If you are making a divine source that is not a traditional deity then you have to work that out with your GM. Because you are changing the game world.No you're not.: the game world already allows for divine magic without a deity. A Dm could give you equivalent abilities to a deity for your spells but that would be changing the game world: ie, not RAW.
I fail to see how causing a new source of power at a divine level is not changing the game world.
We have already had the discussion GMs are supposed to interpret and change the game by RAW.
The bottom line is I don't find a overly literal reading of the rules to be amenable here.
So I do what I always do and dig into why and how. I try to get into what the developers are meaning. The rationale they are using for the design.
That leads to some pretty simple and obvious answers.
If you don't like it then fine don't do it. But I find the alternative impossible. I have to understand a complex game like PF2 in order to be able to cope with these sorts of situations. There are a lot of them and the designers are not coming to the party. They are happy for everyone to play it differently.
This is always the way I approach any situation. It is just the way I think. Language is an imperfect means of communication. I need to work out what is meant even if there are slight differences on the margin to what is said. No one expects the designers to speak or write in formal logic.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yes, this is what I'm thinking about your stance: why insist the game requires a deity for divine magic to work? What actually breaks if you play the game as/is?
The deity rules are indeed very inclusive. You can pick anything you want as your deity, even nothing at all. But you have to pick something. And for that something that you pick, you have to be able to answer some questions about its attributes - even if that answer is 'none'.
For example, if I have a divine spellcaster that worships Russel's Teapot, I need to know what its alignment is and what its favored weapon is if I am going to cast Divine Lance.
If I explicitly decide that it has no alignment or favored weapon, then I can't cast Divine Lance.
I could instead decide that it has CN alignment and its favored weapon looks like scalding water. Now I can cast Divine Lance just fine and it will deal chaotic damage.
Either one works. But the decision has to be made. You can't just leave those deity questions unanswered.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So Asmodeus power is providing Cayden's Rapier? That has logic issues all of its own.
I don't see how. ALL Asmodeus does is act like a battery. The actual deity is what focuses your devotion into the effect. Go to Core Rulebook pg. 29 and see what the game says your deity is: it's who you worship.
You are not thinking about the mechanics of why.
You are 100% correct. In fact, I don't really care how much/little sense it makes to you as we're talking about a rules question. I personally don't think Bulk makes a lick of sense but that doesn't change how the mechanic works.
As soon as you go to a Oracle which does not have to have an actual diety as a source or even worship them if they do, then who run into problems.
What issues? Are they ones a Oracle with a deity with a N alignment doesn't have? If not, I'm unimpressed with the issues.
Magic of a divine tradition comes from a source. It is not internal to the caster. It is dependant on a source. Whatever that source is.
It comes from a source? Sure does at some point. Can it be internal? Sure can, that's what a sorcerer is: The 'source' is their blood. NOTHING says that the original origin of the divine magic has the slightest influence on the caster other than cleric/champion as their deity IS their source.
It is perfectly reasonable to say that the source of your power is the "deity" which counts for the purposes of divine effects.
I don't agree even a little unless the caster is actively worshiping the source.
I fail to see how causing a new source of power at a divine level is not changing the game world.
Because you are adding words/text that isn't there. It asks for a deity, not your source. YOU are making the source a deity, not the game: hence there isn't anything to change. At creation the game asks you to pick the deity you worship: it never ever asks you to reference the source of your power for anything. You're just inventing a new rules and then asking why I'm changing it.
Work it out.
Sure... You're wrong by the rules. If you want to play it that way, go for it. You can houserule whatever you want. I personally do not see the logic issues or the "pretty simple and obvious answers" you see but I do see the written words on the page and they aren't matching what you are saying.
So Asmodeus power is providing Cayden's Rapier? That has logic issues all of its own.I don't see how. ALL Asmodeus does is act like a battery. The actual deity is what focuses your devotion into the effect. Go to Core Rulebook pg. 29 and see what the game says your deity is: it's who you worship.
Cayden is the deity that is worships, but the actual power for the spell is tapped from Asmodeus. Cayden is entirely incidental, he doesn't have to be there at all - it makes no difference - the character could have gone in a totally different direction not related to Cayden, the power would still come from Asmodeus, it should be Asmodeus's weapon.
I think you are conflating two concepts just because the rules used the same word to describe them. The deity you worship, and the source of your spells. Normally for clerics they are one and the same. They just don't have to be for Oracles.
Yes I am staring you down on a simple definition in the rule book and saying you have it wrong.
Why, I value common sense, and I accept that words can have multiple meanings.
