Any solution for non-cleric divine casters?


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I would pick a god or demon lord who infused you and go with that alignment. You don't worship the god if you don't want to, but that's who you draw power from and why your spells do what they do.

Then you get to have fun knowing you channel the power of an evil god or demon lord, while trying to avoid that power tainting you.


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Gortle wrote:

The divine source is not unknown. You or perhaps the GM chooses and it is defined. Even if your character doesn't know what it is. Thats the whole point, you define the source of your power. Then you determine what characteristics it has. Including how it effects certain spell mechanics. The rationale can be almost anything, but some sort of deity is typically involved.

Its perfectly reasonable and balanced. It answers all questions.

The divine source is unknown though. The books don't describe a precise origin for them, and the mystery and ambiguity of them is specifically put forward in the book.

If what you are saying was true, then all of the divine capable classes would have a deity section that just says 'still pick a deity, your character just might not worship or follow them'.

Liberty's Edge

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I still don't see where any of the questions on this come from at all... Deity selection is just flat out not an optional step in Character Creation despite it having very few actual impacts on the vast majority of PCs. Skipping over this is just like skipping over Alignment, Ancestry, or anything else, if you don't fill this out your Character is incomplete.

If you are playing a Fighter and intentionally choose Atheist as your Deity (or default to this because you don't care enough to add a Deity) and you pick up some way to learn Divine Lance without a Deity then you'd need to change your Deity or you just wasted your time, effort, and resources. The same thing goes for Oracles and whoever else, literally all of that mumbo jumbo about multiple Divine sources or unknown ones actually has zero mechanical impact on the game, it's flavor and lore only, it doesn't make an ounce of difference as far as this goes. The Fighter/Oracle/Witch/whatever is going to have to pick some Deity and write that on the Character sheet, even if that's not the Deity that you WANT your power/bloodline/mystery to come from, that's what Divine Lance and a handful of other effects is targeting, that little box on your sheet that says "Deity" no more, no less.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I mean I don't think anyone is missing the rules, they're as clear as can be. It's more a complaint that some people find the rule bad and incongruous with the lore and themes of certain classes.


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The way I see it, if a Sorcerer with a Diabolic Bloodline chooses to worship Sarenrae, then their faith in the Dawnflower allows them to take the divine spark in their bloodline and morph it to be more in line with their values. Hence, their Divine Lance would be good rather than evil, because their devotion to goodness is that strong.

That's just how I see it, though.


Themetricsystem wrote:

I still don't see where any of the questions on this come from at all... Deity selection is just flat out not an optional step in Character Creation despite it having very few actual impacts on the vast majority of PCs. Skipping over this is just like skipping over Alignment, Ancestry, or anything else, if you don't fill this out your Character is incomplete.

If you are playing a Fighter and intentionally choose Atheist as your Deity (or default to this because you don't care enough to add a Deity) and you pick up some way to learn Divine Lance without a Deity then you'd need to change your Deity or you just wasted your time, effort, and resources. The same thing goes for Oracles and whoever else, literally all of that mumbo jumbo about multiple Divine sources or unknown ones actually has zero mechanical impact on the game, it's flavor and lore only, it doesn't make an ounce of difference as far as this goes. The Fighter/Oracle/Witch/whatever is going to have to pick some Deity and write that on the Character sheet, even if that's not the Deity that you WANT your power/bloodline/mystery to come from, that's what Divine Lance and a handful of other effects is targeting, that little box on your sheet that says "Deity" no more, no less.

This is a very black and white prescriptive way of reading the rules.

Its all well and good. But that is just not how the rules are written or supposed to be read. It is mostly natural English language. Only a portion is actually tagged and locked in with traits.

You are missing the implicit assumptions in the rules about deities and divine magic. Hence you are just not understanding the principles or the edge cases. You can see it because it is explicit in the Final Form - Divine Vessel.

I'm sorry but I can't turn off my attempts to understand the mechanism and the logic of the game. In difficult cases, if there is insufficient information we sometimes just have to go with the literal reading. But that is not the case here.

I'd much rather accept that the game rule for your deity is simplistic, and only mostly right - than accept that the divine magic which I source from one deity has the properties of another deity.


