What happens when a PC rolls a higher initiative than the ambushing Ether Spider that has not yet popped in from the Ethereal Plane? Assume the Ether Spider's Stealth modifier easily beats the PCs' Perception DCs.
Also, would it be possible for the Ether Spider to drag someone? Sort of the opposite of Shove? What if they hit them with Ethereal Web Trap and then pulled on the trailing strand?
But why would a player character do any of that if there's nothing threatening in the area; no indication whatsoever that anything is happening until the spider's turn?
If I say space begins to warp, or the dust vibrates a moment before it appears, or something like that--and that's what clued them in that something was wrong--what do I say when they start looking for that effect in later rounds? It'd be like shooting the Ether Spider in the...tarsus.
What happens when a PC rolls a higher initiative than the ambushing Ether Spider that has not yet popped in from the Ethereal Plane? Assume the Ether Spider's Stealth modifier easily beats the PCs' Perception DCs.
Also, would it be possible for the Ether Spider to drag someone? Sort of the opposite of Shove? What if they hit them with Ethereal Web Trap and then pulled on the trailing strand?
The PCs that beat the spider on Initiative would know something is coming, and be able to act accordingly. The others wouldn't be aware until the aware PCs notify them. At least, that seems to be the RAW answer. RAI, the Spider would just automatically go first since the PCs presumably do not have the capacity to sense the creature popping in from another plane prior to combat.
There are no drag rules, and the ability doesn't say there's an option to leave a strand for the creature to tug on a captured PC. By RAW, all the effect does is create an adhesive that immobilizes the targets where they stand. A GM might want to do things that way, and that's fine. But it is houserule territory.
The PCs that beat the spider on Initiative would know something is coming, and be able to act accordingly. The others wouldn't be aware until the aware PCs notify them. At least, that seems to be the RAW answer. RAI, the Spider would just automatically go first since the PCs presumably do not have the capacity to sense the creature popping in from another plane prior to combat.What happens when a PC rolls a higher initiative than the ambushing Ether Spider that has not yet popped in from the Ethereal Plane? Assume the Ether Spider's Stealth modifier easily beats the PCs' Perception DCs.
Also, would it be possible for the Ether Spider to drag someone? Sort of the opposite of Shove? What if they hit them with Ethereal Web Trap and then pulled on the trailing strand?
Even when the PCs beat the spider on initiative, they Spider beat all of their Perception DCs in this instance. How does that impact things?
Should the spider even get a Stealth check against the PCs? It's not even on the same plane.
The PCs that beat the spider on Initiative would know something is coming, and be able to act accordingly. The others wouldn't be aware until the aware PCs notify them. At least, that seems to be the RAW answer. RAI, the Spider would just automatically go first since the PCs presumably do not have the capacity to sense the creature popping in from another plane prior to combat.What happens when a PC rolls a higher initiative than the ambushing Ether Spider that has not yet popped in from the Ethereal Plane? Assume the Ether Spider's Stealth modifier easily beats the PCs' Perception DCs.
Also, would it be possible for the Ether Spider to drag someone? Sort of the opposite of Shove? What if they hit them with Ethereal Web Trap and then pulled on the trailing strand?
Even when the PCs beat the spider on initiative, they Spider beat all of their Perception DCs in this instance. How does that impact things?
Should the spider even get a Stealth check against the PCs? It's not even on the same plane.
It impacts as I say it does. The PCs know something is coming, but they don't know what or who without further investigation. They might know where, since they would have to in order to know something is coming, but not unlike a hidden creature, they wouldn't be able to clearly interact with it until it comes out to fight.
A fair point. It technically wouldn't trigger combat until it enters the Material plane, since it being in the Ethereal plane means it can't interact with any of the PCs, and vice-versa.
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It's... spider sense! :D
Really, they realize something is wrong (narrate it in any way that makes sense), and their good Initiative roll gives them an advantage even if they can't yet detect/attack the enemy. They can raise their shield, use a buff, ready an action, or just delay.
I think this is more of an advice issue than a rules issue, so I'm not sure how useful my answer will be for you. It depends on what you're looking for. Anyway, with that disclaimer out of the way, here are my thoughts:
I see a few ways of running this scenario, or really any scenario in which a creature (PC, Friendly NPC, or Enemy NPC) rolls a higher initiative than everything that it currently knows exists and/or is a threat, whether they're in this plane of existence or not.
In order of what I would personally recommend:
1. Play it off as the character being incredibly quick to react when the threat finally reveals itself, letting them pop into initiative at the earliest relevant moment.
- Mechanically: Allow the PC or NPC to delay their turn even though the character doesn't know something's coming)
2. Rolling higher than the approaching threat means that they have some kind of gut feeling that something's wrong and are cautious, but don't really know why.
- Mechanically: They could then choose to ignore it, use defensive or searching actions, or even delay their turn.
3. Insist that because the character is unaware of the threat they should continue on as normal.
- Mechanically: They continue doing any exploration activity they were doing before the encounter started and nothing more.
The reason why I don't like the last option as much is because I don't like the idea of punishing a character (Friendly or Hostile) for rolling high.
I'd run it as a perfect ambush.
As noted, it's on another plane and IMO that narrative wins out.*
But I'd let the higher initiatives go immediately after the first spider rather than skipping them until the next round.