So we aren't going to agree on this one cool.
But my Oracles will be able to use all their spells and yours won't.
Good luck on getting something out of Paizo on this one.
|
I am having a really hard time following the conversation here but I am getting the feeling that a LOT more Athiest PCs are floating around out there than I had ever expected.
Are that many people (especially those who ACTUALLY use Divine powers) really skipping the select a Deity step? Do people just misunderstand the nature of "worship" in the system and think this decision is supposed to indicate that choosing something means they're a zealot of some kind?
Given the nature of the campaign setting choosing to NOT worship any Deities is, IMO, nihilism at its purest form and suggests that the character has some fundamental and deeply seated problem with religion, faith, and the goings-on of the many Deities... It would end up either being "I hate all the Gods because X" or some kind of flat-earth type mentality and I just don't see that being such a common trope that this would come up nearly as often as the debate here seems to suggest.
That said, again, Oracles might very well be one of the best concepts to start with for such a faithless or faith-lost PCs... similar for a Sorcerer but deciding not to choose a Deity when you know that you cannot use some of your Class Features is... an interesting decision.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
I am having a really hard time following the conversation here but I am getting the feeling that a LOT more Athiest PCs are floating around out there than I had ever expected.
Are that many people (especially those who ACTUALLY use Divine powers) really skipping the select a Deity step? Do people just misunderstand the nature of "worship" in the system and think this decision is supposed to indicate that choosing something means they're a zealot of some kind?
Given the nature of the campaign setting choosing to NOT worship any Deities is, IMO, nihilism at its purest form and suggests that the character has some fundamental and deeply seated problem with religion, faith, and the goings-on of the many Deities... It would end up either being "I hate all the Gods because X" or some kind of flat-earth type mentality and I just don't see that being such a common trope that this would come up nearly as often as the debate here seems to suggest.
That said, again, Oracles might very well be one of the best concepts to start with for such a faithless or faith-lost PCs... similar for a Sorcerer but deciding not to choose a Deity when you know that you cannot use some of your Class Features is... an interesting decision.
Do keep in mind, people disliking this isn't only about wanting to have no deity. If I'm playing a divine sorcerer who DOES choose a patron deity, I still dislike the lore/mechanics disconnect of having the deity I follow determine how my Divine spells work, instead of my bloodline which is the source of those spells.
As for choosing to not have a deity when your class features need one being an interesting choice, that's kind of the entire problem here. It shouldn't need to be any weirder choice for 3/4 of the divine caster classes than it is for every other class.
Cayden is the deity that is worships, but the actual power for the spell is tapped from Asmodeus. Cayden is entirely incidental, he doesn't have to be there at all - it makes no difference - the character could have gone in a totally different direction not related to Cayden, the power would still come from Asmodeus, it should be Asmodeus's weapon.
The only thing Asmodeus influences is the sorcerers focus spells. The only thing the rules care about other than that is which deity you picked in character creation. For the sorcerer, Asmodeus holds no control over them.
I think you are conflating two concepts just because the rules used the same word to describe them. The deity you worship, and the source of your spells. Normally for clerics they are one and the same. They just don't have to be for Oracles.
No I'm not: you are making up a rule about power sources influencing your character when it doesn't say it does. No where does it say this.
Yes I am staring you down on a simple definition in the rule book and saying you have it wrong.
I don't see that you have a leg to stand on: where does it ever mention a sorcerer's bloodline influences your deity choices? What about for an oracle or witch's power? Nothing to be seen.
Why, I value common sense, and I accept that words can have multiple meanings.
I'm not arguing about the word deity: I'm arguing about the power source is never defined as relating in an way to one except for the cleric/champion where it's defines as a deity.
But my Oracles will be able to use all their spells and yours won't.
I have NO idea why you keep going on about this: I have no issues with this. For example, if I played that sorcerer in your example, I'd have no issue using Cayden as my deity. Not having to invent a deity out of a characters power source in no way limits my play as I never found any DM play that way: we've always played that deity actually means the deity you pick at character creation.
Good luck on getting something out of Paizo on this one.
Again, I don't need to. My only problem is N deities shafting their divine worshipers on some spells.
If I'm playing a divine sorcerer who DOES choose a patron deity, I still dislike the lore/mechanics disconnect of having the deity I follow determine how my Divine spells work, instead of my bloodline which is the source of those spells.