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My take on this is Divine casters like Oracles and Sorcerers can channel divine power, but there remain some things that are only granted by gods. So you get most of it, but not all of it.

Personally I don't see this as a problem.


Guntermench wrote:

My take on this is Divine casters like Oracles and Sorcerers can channel divine power, but there remain some things that are only granted by gods. So you get most of it, but not all of it.

Personally I don't see this as a problem.

Mostly this.

Talking about spells, how many of them among the whole divine tradition require a deity?


I think there are ten for sure, and a couple of others that I'm not sure how they'd work without a deity but don't actually require one.

Anathematic Reprisal, Avatar, Divine (Aura, Decree, Lance, Vessel, Wrath), Righteous Might, Spiritual Guardian, Weapon of Judgement.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Guntermench wrote:

I think there are ten for sure, and a couple of others that I'm not sure how they'd work without a deity but don't actually require one.

Anathematic Reprisal, Avatar, Divine (Aura, Decree, Lance, Vessel, Wrath), Righteous Might, Spiritual Guardian, Weapon of Judgement.

Which doesn't sound like a lot, but that's a significant portion of the divine spell list's offense.


They don't really make sense if you don't have a deity though.


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Gortle wrote:
I'm not going to argue for atheistic divine casters as the concept is just stupid.

Oh, pish and tosh!!

Just because a caster doesn't believe in the gods doesn't the gods don't believe in him/her!


Pixel Popper wrote:
Gortle wrote:
I'm not going to argue for atheistic divine casters as the concept is just stupid.

Oh, pish and tosh!!

Just because a caster doesn't believe in the gods doesn't the gods don't believe in him/her!

Divine Tradition wrote:
The power of the divine is steeped in faith, the unseen, and belief in a power source from beyond the Material Plane.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Guntermench wrote:
They don't really make sense if you don't have a deity though.

Sure. Though in the case of the oracle, it would also make sense for them to use multiple dieties for this.


Some Oracles, but not all of them.


Guntermench wrote:

I think there are ten for sure, and a couple of others that I'm not sure how they'd work without a deity but don't actually require one.

Anathematic Reprisal, Avatar, Divine (Aura, Decree, Lance, Vessel, Wrath), Righteous Might, Spiritual Guardian, Weapon of Judgement.

It is unfortunate true neutral deities are practically treated as having no deity for the spells.

It’s most visible in Divine Aura which has a perfectly generic but lesser effect not tied to an alignment. But for some reason, it still bars casters with true neutral deities from casting it.

For the spells that work completely off of an alignment, which is most of them, I get it. It was neat for Divine Aura to seemingly have a minor effect for true neutral casters until I read further and it wasn’t the case.


A neutral deity allows different spells among those.

Neutral alignment provides also immunity to EVIL/GOOD damage, if you are a true neutral you exploit the whole system, being also immune to LAWFUL and CHAOTIC damage.

It's enough I say, though I admit I am sick of the alignment stuff not affecting neutral characters. They should get damage by everything, but taking for example half damage.

So a True neutral might be harmed by anything but just for 1/2 of its damage, while a chaotic neutral would take full Lawful damage and half good/evil damage.


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Themetricsystem wrote:

I still don't see where any of the questions on this come from at all... Deity selection is just flat out not an optional step in Character Creation despite it having very few actual impacts on the vast majority of PCs. Skipping over this is just like skipping over Alignment, Ancestry, or anything else, if you don't fill this out your Character is incomplete.

If you are playing a Fighter and intentionally choose Atheist as your Deity (or default to this because you don't care enough to add a Deity) and you pick up some way to learn Divine Lance without a Deity then you'd need to change your Deity or you just wasted your time, effort, and resources. The same thing goes for Oracles and whoever else, literally all of that mumbo jumbo about multiple Divine sources or unknown ones actually has zero mechanical impact on the game, it's flavor and lore only, it doesn't make an ounce of difference as far as this goes. The Fighter/Oracle/Witch/whatever is going to have to pick some Deity and write that on the Character sheet, even if that's not the Deity that you WANT your power/bloodline/mystery to come from, that's what Divine Lance and a handful of other effects is targeting, that little box on your sheet that says "Deity" no more, no less.

