I always creating combat oriented bulds, but recently i was interested in social or magic builds ( like Brazen Deceiver bard)
Recently i looked Investigator archetypes and found Infiltrator archetype and its look interesting: redused disgiuse penalties, and bonus to disguise checks which stacks with extracts bonuses.
The idea immediately comes to mind of a spy who spies on important persons in the kingdom, and secretly eliminates enemies
In addition to disguise, he most likely needs good bluff and diplomacy bonuses so as not to arouse suspicion, but investigator cant freely use inpiration with diplomacy and bluff without a talent
In such build i thinking about dipping 1-2 levels brawler, for IUS, Martrial Flexability and Brawler fury, Martial Training but i dont know will it hurt to alchemy?
in my opinion spy must work silent, quiet and bloodlessly, so nonlethal damage is right way
For buff Bluff or diplomacy i think take a half elf with Skill Focus Bluff. Taking extra feats for disguise maybe right idea , but i think with redused penalties and bonuses from Mimic Mastery disguise checks already have high chance to sucsess
There are smthg special , that i need to know abot disguise and what should I consider when making a build focused on this?
For reference: INFILTRATOR.
(Not to be confused with INFILTRATOR, INFILTRATOR or INFILTRATOR)
So I had a quick look at the archetype. The bonuses are nicely thematic, and you're not losing anything you care about (poison use, looking at you).
For a dip, I'd be hesitant to dip more than 1 level, but a lot of people dip for Investigators since they get very little to help them in combat before level 4. If you're going to 20 I'd avoid the dip if possible, because I think the capstone is pretty powerful, but you will spend a lot more time playing before the capstone than with it.
Personally I think Brawler makes a great dip. I'd probably just go 1 level for martial Flexibility, but flurrying with Inspired Combat will be nice if you get it going. Just remember you probably want an INSPIRED weapon eventually, so if you put feats into a weapon try to make it one that's compatible with that.
For reference: INFILTRATOR.
(Not to be confused with INFILTRATOR, INFILTRATOR or INFILTRATOR)
So I had a quick look at the archetype. The bonuses are nicely thematic, and you're not losing anything you care about (poison use, looking at you).
For a dip, I'd be hesitant to dip more than 1 level, but a lot of people dip for Investigators since they get very little to help them in combat before level 4. If you're going to 20 I'd avoid the dip if possible, because I think the capstone is pretty powerful, but you will spend a lot more time playing before the capstone than with it.
Personally I think Brawler makes a great dip. I'd probably just go 1 level for martial Flexibility, but flurrying with Inspired Combat will be nice if you get it going. Just remember you probably want an INSPIRED weapon eventually, so if you put feats into a weapon try to make it one that's compatible with that.
in any game in which I played or was a GM, no one reached the 20th level, so capstone looks unreachable
I think then dagger can inspired weapon. But again, i think its a weapon, guards can detect it and and it will attract attention
Then yeah that sounds good. I think Brawler makes a pretty good dip.
You can always have a +1 Inspired weapon as a combat option, but leave it behind when you're infiltrating. The Inspired weapon isn't going to be a huge boon till you get the Combat Inspiration talent at Investigator-9, so it won't come online for a while anyway.
So I read through the archetype a little more thoroughly, and there are 2 main take-aways.
1. You want high disguise and bluff skills, so take the Underworld Inspiration talent. Getting free Inspiration on disguise will be a noticable boon. Personally I'm a huge fan of Half-Elf Investigators for the FCB . Stacking it with Amazing Inspiration and Tenacious Inspiration turns your Inspiration from a nice small bonus into a ludicous one. Amazing and Tenacious Inspiration both give ~+1 to Inspiration rolls, and when combined it takes your average Inspiration roll to ~+5.8. With a Half-Elf you can get it to an average of ~+9.8 . That's a huge bonus to be using on important attack rolls and saves, heck you might be able to out-strength the Barbarian from time to time. Now you don't have to stack all these bonuses, but the Half-Elf FCB strongest part of it - just something to think about.
2. So this is a weird bit of probably-unintentional power creep. Normally Polymorph spells allow you to take a form, but not a specific form. Eg, you can turn into a tall black woman, but you can't turn into Venus Williams. This means you can probably disguise yourself as a palace guard, but you can't disguise yourself as the Archbishop of Walakia, since anyone who knows the archbishop will instantly recognise that you're not him ...
Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature's type.
... with this archetype however, you CAN assume the form of specific individuals ...
Mimic Mastery (Su): At 2nd level, when an infiltrator uses disguise self or any polymorph extracts on himself, he is treated as 2 investigator levels higher for the purpose of determining the duration of that extract’s effect. He can use these extracts to take the appearance of specific individuals of the type of form he chooses, gaining a +10 to Disguise checks even if that extract does not typically grant such a bonus. Furthermore, these extracts grant the infiltrator a +10 bonus to Disguise checks made as part of his voice mimicry ability. This ability replaces poison resistance.