IMO, this would be an 'ask you DM' moment: if someone wants to wants to do something non-standard what'd be the way to go. Myself, I'd be irked if someone played a divine sorcerer what worships Nethys but cheesed their way into their divine lance doing Chaotic damage because they claimed Moloch was their power source but my cleric or gnome [with divine innate magic] that worshiped Nethys would be stuck with no damage.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I am having a really hard time following the conversation here but I am getting the feeling that a LOT more Athiest PCs are floating around out there than I had ever expected.
Are that many people (especially those who ACTUALLY use Divine powers) really skipping the select a Deity step? Do people just misunderstand the nature of "worship" in the system and think this decision is supposed to indicate that choosing something means they're a zealot of some kind?
Given the nature of the campaign setting choosing to NOT worship any Deities is, IMO, nihilism at its purest form and suggests that the character has some fundamental and deeply seated problem with religion, faith, and the goings-on of the many Deities
The campaign setting is a standard polytheism. As such, most characters are likely to fall into the common mode of worship in such societies. The gods won't be a significant part of your life, but you will likely petition or invoke them situationally (Iomedae or Gorum before a battle, Desna before a journey, Erastil while farming / gathering, etc.)
Specific devotion will tend to fall under one of a few modes of thought:
- The deity's area of concern resonates strongly with your life. Consider some frontiersman who settles with a handful of families on the edge of the wild. Such a person will naturally gravitate toward Erastil in preference to other deities. He could choose others, of course, but Erastil is just the most probable.
- You owe some debt, be it gratitude, contract, slavery, etc. Seelah, for example, became a paladin of Iomedae out of a desire to atone for causing a paladin's death.
- You were indoctrinated early, and never left.
Atheists don't deny the existence of the deities; they just tend to regard them as powerful Outsiders, rather than being worthy of veneration. It might arise out of a strong belief in free will and self-determination, or out of a rejection of religions (eg, the Laws of Mortality,) or perhaps out of a belief that mortals can become (Razmir) or overthrow (Tar-Baphon) gods with sufficient effort.
...I just don't see that being such a common trope that this would come up nearly as often as the debate here seems to suggest.
That said, again, Oracles might very well be one of the best concepts to start with for such a faithless or faith-lost PCs... similar for a Sorcerer but deciding not to choose a Deity when you know that you cannot use some of your Class Features is... an interesting decision.
So my sorcerer is having trouble deciding whether to worship Shyka, Sarenrae, or Desna - or to not necessarily commit to any of them. But it'd be one of those three if she does, for perfectly good in-campaign reasons.
If she were an angelic sorcerer, she'd be mechanically punished for choosing Shyka, since angelic sorcerers must take all three of the non-cantrips that are hindered by having a true neutral deity: "You can't cast this spell if you don't have a deity or your deity is true neutral."
But my Oracles will be able to use all their spells and yours won't.I have NO idea why you keep going on about this: I have no issues with this. For example, if I played that sorcerer in your example, I'd have no issue using Cayden as my deity. Not having to invent a deity out of a characters power source in no way limits my play as I never found any DM play that way: we've always played that deity actually means...
Mostly when we disagree, it is because we are talking about different things or different aspects of the rule. Its a bit messy because often people assume a post is directed at their reply and often it is just not.
Anyway here I am specifically talking about the extension of this to the situation where the source of divine magic is not a deity. Further to avoid confusion the character has no defined deity that they follow.
I will happily negotiate the divine characteristics of such a source with my GM, and use those details for Alignment (Divine Lance etc), Favoured weapon, and Avatar etc in the spells. But at this point your interpretation gives you nothing beyond the spiritual weapon default.
This was the original posters point.
Anyway here I am specifically talking about the extension of this to the situation where the source of divine magic is not a deity. Further to avoid confusion the character has no defined deity that they follow.
Ok.
I will happily negotiate the divine characteristics of such a source with my GM, and use those details for Alignment (Divine Lance etc), Favoured weapon, and Avatar etc in the spells. But at this point your interpretation gives you nothing beyond the spiritual weapon default.
I would have no problem with you doing so, both from an outsiders point of view or as a player of your game. That said, I'd still disagree if you said it was meant to be that way by the RAW rules.
This was the original posters point.
Not entirely: One of the questions was "What if you are a sorcerer and your religion is completely divested from your power source?" So when you asked about an Oracle that was powered by Asmodeus and worshiped Cayden Cailean, I figured that you where referring to that part of the OP's point.
I will happily negotiate the divine characteristics of such a source with my GM, and use those details for Alignment (Divine Lance etc), Favoured weapon, and Avatar etc in the spells. But at this point your interpretation gives you nothing beyond the spiritual weapon default.I would have no problem with you doing so, both from an outsiders point of view or as a player of your game. That said, I'd still disagree if you said it was meant to be that way by the RAW rules.
