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So I have been playing around with making a jump-based monk that uses Crane Stance, Dancing Leaf, and Powerful Leap but how these all get combined are tricking me up a bit.

Crane Stance reduces the DC of High/Long jump by 5, and allows you to move an additional 5ft horizontally or 2ft vertically when you leap.

Dancing Leaf increases the distance you jump by 5 feet when you leap, or succeed at a high/long jump.

Powerful Leap increases your base vertical leap to 5, and increases the distance you can leap horizontally by 5 feet.

So, if I understand this correctly:

Crane Stance
Reduces DCs of High/Long jump but does not increase their distance
If taking the raw leap action, gives you either +5ft horizontal (if leaping horizontally) or +2ft vertical (if jumping vertically)

Powerful Leap
Increases basic vertical leaping from 3 to 5, but does not affect high jump
Always increases the horizontal distance of your leap by 5 (regardless of if you are doing a horizontal/vertical leap or high/long jump)

Dancing Leaf
For all three types of leaps, increases the distance of your leap by 5ft. What does this increase apply to though?

If I am doing a horizontal leap that's easy, just add 5. But what if I am doing a vertical leap which by default is 3 feet vertical and 5 feet horizontal? Does it just add to the horizontal? Just to vertical? Do I pick which one? Does it apply to both?

In the best case scenario, Dancing Leaf applies its 5ft in all cases which, at its peak, would allow the following:

Horizontal Leap: 10/15Base + 5(Crane) +5(Dancing) +5(Powerful) = 25/30ft

Vertical Leap:
-------Vertical: 5(Base with Powerful) + 2(Crane) + 5(Dancing) = 12ft
--Horizontal: 5(Base) + 5(Dancing) + 5(Powerful) = 15ft Horizontal

Thoughts?

Looks like this made it into the errata!

Page 283: In the definition for the thrown weapon trait, change the first sentence to “You can throw this weapon as a ranged attack, and it is a ranged weapon when thrown.”

Not counting the actual rules as written for a moment -- it seems logical to me that all 'thrown weapons' should fall under the same category with respect to feats.

Why would Point Blank Shot -- something designed to do more damage if you are close to the target -- work for a javelin but not a thrown spear. They are functionally identical except that since a javelin is designed for throwing, it is easier to throw it farther.

Rules as written Far Shot doubles ANY range increment (presumably even an improvised thrown weapon). So my training allows me to throw ANYTHING further than a normal person -- yet me being at 'point blank range' (which is inherently less powerful for melee thrown weapons due to their shorter range increment) would not increase my damage. Its an odd inconsistency that I do not believe is intended.

since it's a brand new edition, if they wanted all thrown weapons to be ranged, they would have made them ranged, so i think it's deliberate that some are melee and some are ranged, i mean, they went out of their way to make different applications of the thrown trait for each of them, so if it wasn't intentional, then why would they bother to do so and not just lump them...

Well to be fair, the book does not have a 'mixed' section. A Hatchet is listed under Melee Weapon because it is primarily a melee weapon. Its range is minimal and not the primary use of the weapon -- its a bonus. I think Hatchet does belong in the 'melee weapon' category. I also think however, that it should count as a ranged weapon for the purposes of feat prerequisites when you are using it to make a ranged attack.

Liir I think that is at least consistent within the rules -- but it also means that there are not many feats that actually modify thrown weapons.

Looking through the following classes, these are the feats that seem to follow the rules you put forward:
* Barbarian: Raging Hurler, Knockback, Brutal Critical
* Fighter: Incredible Aim(+Incredible Ricochet)
* Ranger: Hunter's Aim(+Targeting Shot), Quick Draw, Deadly Aim, Far Shot

I suppose this is a reasonable list, but it still feels a bit off to me.

I had the same questions yesterday but the thread got lost. Here

So this is very interessting for me.

I also would guess that the intention for hatchets is that they are melee while wielded but count as ranged weapons when thrown. Otherwise Raging Thrower makes not much sense.

I wish the text of the thrown trait would be clarified.

Wow we really covered similar ground heh. Yea its very confusing. I've brought it up here, on reddit, and at my work and it seems that people are somewhat divided on rules as written (it is a melee weapon, and therefore works with double slice) or rules as intended (its a ranged weapon when thrown, and works with ranged weapon feats).

No matter which side you pick, there are outliers that don't make much sense (such as the barbarian feats). Either way, thrown weapons really did not get a lot of love in the core rulebook :(

So then your expectation is that it is more about the attack type than the weapon type.

So, if I intend to throw a hatchet I treat it as if I were 'wielding a ranged weapon' and if I intend to melee I treat it as if I were 'wielding a melee weapon'. I would therefore then qualify for both Point Blank Shot AND Double Slice if I were wielding two hatchets -- however could only use one or the other depending on if I was making melee or ranged attacks.

This is all very reasonable to me -- I just wish it was a little more explicit in the rules.

So I have been looking through the rules trying to figure out what feats (and rules) apply and do not apply to thrown weapons -- and it is seemingly very complex and perhaps contradictory?

Note: I am using the online SRD as evidence of my findings here, but this information is mimicked in the core rulebook as well.

The first question I encountered was: Are thrown melee weapons (e.g., the Hatchet) ranged weapons? If they are, that would mean that feats that list 'wielding a ranged weapon' apply to thrown weapons (e.g., Point-Blank Shot)

Based on the rules, I believe that thrown melee weapons do not count as ranged weapons. Under Equipment/Weapons, there are two clear sections labeled: Melee Weapons and Ranged Weapons. Javelins are listed as a Range weapon in this context, but a Hatchet is not. A Hatchet is a melee weapon that can be thrown. This seems to be backed up by the description of the Thrown weapon trait which explicitly differentiates melee weapons with the thrown trait and ranged weapons with the thrown trait.

OK -- so if a Hatchet is a melee weapon, then Point-Blank Shot does not apply. Does this mean however that I can throw a hatchet as part of a strike that says I must use a melee weapon? Double Slice says that you must be wielding two melee weapons and it allows you to make a strike with both weapons at the same target. It does not say that you must make melee strikes (e.g., Power Attack). Strike is designed to be ambiguous, stating that you can make melee or ranged attacks as part of a strike. Based on the wording, it would seem that you could throw two Hatchets as part of a double slice attack.

HOWEVER.... if you look at the Barbarian class ability Rage and the level 1 Barbarian feat Raging Thrower things get even messier. Rage says that you deal 2 additional damage with melee weapons (of which the Hatchet is), but Raging Thrower says that your rage bonus applies to thrown weapon attacks (of which, the Hatchet is capable of performing). Having an entire level 1 feat in order to gain your Rage bonus for thrown weapons seems to strongly indicate that thrown weapons (when thrown) are not considered melee weapons.

This leaves us in a weird place in that thrown weapons are not considered melee or ranged when throwing. I am a bit at a loss here... Weapon throwing has always been a favorite area of mine and trying to work out which rules actually apply is quite difficult. Does anyone have any insight?