... Now the obvious intent here is to allow some roleplay shenanigans where you DO pretend to be the Archbishop , but there's another part to this. You can take polymorph forms usually unavailable to others due to this clause, forms that are obviously more powerful than the level of extract meant you to have. You can pick boss monster stat-blocks instead of regular monster stat-blocks.
Most notably you can use MONSTROUS PHYSIQUE II to assume the form of GREAT OLD ONE YIG. Now there are obvious roleplaying benefits to becoming an ACTUAL DEITY, but the stat-block also has some pretty amazing features - like a 6d10 damage bite attack.
Now my first reading of this makes me think that's all legal, but I'm prepared to be proven wrong, so don't go telling your GM "This is RAW", because it may well be that I'm missing something. Even if I'm not missing something it's still extremely unlikley that this was an intended benefit of the class, so I think the GM would not be unreasonable to disallow a CR:27 form. My advice would be to talk to the GM ablut it, and come up with some rules for your table about how to run this.
Remember you need a bit of Yig to polymorph into him, and that bit is destroyed on use as a material component. Yig might have opinions on this and be prepared to make them known to you if you get hold of a scale somehow. Eschew materials won't help an investigator with this because investigators don't quite cast spells.
Getting hold of 4-armed gargoyle toes is easier but perhaps not automatic.
Nah Yig's a pretty chill guy, he doesn't really care if people kill him and such, it doesn't ultimately matter that much to him.
But seriously, earning the ire of a Great Old One is perhaps the least unpleasant side-effect of transforming into one on a regular basis.
wow, I had no idea that theoretically with this ability I could be like the Great Old One, thanks for the info. Transforming into a specific person / monster simplifies the task, but I don't think that transforming into great or famous monsters will be useful most often. I think it will be more useful when changing some important people, like nobles, officials and the like.
Half Elf FCB is really cool. having a static bonus when roll inspiration (albeit small) is already pretty good. Does this boneus only go to inspiration rolls on skills, or generally to inspiration rolls (for example, an attack or a saving throw)?
wow, I had no idea that theoretically with this ability I could be like the Great Old One, thanks for the info. Transforming into a specific person / monster simplifies the task, but I don't think that transforming into great or famous monsters will be useful most often. I think it will be more useful when changing some important people, like nobles, officials and the like.
Just to be clear, even if I am right about that avr is correct, you do need a piece of Yig to transform into Yig. And while it doesn't have a price listed it would NOT be easy to find. Talk to your GM about this, it's totally rrasonable to say it doesn't work.
Half Elf FCB is really cool. having a static bonus when roll inspiration (albeit small) is already pretty good. Does this boneus only go to inspiration rolls on skills, or generally to inspiration rolls (for example, an attack or a saving throw)?
Yeah it'll work on any Inspiration, so skill checks, anility checks, attack rolls, saving throws. As long as you spend the inspiration you get the bonus. Or if you get the Expanded/Underworld Inspiration talents you get the bonus without spending Inspiration.
Amazing/Tenacious Inspiration increase the numbers, but Combat Inspiration and Quick Study are the ones you really want if you're going to use Inspiration on Attack rolls and Saving throws.
wow, I had no idea that theoretically with this ability I could be like the Great Old One, thanks for the info. Transforming into a specific person / monster simplifies the task, but I don't think that transforming into great or famous monsters will be useful most often. I think it will be more useful when changing some important people, like nobles, officials and the like.Just to be clear, even if I am right about that avr is correct, you do need a piece of Yig to transform into Yig. And while it doesn't have a price listed it would NOT be easy to find. Talk to your GM about this, it's totally rrasonable to say it doesn't work.
Half Elf FCB is really cool. having a static bonus when roll inspiration (albeit small) is already pretty good. Does this boneus only go to inspiration rolls on skills, or generally to inspiration rolls (for example, an attack or a saving throw)?Yeah it'll work on any Inspiration, so skill checks, anility checks, attack rolls, saving throws. As long as you spend the inspiration you get the bonus. Or if you get the Expanded/Underworld Inspiration talents you get the bonus without spending Inspiration.
Amazing/Tenacious Inspiration increase the numbers, but Combat Inspiration and Quick Study are the ones you really want if you're going to use Inspiration on Attack rolls and Saving throws.
I think and Expanded/Underworld Inspiration and Amazing/Tenacious Inspiration and Combat inspiration with Quick study are very useful, but considering dipping 1 - 2 lvL Brawler, i think talent progression will a bit slower( but i can always take Etra Investigator Talent).
Levels in brawler gives me some combat power, so i think that first i need to take Underworld Inspiration for Bluff and Disguise and then Expanded Inspiration for extra skills with free inspiration
I assume that the starting character level should be 5. At what level then should i take the brawler's levels?
Brawler 1 / Investigator 4 is a perfectly reasonable place to start. You get studied combat and 2nd level extracts, and the most important part of brawler is the first level. If you find yourself desperately wanting feats you can get brawler 2 later - not before you get investigator 4.