We do disagrree on this. I think it is actually RAW.
I think it is actually RAW.
From my point of view, it seems more how you think it should be from a lore/logic viewpoint than explicit RAW text you can point to. I just don't see anything in the rules equating power source to official deity choice at character creation. You seem to be saying 'well OF COURSE Asmodeus should be your deity if that's who gave your bloodline magic! it's obvious!' but I can't find anything under deities, divine magic or magic in general that says source is the same as your deity other than cleric/champion.
I think it is actually RAW.From my point of view, it seems more how you think it should be from a lore/logic viewpoint than explicit RAW text you can point to. I just don't see anything in the rules equating power source to official deity choice at character creation. You seem to be saying 'well OF COURSE Asmodeus should be your deity if that's who gave your bloodline magic! it's obvious!' but I can't find anything under deities, divine magic or magic in general that says source is the same as your deity other than cleric/champion.
I simply think it is two concepts that are conflated into one in the CRB as at the time it was written they are the same - there was no Oracle. The CRB does not need to distiguish between the deity that you worship and the deity that provides your divine magic. But they can be different.
The introduction to Oracle says
Your conduit to divine power eschews the traditional channels of prayer and servitude—you instead glean divine truths that extend beyond any single deity. You understand the great mysteries of the universe embodied in overarching concepts that transcend good and evil or chaos and law, whether because you perceive the common ground across multiple deities or circumvent their power entirely.
"Divine" is literally the adjective that means pertaining to a "Deity". There is no gap between these terms.
Whatever the source of the Oracles power, it is divine power, it is a deity of sorts. Even if it is a group of deities, or a concept, or an artifact, or unwillingly providing that power. The power is divine.
To me there is enough here to explicitly get around the CRB definition of deity as being that enitity that you worship. Your source of Oracle power is your deity for all purposes of your Oracle power.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
So we've gone from "you have to tie yourself to a deity even if you're not a cleric and have no deity related features" to "a deity can be anything, even something that's not a deity at all"
Not even sure what the argument is at this point.
I simply think it is two concepts that are conflated into one in the CRB as at the time it was written they are the same - there was no Oracle. The CRB does not need to distiguish between the deity that you worship and the deity that provides your divine magic. But they can be different.
I think it's you that is conflating them because they where the same thing with the cleric and champion. It really has nothing to do with the CRB though, as the divine sorcerer is in the CRB and it says NOTHING about it's bloodline being it's deity. If what you think was true, gods and magic would have been the perfect place for them to clear that up.
"Divine" is literally the adjective that means pertaining to a "Deity". There is no gap between these terms.
'That cheesecake is divine' isn't talking about a cheesecake that is supernatural being of amazing power to grant miracles. Jokes aside, are we really placing that much emphasis on the tradition name? Try explaining the difference between arcane and occult using the common use of the adjective...
Whatever the source of the Oracles power, it is divine power, it is a deity of sorts.
The CRB defines your deity as the one you worship so unless your oracle is worshiping whatever powers it, you can't even begin to think of it as the oracles deity. Gamemastery and gods and magic do not change things from the CRB either.
Even if it is a group of deities, or a concept, or an artifact, or unwillingly providing that power. The power is divine.
Only if it receives worship can it be a deity and only if the individual powered is the one worshiping it does it count as their deity. There isn't any deity by proxy clause, so there has to be a direct link from worship to deity.
To me there is enough here to explicitly get around the CRB definition of deity as being that enitity that you worship.
I'd like to see some quotes because I struggle to see anything implicit let alone explicit.
So we've gone from "you have to tie yourself to a deity even if you're not a cleric and have no deity related features" to "a deity can be anything, even something that's not a deity at all"
Not even sure what the argument is at this point.
It hasn't changed even though if come about it from different angles. Your deity for divine magic is the divine source.
If you go with a non standard divine source then you have to define it. If you do then you don't have any problems working out all the spells that have quirks depending on their deity.
the divine sorcerer is in the CRB
OK
So what sort of alignment damage would a cleric dedicated to the Sovereign Host (which contains gods that are LG, NG, CG, LN, and N) deal? What if the cleric is Lawful Evil (which is totally valid in Eberron)
Well the 2 solutions are:
1) Graystone solution. Which is whatever the deity you actually worship, even if it is not the source of your divine magic, that is what determines what you get. If you don't worship any deity you get largely nothing.