*If I did want to balance affairs (or if the adventure said as much) I might have the location be its/their hunting ground so that it's not so much the spider signalling the party as it is the remnants of battle.
Whether it's debris or a notable lack of debris would depend on how smart I want to play the spiders.
"Gosh, gang, this space in these old ruins looks swept and I see drops of blood and web residue. Be wary."
Still wouldn't be able to abide with detect danger for mechanical or meta reasons. Sets a bad precedent of detecting across planar boundaries and/or precognition.
Oh, and regarding the second question about dragging. All I can really say is: It's not in the creature's statblock, and it isn't a basic action, so technically no. You could say that a grabbed creature can be dragged using the dragging rules for objects and creatures, but by RAW the grab stops once you move. Additionally, that could cause some issues if fighting around hazards. I'd rather not have any creature be able to insta-kill anyone just because we happen to be near a cliff and they succeeded on a single grab check. If you manage to do that with pushes after the player gets too close to the edge, then that's on them, but anything more powerful than that at least deserves some thought about the implications IMO. I'm not saying it'd be OP or anything. Just that it could have unintended consequences, so I'd be careful.
Also, the web wouldn't help here, because they're immobilized due to being stuck to the nearest surface. The second you pull them away from the surface it doesn't make much sense for them to be immobilized anymore. After all, even while immobilized they have enough freedom of movement to attack, just not leave that square. At least, that's how I read it.
As for pulling, one might run it like a Shove except that you have to Grapple (or Grab) the target first.
Won't be practical in most cases, but since pulling is something people might want to do, it's one answer.
I would sixth sense that.
"You know you're in danger but you don't know from what or from where."
They now have the option to delay their turn or look for clues in the surroundings raise their shield, buff someone, ready an action,...
For 2) Athletics vs Fortitude DC sounds right to move grabbed characters. Don't know about appropriate distances.
But why would a player character do any of that if there's nothing threatening in the area; no indication whatsoever that anything is happening until the spider's turn?Why do people wake up in the middle of the night, grab a baseball bat from near their bed, then stalk around their house with it raised ready to swing... only to find that they have no idea if the sound they swear must have woken them up even actually happened or if they dreamt it?
The scenario I described (before, not just this question) doesn't require any knowledge of what is happening to play out. The character genuine has no idea if they are actually in danger or just being paranoid, but they are capable of being paranoid, even just occasionally.
The character could also just brazenly stride across the map, even if there were a dozen trap triggers along the path they intended to take, or they could stand still and use all their actions to Seek in a variety of spots (or even just the same spot, repeatedly), because doing things - even things that end up being beneficial to have done - almost never actually requires any kind of special knowledge to do them.
And beyond that, the player picks actions for their character because it's their character's turn. That's why the character would do any of that.
Lastly, but not least, the reasoning that suggests the actions I described are out of line applies equally to the character even having their shield, weapon, and armor with them; they don't know that they are going to run into monsters while out and about to day, they just think they will and are planning according to that thought.
Are you using false alarms* as reasoning?
That seems to suggest rolling initiative for most any circumstance, including some false alarms, which I guess could be a thing.*a.k.a. Hyperactive Agency Detection Device, as in run from the wind rustling the grass because sometimes that rustle comes from a tiger.
Sometimes I narrate the party through false alarms because yes, I would suppose PCs experience those, yet I don't want to waste their resources nor our RPG time. I agree the party, at least in enemy territory, should be paranoid and given the benefit of the doubt re: safety precautions.
Feel like it would make more sense in this scenario to have the initiative roll happen when the ether spider pops out, not when it's sitting there completely undetectable and not interacting with anything.
I would describe it as the characters who beat the spiders in the initiative notice something distinctly magical and/or unnatural occurring in the area: strange noises, strange wind, etc. Something to indicate the area is unsafe, but not know where it's coming from.
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Feel like it would make more sense in this scenario to have the initiative roll happen when the ether spider pops out, not when it's sitting there completely undetectable and not interacting with anything.
The problem is the Ether spider's ability works as a free action on its first turn. Other creatures (including other spiders) have reactions that trigger before initiative is rolled. Not so here.
That said, you're not wrong it probably makes more sense. But I personally like the spider sense approach.
Feel like it would make more sense in this scenario to have the initiative roll happen when the ether spider pops out, not when it's sitting there completely undetectable and not interacting with anything.The problem is the Ether spider's ability works as a free action on its first turn. Other creatures (including other spiders) have reactions that trigger before initiative is rolled. Not so here.
I don't think that's necessarily a problem. The spider can appear, initiative is rolled and then on its first turn that combat it can return to the ethereal plane as a free action.
That seems a lot cleaner and more consistent with how combats generally work than having the spider get to always go first or other similar solutions.
Feel like it would make more sense in this scenario to have the initiative roll happen when the ether spider pops out, not when it's sitting there completely undetectable and not interacting with anything.The problem is the Ether spider's ability works as a free action on its first turn. Other creatures (including other spiders) have reactions that trigger before initiative is rolled. Not so here.I don't think that's necessarily a problem. The spider can appear, initiative is rolled and then on its first turn that combat it can return to the ethereal plane as a free action.
That seems a lot cleaner and more consistent with how combats generally work than having the spider get to always go first or other similar solutions.
I lucked out in my game tonight, as everyone went after the spider anyways.
In the future though, I think I'll run it like Squiggit.