I agree with avr. 1 level of Brawler gets you a lot, more than that less-so. If you decide you reeaally want to flurry you can take a second level of Brawler, but I'd get to Investigator-4 before taking the 2nd level of Brawler.
I think first level of Brawler is one the strongest first levels. And i think that compensates Investigator who gainsfull abilities from 4th level.
But about flurry now i have a doubts. Is extra attack and combat maneuver will be very beneficial, taking into account the bonuses from Student Combat?
Useful enough, but it's basically the two-weapon fighting feat. You get two feats for that one level (brawler 2), one combat feat and ~TWF which is nice. Is it nice enough to delay increases in studied combat, extracts, investigator talents, other odd class abilities? Probably not but it depends a bit on how short of feats you find yourself.
Well ... probably not, but maybe.
Investigators end up with VERY high to-hit rolls, they're better at hitting than most full-BAB classes. They also get a decent static damage boost from Studied Combat (+1/2 level). It's not going to be the huge damage that a Fighter or Barbarian puts out but it's decent.
The thing about static damage boosts though, is that the more attacks you have the more that damage helps. If you're getting +4 damage per hit, then hitting 3 times instead of 2 is better. So since Investigators have more than enough accuracy to happily take a -2 to hit, and there's an obvious benefit to making as many attacks as possible per round, a 2-level Brawler dip seems like it synergizes pretty well. The bonus feat, increased BAB and better fort-saves are all just the cherry on top.
Having said that, Invesigators have their own ways of getting more attacks - Monsteous Physique/Haste/etc - and in general are much more flexible than the Brawler. Taking an extra level in Brawler will not only delay their own multi-attack options, but also all their other class benefits.
Personally, I think a 1 level dip into Brawler is an amazing way to shore up some weaknesses of the class, and Martial Flexibility never goes out of style. If the idea of Flurrying is core to the character you've imagined then it's a strong enough synergy that I say go for it . If you just want the 2nd level of Brawler for power, then I think you're probably better off skipping it. It's certainly not bad , but I think you'll be happier without unless it's something you were going for anyway.
Yeah, extra attack which is compensated by the studied combat bonuses, and the combat featt, with a full BBA, looks good, but build is not made quite for combat. Combat this alternative - if something goes wrong during espionage
Well if you want to flurry you can take another level in Brawler.
You could feasably begin the game as a Brawler-1/Investigator-4 and just see how you go as you level. There's nothing stopping you from taking the next level of Brawler if you feel you need/want it. My guess is you won't feel like you need it, but if you want it then go for it.
One last thing about Investigators: Investigators are by far the best skill-monkeys in the game. During combat you probably won't compete with a well-built martial character, and you won't have the same plethora of tricks as a wizard, but you'll hold your own very comfortably in both of those combat and useful magics.
But in skills you run the very real risk of making the rest of the party entirely obsolete. You likely have more skills per level than any other class and you can add pretty hefty bonuses to those skills at a whim. You also have Extracts and discoveries that give you even more bonuses to whatever skills you need at any given time. I would 100% not play an Investigator if there is a Rogue in the group. You'd have to try pretty hard not to take over their role in the party.
I'd pick a few skills that you're going to be the best at but let the others have their skills too. If there's an important skill the party is missing by all means you should fill that gap, but jumping onto Knowledge Religion when there's a Warpriest with the Knowledge Blessing in the party is just going to invalidate their choices as you do the job better than they ever could.
Basically, try not to hog the spotlight too much when it comes to skills, make sure you leave room for the others to have a time to shine as well.
Yes, I dont want be a teams brain. I can help team with knowledge or some other skills, but i think its not main specialization. I think it will work like with that bard build, only if I was there with the team in active time, and while the team was doing different things, I negotiated with the bandits, then here on the contrary, most likely in important events I will transform into others and help team from far away
What then about feats?
In this case i think to go
Str 13
Dex 14
Con 12
Wis 10
Cha 12 ( for a little bonus on social skills)
Depends, what combat-style do you want?
Power Attack, Improved Unarmed Strike and Combat Expertise are the prerequisites for all the "Improved <combat maneuver>" feats, so you could flex into them if needed. You probably don't need all of them though (and you already have IUS).
Besides that ... Extra Investigator Talent? It really depends what you plan on doing. I'm sure there are some bluff/disguiese related feats that are pretty good, but if all they do is give static bonuses you may not need them.
Depends, what combat-style do you want?
Power Attack, Improved Unarmed Strike and Combat Expertise are the prerequisites for all the "Improved <combat maneuver>" feats, so you could flex into them if needed. You probably don't need all of them though (and you already have IUS).
Besides that ... Extra Investigator Talent? It really depends what you plan on doing. I'm sure there are some bluff/disguiese related feats that are pretty good, but if all they do is give static bonuses you may not need them.
Well, i dont know about social feats, or disguise depends feats