2) My solution. Which is define the characteristics of your "pseudo deity" from where your powers are sourced and use that. Which means in this case of worshipping a pantheon, negotiating with your GM and making a selection of effects normally available from those deities in the pantheon. Fairly simply picking an alignment, favoured weapon, anathema, avatar form... as seems appropriate to your divine source. You can choose to worship that divine source, another deity, or nothing at all - it doesn't matter.
He is calling me out for ignoring a black and white definition of your deity - defined as the deity you worship. I'm saying he is illogical for ignoring the definition of a divine source in the Orcale class - it is a deity. It explicitly disconnects divine power from worship.
What is relevant to your spells: the deity that is the source of the spell or the deity you might happen to worship?
Neutrality does indeed get shafted.......but when you make a neutral character/ worship a neutral god you are actively choosing not to be a combatant in the grand cosmic struggle of ideology. You're going to simply exist and not declare war on any one side. Therefore, you don't get certain situational combat boons
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Being neutral yourself also makes you immune to alignment damage, so there's a perk to it. But of course you could be true neutral and worship a deity with a different alignment.
Golarion has its own pantheons and those pantheons have specific alignments.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
On a side note, this is why I wish Paizo ditched the heavy handed alignment mechanics for 2E. This whole debate wouldn’t need to exist as alignment damage wouldn’t be a thing. It also makes running settings like Eberron far more easier.
In the Eberron setting, it seems pretty clear that divine magic is primarily powered by faith, not deities
I don't seem that type of divine magic as divine origin. It is something else and a totally different mechanism. It is a very modern concept that is popular in a number of fantasy settings, but it warrants its own rules and a separate name.
The explanation of divine magic in Gods and Magic is here
I'm not sure it helps. It is very much faith based - you have to worship your deity to get power from it. But also clearly talking about Clerics and Champions. Not Oracles. It acknowledges there are non deity sources, but apart from pantheons (choose but watch for anathemas), it gives no guidance. In fact it seems they deliberately dodge the issue and leave it to GMs.
Divine Sorcerers are a conduit for divine magic. Oracles wields divine power via their mystery. Clerics and Champions pray to and beseech their deity for divine magic.
The Oracle class clearly does not require worship. You can even be stealing your power unwilling from a deity.
IMHO the deity that you worship is not relevant to the Oracle divine spells. Certainly the mechanism described is only about faithful followers, which is just not required for Sorcerers and Oracles.
The source deity/patheon/other divine source, might be relevant.
But it is also very reasonable that you just get no deity characteristics in your divine spells.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
But it is also very reasonable that you just get no deity characteristics in your divine spells.
I think it's something of a mechanical issue for the angelic, demonic, and diabolic sorcerers. Neutral-deity clerics, oracles, witches, and even undead and psychopomp sorcerers have the luxury of avoiding the spells if RAW doesn't allow them to function.
Angelic etc don't have that luxury, because they're bloodline spells.
As an update suggestion / house rule, I'd add a note to the bloodlines in order to avoid cluttering the spell:
"The spells marked with * normally require you to choose an alignment your deity has. If you are not true neutral, you may choose an alignment you have instead of one your deity has; the spells are otherwise unchanged."
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, there are several ways of house ruling this problem into oblivion. Most of them are fairly trivial.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Definitely. Fixing this with simple houserules of minor impact is easy.
It would be pretty nice if it was also fixed with official rules, at least for the Org Play crowd.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hmm... looking at it, I'd say the problem is that Paizo conflates a divinely powered character's professed deity with that character's patron or source. This, alas, doesn't actually match up with various rules and flavour texts, leaving room for confusion over what counts as "your deity".
-----
1: All divine casters are assumed to worship a deity. This is not strictly required, nor is the Deity field strictly required to be filled in. (Unless you are a Cleric or Champion, in which case you must indeed worship a deity, and write their name in the field.)
Write down the deity your character worships, if any. Champions and clerics must worship a deity. See pages 437–440 for more about Pathfinder’s deities.
Going by this (and the "if any" in particular), you are only required to write something in the Deity field if your character worships a deity. The traditional priests and crusaders are required to worship a deity, but other divine casters are not. (While Oracles and Witches were introduced in a later book, note that the divine Sorcerer is available in the CRB. Thus, we can infer that the restriction on "champions and clerics" either is not to be extended to all divinely powered characters, or is an omission that places reasonable doubt on the entire implementation.)
Also compare to the wording of, e.g., divine lance, which specifies that it cannot be cast if the caster doesn't have a deity.
