote: Reecy wrote: What i would do is make 5x5 room and have the stuff littered around... For reference, a Type III bag of holding is a little over a single 5' cube in total volume, while a Type IV is just right for two 5' cubes stuck together. It would probably be much like trying to fight in a half-deflated bouncy house, although whether that removes Dex from AC or simply penalizes AC and attack rolls is a call for the GM. Note the potential consequences of piercing or slashing attacks that miss.
I disagree with interpreting bag of holding interiors like this. As they contain nondimensional/extradimensional space, it would not likely be simply "bigger on the inside" like doctor who or something, but rather a undefined area surrounded by a black body. There's no space limitation indicated on the bags, rather only a volume limitation of the contents. This means the area could be rather large depending on the spacing between items. I would reason that the spacing is only such that the items don't deform, but otherwise will be as close as possible.
If you were to consider them as close as possible, there would still be some weird combat mechanics going on though — as you suggested.
One could say that the spacing between items is greater though, too; in which case combat would be difficult or impossible for melee.
It's weird stuff that's very interpretable, but one thing I personally think people should agree on is that it isn't a defined space inside.
The biggest problem with not having a fixed size, is to figure out how in the world the bag could get punctured from the inside. That's a big downside to this system, and would have to assume that sharp things moving around whatsoever (even in "air") inside the bag could cause damage to it. My argument is simple, that I agree that the largest flaw in your argument is how objects could pierce the sides. I view the interior of the bag as a stretchy nylon material, which makes it more or less conform to the shapes of the objects placed within, just like a backpack. This also falls in line with the reading that it takes longer to retrieve a stored object if there's more in the bag than you could put in a backpack. Because normally, unstretched, that's about the size of the bag. But when it gets stretched, you've got this mess of stuff inside an elastic bag. Like one of those mesh bags full of legos, it'll hold things, even sharp things, right up until you put too much in there. Then, any sharp things at the edges will poke and tear through the sides, rupturing the bag and in this case, destroying utterly and without trace one (1) adventurer and one (1) Graveknight, along with everything else in the bag. If you want to be a nice DM you can have other players nearby attempt an Aid check to keep the player from going in (if you want to be semi nice, you can do so but leave his arm in the bag to be gnawed off) and then decide whether the GK comes out to play or whether they get the bag sealed in time.
Either way, this will be a memorable campaign, and I'll be borrowing your idea some day in the distant future when I have a group again. :)
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