Nope. The rules actually only put that forward for Cleric and Paladin. Divine Lance is also not a good example spell for this topic because it actually says how it interacts with divine casters who lack a deity. The issue is the spells that don't specify that.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
HumbleGamer wrote:

A neutral deity allows different spells among those.

Neutral alignment provides also immunity to EVIL/GOOD damage, if you are a true neutral you exploit the whole system, being also immune to LAWFUL and CHAOTIC damage.

It's enough I say, though I admit I am sick of the alignment stuff not affecting neutral characters. They should get damage by everything, but taking for example half damage.

So a True neutral might be harmed by anything but just for 1/2 of its damage, while a chaotic neutral would take full Lawful damage and half good/evil damage.

I agree with your house rule there. That's already how a few spells basically work. And it means you'll technically be half as vulnerable to twice as many things, though in practice you're more likely to get hit with evil damage than good damage. It would also solve the divine lance detect alignment issue.

The issue with neutral alignment protecting you is that is based on the alignment of the character, not the god. So technically the safest route is pick an aligned deity but take the most neutral character alignment said deity allows for. A LN character of a LG character gets the best of both worlds.

Of course there are a few beneficial things which require the character themselves to be good, such as some champion feats, but those are specific things you have to build into.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Guntermench wrote:
They don't really make sense if you don't have a deity though.

Disagree. Especially when a majority of the game's divine spellcasters specificallly exist outside the deity-worshipper framework.

It's a symptom of the broader issues of PF2's magic design in some respects though.


Captain Morgan wrote:
The issue with neutral alignment protecting you is that is based on the alignment of the character, not the god. So technically the safest route is pick an aligned deity but take the most neutral character alignment said deity allows for. A LN character of a LG character gets the best of both worlds.

Yeah, I’m not sure if there’s any advantage in picking a true neutral deity if the character alignment is what interacts with incoming alignment effects.

Maybe there will be future feats that will have true neutral deities as prerequisites, just like how some feats require you to have no deity or be following a specific philosophy.


Pixel Popper wrote:
Gortle wrote:
I'm not going to argue for atheistic divine casters as the concept is just stupid.

Oh, pish and tosh!!

Just because a caster doesn't believe in the gods doesn't the gods don't believe in him/her!

"Believe in the me who believes in you."

"No, don't wanna."

Silver Crusade

Squiggit wrote:
Guntermench wrote:
They don't really make sense if you don't have a deity though.

Disagree. Especially when a majority of the game's divine spellcasters specificallly exist outside the deity-worshipper framework.

It's a symptom of the broader issues of PF2's magic design in some respects though.

I wouldn't consider the Oracle and just a couple of Sorcerers and Witches the "majority" of Divine Spellcasters. Champions and Clerics require deities.

Even if you do count Witches and Sorcerers as whole that's still only 3-2, not a majority in the sense I'd use.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Champions don't use the divine spell LIST. If you're talking about users of the spell list, it's 3-1.

Silver Crusade

I would say that's sliding the goalposts by hyperfocusing but the original post that Guntermench was responding to did say spell lists, though my point still stands since Champions have to worship deities and can cast Divine spells and abilities.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Rysky wrote:

I wouldn't consider the Oracle and just a couple of Sorcerers and Witches the "majority" of Divine Spellcasters. Champions and Clerics require deities.

Even if you do count Witches and Sorcerers as whole that's still only 3-2, not a majority in the sense I'd use.

The topic is about spells like Divine Wrath. Champions, who never gain access to those spells innately, don't really strike me as relevant to the topic.

If you are going to include Champions, then you ought to include Monks too (who don't care about deities and that'd make it 4-2).

My comments were in the context of the discussion about those spells though. Four classes access the divine spell list, but only one of them operates explicitly in the worshipper-patron deity dynamic... which sort of makes everyone who isn't a Cleric feel like an afterthought and I think that's a bit of a shame.


The Divine tradition reads to me like you either get the ability to channel that power for whatever reason (faith, blood, cosmic something or other) but you aren't the source of the power. You're a conduit, not a generator.