Choose an alignment your deity has (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful). You can't cast this spell if you don't have a deity or if your deity is true neutral.
--
2: Divine magic is supplied by a source, and draws on the energies provided by said source. This is stated and evidenced in the CRB (divine Sorcerers again; they get their powers from their bloodline, not their deity). It is reinforced by Witches, and especially by Oracles, neither of which is required to gain divine power from a deity.
More specifically, non-Champion/Cleric divine casters will typically state in their flavour text that their powers can come from a deity or similar, but are not required to do so. This casts reasonable doubt, but the matter is then cinched by the Oracle. The Oracle's flavour text explicitly states that their divine power works differently than the norm, from their curiosity about the mysteries of the universe rather than from a deity; to this end, their mystery is referred to as a "divine mystery" twice in the class text. More tellingly, their Mystery feature states that the Mystery, and not a deity, is the source of their power; as this is the description of a game mechanic, we have explicit mechanical proof that their source is not considered a deity by game rules. (And, perhaps, also proof that this is unusual for divine magic, although this would conflict with other classes' flavour texts.)
This is the oracle's mystery, a source of divine magic not beholden to any deity.
Your mystery provides you with divine magical power. You can cast spells using the Cast a Spell activity, and you can supply material, somatic, and verbal components when casting spells. Your unconventional access to this divine power means you can usually replace material components with somatic components, so you don't need to use a material component pouch when casting spells.
Advanced Player's Guide, pg.66.
A divine source can supply power even if not worshipped as a deity. Compare the Blessed One archetype, which draws on the standard PF1 Oracle's "empowered by the gods because they said so" shtick; a Blessed One isn't required to worship the source deity, or even show them any respect whatsoever.
This blessing manifests as the ability to heal wounds and remove harmful conditions, and exists independent of worship. You might offer thanks daily to the deity whose power you wield, or you might carry these blessings reluctantly, seeking to avoid responsibility or even acting to defy the deity's influence on you. You might wear the robes of the deity's order, or you might give little thought and even less reverence to the source of your powers.
Advanced Player's Guide, pg.162
And finally, we know that divine sources are a distinctly recognised... existence, for lack of a better term. The term "divine source" is used in the spell miracle (and seemingly nowhere else, unless we count the later-released Oracle's "source of divine magic"), showing that there is precedent for recognising that the source of a divine caster's power might not be their deity (if any). It's especially interesting, in that miracle's text contains zero uses of the term "deity".
You request aid directly from your divine source. Your divine source always refuses a request out of line with its nature, and it might grant a different request (potentially more powerful or better fitting its nature) than the one you asked for.
--
3: The rules do not reflect this disconnect. Many divine spells and features seem to assume that a character's source is a deity, even if it is not. Even official game text assumes this, although it appears to be a standard case of Paizo's good ol' "left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing" lack-of-internal-communication issue.
For a faithful character, divine magic is usually the most intrinsically appealing, as it reflects a direct connection to a deity.
While GaM was released before the APG, the APG Playtest Oracle also contains the above-quoted line that their magic isn't beholden to any deities. Specifically, of the two APG quotes above, the first is directly stated in the playtest document; the second is also present, but without the implication that Oracles are unusual for not needing a deity to get their divine magic. Considering that the playtest document came out before GaM, this suggests either miscommunication between writers, or a lack of in-house clarity on how strongly divine magic is connected to deities.
-----
With those three considerations in mind, we can conclude that there are two issues with the system:
1) Spells and effects rely on the character's deity and not their divine source, but this is never explicitly clarified. Effects are shaped by faith, regardless of what fuels them. To use the example given by Gortle in this thread, an Oracle powered by Asmodeus and who worships Cayden would be able to call upon a spiritual weapon thanks to their grandma having a hell of a boyfriend, but (contrary to Gortle's claims) would shape it into a rapier because of their faith in Cayden. This is a somewhat common concept in fiction, and easily fits here, but it's unlikely that the writers realised how well it fits with the rules as written.
[Note, however, that if the Oracle, e.g., cast spiritual weapon during a crisis of faith, and got Asmodeus' mace instead, it would make for a great story hook.]
2) The system expects a divine caster to worship their source, compounding the above. Many effects are written under the assumption that they reflect a divine caster's divine power source, yet require the caster to have a deity (and require the caster to have a deity for the effect to function). This, amusingly enough, creates the logical disconnect that a deity cannot cast divine lance without worshipping another deity; while a deity is by definition their own source of divine casting, any deity casting divine lance would still be dependent on the alignment of their own deity. Also consider crisis of faith, which can disrupt the target's ability to cast divine spells by making them question their faith in their deity; while this is very logical from a story perspetive, it makes no sense from a gameplay perspective unless the target's divine casting is assumed to come from their deity.
