Leap questions (Dancing Leaf + Powerful Leap + Crane Stance)

[Beenrak]

So I have been playing around with making a jump-based monk that uses Crane Stance, Dancing Leaf, and Powerful Leap but how these all get combined are tricking me up a bit.

Crane Stance reduces the DC of High/Long jump by 5, and allows you to move an additional 5ft horizontally or 2ft vertically when you leap.

Dancing Leaf increases the distance you jump by 5 feet when you leap, or succeed at a high/long jump.

Powerful Leap increases your base vertical leap to 5, and increases the distance you can leap horizontally by 5 feet.

So, if I understand this correctly:

Crane Stance
Reduces DCs of High/Long jump but does not increase their distance
If taking the raw leap action, gives you either +5ft horizontal (if leaping horizontally) or +2ft vertical (if jumping vertically)

Powerful Leap
Increases basic vertical leaping from 3 to 5, but does not affect high jump
Always increases the horizontal distance of your leap by 5 (regardless of if you are doing a horizontal/vertical leap or high/long jump)

Dancing Leaf
For all three types of leaps, increases the distance of your leap by 5ft. What does this increase apply to though?

If I am doing a horizontal leap that's easy, just add 5. But what if I am doing a vertical leap which by default is 3 feet vertical and 5 feet horizontal? Does it just add to the horizontal? Just to vertical? Do I pick which one? Does it apply to both?

In the best case scenario, Dancing Leaf applies its 5ft in all cases which, at its peak, would allow the following:

Horizontal Leap: 10/15Base + 5(Crane) +5(Dancing) +5(Powerful) = 25/30ft

Vertical Leap:
-------Vertical: 5(Base with Powerful) + 2(Crane) + 5(Dancing) = 12ft
--Horizontal: 5(Base) + 5(Dancing) + 5(Powerful) = 15ft Horizontal

Thoughts?

[Cordell Kintner]

When you Long Jump you're actually increasing the distance of your Leap, so Crane Stance still applies.

So here's an example: You want to Long Jump 30 feet. The standard DC is 30. With Crane Stance, you only need to Long Jump 25 feet, so DC 25, but also lower the DC by 5 making it 20. Dancing Leaf increases your distance another 5 feet, so that's a DC15 to Leap 30 feet, and Powerful Leap is ANOTHER 5 feet. That's a grand total of a DC 10 to leap 30 feet. If you rolled a 30, you would leap 50 feet! Of course you're still capped by your Speed, so you can only go so far.

Also here's a Designer reference about how Long Jump works.

[Kuzcoburra]

This question came up recently on the /r/Pathfinder2e subreddit. You should find an enlightening coverage of all of these feat interactions In This Thread, with this answer. (EDIT: haha, well you were the person who posted it in that reddit thread. Now the answer's in two places!)

The answer can be summarized as "Stuff that affects Leaping isn't cumulative with stuff that affects Long Jump/High Jumps", and this is because Leap is a subordinate action of the High Jump/Long Jump activity, so you "leap normally" and then Leap is modified in the particular ways of each activity. So the "increase the distance" modifies the already-increased Leap distance.

That's not to say that the bonuses to Leaping don't help Long/High Jumps (because you leap, and then the effects of the Leap are increased to some value), but rather that it sets an effective minimum for how far forward/upwards you can Leap on a Long/High Jump since you're still Leaping and no other parts of the Leap are modified.

With all three abilities, it looks like:

Horizontal Leap: Base {10~15ft horiz, 0ft vert}
+ Powerful Leap {+5ft horiz, +0ft vert} + Dancing Leap {+5ft horiz, +0ft vert} + Crane Stance {+5ft horiz, +2ft vert}
= total {25~30 ft horiz, 2ft vert}

Vertical Leap: Base {5ft horiz, 3ft vert}
+ Powerful Leap {+0ft horiz, =5ft vert} + Dancing Leap {+5ft horiz, +0ft vert} + Crane Stance {+5ft horiz, +2ft vert}
= total {25 ft horiz, 7ft vert}

High Jump: Base {5ft horiz, =3ft/=5ft/=8ft vert} on a F/S/CS;
→ Vertical Leap modified to {=25ft horiz, =7ft/=7ft/=8ft} on a F/S/CS;
+ Powerful Leap {no additional effect} + Dancing Leap {+0ft/+5ft/+5ft horiz, +0ft vert} on a F/S/CS + Crane Stance {no additional effect, but DC reduced by 5}
= total {25 ft horiz, 2ft vert}

Horizontal Leap: result and DC depend on the "desired distance" ("DD"): Base {10~15ft / DD horiz, 0ft vert} on a F/S;
→ Horizontal Leap modified to {=25~30ft / DD ft, 2ft} on a F/S;
+ Powerful Leap {no additional effect} + Dancing Leap {+5ft horiz, +0ft vert} + Crane Stance {no additional effect since it doesn't change the "desired distance", but can effectively let you reach a desired distance of 5ft higher than you'd be able to get otherwise by lowering the DC}
= total {25~30 ft / DD+5 ft horiz, 2ft vert} on a F/S.

Might have had a typo or two transcribing the results from the other thread. Sorry if so.

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There's definitely some ambiguity in some terms but the Leap vs. Long/High Jump parts are pretty straight-forward. (for example, Dancing Leaf says "increase the distance you jump by 5 ft". Does this mean horizontal distance? Both horizontal and vertical distance? Horizontal distance for horizontal leaps, but vertical distance for vertical leaps?

In the other thread, the answer assumed "horizontal distance only" for Dancing Leap on Leap actions, as any other interpretation would completely eliminate the need for a DC 40 athletics check to high jump with a single 2nd level class feat and no training since you can auto-reach 8ft?. Crane stance has a similar question with what its +5ft and +2ft movement rules are supposed to work on)

To correct the above user's example: if you had a desired Long Jump distance of 35 ft, you could Leap 30ft based on your speed (can't be 25ft, since you have to have a speed of 35ft to leap this far), or attempt a DC 25 Athletics check to make a Long Jump with a desired distance of 30 ft, and on a success you move 35ft.

If you wished to only Jump 30ft (or fewer), you could simply Leap. No athletics check needed.

Note the nuanced difference between "DC" and "Desired Distance". A Check result of 40 wouldn't mean you jump up to 40 ft. If your desired distance was 41ft, you fail the check and leap normally (30ft), falling 10ft short. If your desired distance was 35ft, you succeed and leap 35ft. You have to pre-commit the desired distance before hand