Your alignment being irrelevant in this case makes sense (to me) so what would be the alternative? Just let neutral and unattached Divine casters just pick literally anything?

Silver Crusade

Squiggit wrote:
The topic is about spells like Divine Wrath. Champions, who never gain access to those spells innately, don't really strike me as relevant to the topic.
You opened the door with "the majority of Divine Spellcasters don't require a Deity", and thus this tangent.
Squiggit wrote:
which sort of makes everyone who isn't a Cleric feel like an afterthought and I think that's a bit of a shame.

Back on topic, Oracle alone is enough to acknowledge this is something to be more aware of when making Divine spells with requirements and such.

(As an aside, as more goes on I feel like the Pick-a-List style was a mistake)

Liberty's Edge

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I've never seen the disconnect for non-worshipping divine casters, but I think that's because I don't see "the deity you worship" as the source of a divine spell - divine magic, as noted above several times, doesn't necessarily even come from a deity - I see it as one of the targets. It's no different than a spell that, say, allowed you to turn your tail attack into a +1 striking tail attack. The spell does what it does, but if you don't happen to have a tail attack, it isn't going to work for you. Not because of the spell itself, because there's a [NULL FIELD] where the spell needs an actual variable.


Guntermench wrote:
Pixel Popper wrote:
Gortle wrote:
I'm not going to argue for atheistic divine casters as the concept is just stupid.

Oh, pish and tosh!!

Just because a caster doesn't believe in the gods doesn't the gods don't believe in him/her!

Divine Tradition wrote:
The power of the divine is steeped in faith, the unseen, and belief in a power source from beyond the Material Plane.

Guess I should have provided a tag to indicate tongue-in-cheek . . .


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, PF Special Edition Subscriber
Rysky wrote:
Even if you do count Witches and Sorcerers as whole that's still only 3-2, not a majority in the sense I'd use.

You left out Monks, who like Sorcerers and Witches can choose to be divine, and like Champions are focus spell only, which brings it to 4-2.


Themetricsystem wrote:

I still don't see where any of the questions on this come from at all... Deity selection is just flat out not an optional step in Character Creation despite it having very few actual impacts on the vast majority of PCs. Skipping over this is just like skipping over Alignment, Ancestry, or anything else, if you don't fill this out your Character is incomplete.

If you are playing a Fighter and intentionally choose Atheist as your Deity (or default to this because you don't care enough to add a Deity) and you pick up some way to learn Divine Lance without a Deity then you'd need to change your Deity or you just wasted your time, effort, and resources. The same thing goes for Oracles and whoever else, literally all of that mumbo jumbo about multiple Divine sources or unknown ones actually has zero mechanical impact on the game, it's flavor and lore only, it doesn't make an ounce of difference as far as this goes. The Fighter/Oracle/Witch/whatever is going to have to pick some Deity and write that on the Character sheet, even if that's not the Deity that you WANT your power/bloodline/mystery to come from, that's what Divine Lance and a handful of other effects is targeting, that little box on your sheet that says "Deity" no more, no less.

Except, that's not actually what the rules say. The Character Creation > Deity section says to "Write down the deity your character worships, if any," and specifically calls two classes (cleric & champion) out as needing to choose a deity. The other classes don't actually have to fill it in; they have the option of doing so, but are by no means required to.

Perpdepog wrote:
Pixel Popper wrote:
Gortle wrote:
I'm not going to argue for atheistic divine casters as the concept is just stupid.

Oh, pish and tosh!!

Just because a caster doesn't believe in the gods doesn't the gods don't believe in him/her!

"Believe in the me who believes in you."

"No, don't wanna."

I think the term you're looking for may be "naytheist" there. Y'know, like Tony Stark, the guy that doesn't believe in gods despite literally having one as a coworker.

Silver Crusade

TheDoomBug wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Even if you do count Witches and Sorcerers as whole that's still only 3-2, not a majority in the sense I'd use.
You left out Monks, who like Sorcerers and Witches can choose to be divine, and like Champions are focus spell only, which brings it to 4-2.

I had forgotten Monks could pick Divine instead of Occult for their stuff yeah.

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