----------
With this in mind, we can say that yes, the rules for certain divine spells fail to work as intended if the caster receives their divine power from a source other than their deity. In this case, I would say that it is strange, but should probably be understood as the character using their faith in their deity to shape the power into a form of worship and veneration of their deity. (Going back to the example of a divine caster powered by Asmodeus who worships Cayden, and whose spiritual weapon is Cayden's rapier, they would logically be taking Asmodeus' power and shaping it into something entirely disconnected, worshipping their deity Cayden by repurposing other divine powers in his name. Alcohol is probably involved.)
This logic is explicitly required for the Oracle. Their source is explicitly not a deity, yet their ability to cast divine spells gives them access to, e.g., divine lance, which in turn means that they are considered by the rules to have "a deity" for the purposes of said spell. As this deity is not their source, it must by elimination be the deity listed in their "Deity" box, if any. (Note that this also solves the conundrum of PF1's "powered by 1+ deities without any say in the matter" Oracles; their deity, in PF2 terms, would be the one they choose to worship and not the one(s) that empower them.)
Thus, the answer to this question must be that any effects which depend upon "your deity" must be determined by the deity that the character chooses to profess as their god, even if they gain access to the effects in question from a different deity; the two defined exceptions to this are the standard "church" classes, Champion and Cleric, whose source explicitly is the god they profess.
That a good analysis.
It misses that "divine" is merely the adjective of "deity" and thus separates a lot of rules that don't need to be separated.
In most contexts stating a "divine source" not a "deity" is an oxymoron. They are synonyms.
So I still disagree with you as to the RAWness of it all. But you have covered the points.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Stating a "divine source" not a "deity" is an oxymoron. They are synonyms.
I mean, I know you've said this a lot but that's clearly not consistent with Golarion as a setting. Similar to how "Occult" and "Arcane" are synonyms but have different meanings in game.
Thanks. ;3 Thinking about it some more, it makes sense if we assume the distinction comes from how directly the various divine casters get their divine casting.
• The Champion and Cleric get it straight from the source.
• The Sorcerer mooches off of Grandpa Asmodeus. He pays the bills, but do they give him any credit for it, or even say "thank you" once in a while? Young'ins today...
• The Witch gets it from the concept of faith itself. They might not know what they have faith in, or might be preying on someone else's faith, but they latch onto faith and drain the power out of it.
• The Oracle is... vague. They tried to figure out how the universe works, and stumbled on the hand of God holding everything together underneath what we can see.
All of them probably do get their casting from a deity if you trace it back far enough, but most of them have one or more stops along the way; the "church" casters are the only ones that go straight to the source.
It's kinda like retail, really. Some people buy products directly from the company, while others will go to the store and get them off the shelves. The company still makes the products for both groups, but only one group gets it straight from them.
• The Witch gets it from the concept of faith itself. They might not know what they have faith in, or might be preying on someone else's faith, but they latch onto faith and drain the power out of it.
Thank you for bringing up the Divine Witch, but I'm not sure it easily fits
You command powerful magic, not through study or devotion to any ideal, but as a vessel or agent for a mysterious, otherworldly patron that even you don't entirely understand. This entity might be a covert divinity, a powerful fey, a manifestation of natural energies, an ancient spirit, or any other mighty supernatural being—but its nature is likely as much a mystery to you as it is to anyone else. Through a special familiar, your patron grants you versatile spells and powerful hexes to use as you see fitA witch's patron is a mysterious entity, rarely known or understood even by the witch in that patron's service. The nature of the relationship between a witch and their patron can serve as details for character development and storytelling. When playing a witch, work with your GM to determine the nature of your patron and how much of that nature you know, both as a player and a character.
Every witch is different, and no story is wrong
Worship or faith are just possibilties. Again clearly not required for the divine witch. They are in the same bucket as the divine sorcerer and oracle
Hmm... that's a fair point, yeah. I was trying to fit the sub-chassis lore in, since there's only one divine caster Witch so far, but I didn't consider the possibility of future ones.
Maybe their patron is the one that acquires divine power for them, and lets the Witch use it in exchange for whatever the patron gets out of the deal? They're admittedly one of the harder ones to place.
One more thing to add to this thread.
Tieflings probably need to be considered. They are explicitly allowed to be disconnected from their ancestral Fiendish origins. The disconnect I have been talking about between a follower of a deity and a divine source is even more explicit here.
The feat Final Form
Your final form has the effects of divine vessel for a deity that shares an alignment with your fiendish lineage.
Including deity specific affects: additional damage of the chosen alignment type
That are not related to the Tieflings deity or alignment.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yes. The point is simply that it is a divine magic dependent effect, that is not related to the deity worshipped by the character. But rather from the another deity source in this case a connection through ancestry.
Its all very explicit in this case. So no one should have any problem with it at all.
My implication of course, is that it is relevant to the wider discussion which was open, about the alternative divine sources of magic. Maybe the deity that your power comes from might be relevant to your spell effects rather than the deity that you worship.
For me its very obvious, because I'm thinking about how the magic might work. But many prioritise aspects of the language of the rules in their understanding and disagree.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The issue is your method for 'how the magic might work' doesn't actually come up with any mechanical answers to the questions being posed. There is a source for divine magic, even if they're not all deities. But that doesn't actually answer what happens when a oracle or, divine sorcerer/witch casts the deity reliant spells' mechanics.
What alignment does 'unknown divine source' fall under?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The issue is your method for 'how the magic might work' doesn't actually come up with any mechanical answers to the questions being posed. There is a source for divine magic, even if they're not all deities. But that doesn't actually answer what happens when a oracle or, divine sorcerer/witch casts the deity reliant spells' mechanics.
What alignment does 'unknown divine source' fall under?
The divine source is not unknown. You or perhaps the GM chooses and it is defined. Even if your character doesn't know what it is. Thats the whole point, you define the source of your power. Then you determine what characteristics it has. Including how it effects certain spell mechanics. The rationale can be almost anything, but some sort of deity is typically involved.
Its perfectly reasonable and balanced. It answers all questions.
You could for example say your divine sorcere gets its power from a sacred spoon artifact.
Your spiritual weapon is chosen to be a large spoon.
The alignment of the spoon might be evil and lawful and it might like to smack people who break rules.
Hence your magic gets these charateristics as appropriate to the spells. It doesn't matter that you are a NG character who actually worships another god.
Done. Game over. Very simple.
Very silly in this case, but that might be your character and game
.
Or you could just choose one of the standard options and work out why you have their power rather than the god you follow.
Chiming in a bit late but on the subject of Neutral deities:
Nethys is, IMHO, amazing for a cloistered cleric, gets 9 occult and arcane spells added to repertoire, both harm and heal fonts. The staff is one of the best weapons to be upgraded by 1 dice of damage (two hand d10). sure you can't divine lance properly just just be a human and nab electric arc. Plus i'm pretty sure: ''pursue mundane paths over magical ones'' is ripe for abuse with anathemic reprisal. You could dump that every round on someone ''ugh... you used a stride action instead of dimension door? ANATHEMIC REPRISAL''
Pharasma sucks though... just nothing good out of her...
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Pursuing mundane paths over magical ones doesn't mean that you can't Stride, otherwise noone would stay a Cleric of Nethys for long. Just that your goals in life must be magical ones. And that's harder to reprise during a combat...
Pursuing mundane paths over magical ones doesn't mean that you can't Stride, otherwise noone would stay a Cleric of Nethys for long. Just that your goals in life must be magical ones. And that's harder to reprise during a combat...
I know, but being ill defined means you can make a semi valid case often, which increases your chances of placing it.
Not as cool as a cleric of urgathoa using animate dead to trigger anthemic reprisal though...
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
In my home games If you want to use Divine Lance and aren't a cleric I tend to let it be your alignment. That is both hold over from when I missed the point about it being your ditties alignment, and for some reason read it your alignment or some sort of combination of the two.
In the specific case of Sorcerers, I view the source of their magic as themselves. You might have inherited a divine spark from your grandma or grandpa but what you do with it is up to you and it is initially connected do your own body and soul. So I tend to have it be the players alignment.
That being said I can also appreciate the flavor of I have inherited these *dark powers* and I must resist using them or find someway to use them for good. So if a player wanted to let's say play a lawful good sorcerer with the demon bloodlines wanted divine lance to do chaos and evil damage I would let him.
Oracles I guess are in a similar boat but their magic is even more vague and so far the themes of their powers are not tied to the alignment system in any strong way. So I would put them in a similar boat to sorcerers.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
You know, given how vaguely defined the deity is for these spells and the fact that oracles can explicitly draw power from multiple deities, you can make a case oracles should be able to Divine Lance from any alignment.
I've long maintained this would be an awesome feature for them, but I'm realizing it might be legit now.