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It doesn't say melee-only or anything, so I assume it works for everything.
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Also there is an official Ghost Touch ranged weapon in the APG, so I think ghost touch isn't necessarily restricted to melee.
Also there is an official Ghost Touch ranged weapon in the APG, so I think ghost touch isn't necessarily restricted to melee.
The Ghost Touch rune itself has the "Usage: etched onto a melee weapon" part, so it's assumed it's not supposed to work on ranged weapons.
If it's assumed the Spiritsight Crossbow and the Duskwalker's ranged weapons are affected, then they need to errata that Usage part out of the rune.
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The melee restriction is not just a limitation of this rune? I don't see why we need an errata, is just a rune limitation not a global rule. That's the why the Spiritsight Crossbow and Spirit Strikes allow it for ranged attacks. They don't use this rune, they are a specific weapon feature and heritage feat, different things not necessary correlated.
Also there is an official Ghost Touch ranged weapon in the APG, so I think ghost touch isn't necessarily restricted to melee.The Ghost Touch rune itself has the "Usage: etched onto a melee weapon" part, so it's assumed it's not supposed to work on ranged weapons.
If it's assumed the Spiritsight Crossbow and the Duskwalker's ranged weapons are affected, then they need to errata that Usage part out of the rune.
Ghost Hunter allows them to "gain the effects of a ghost touch property rune", not gain the rune itself. Since they aren't etching the rune, there is no reason to look at the rules for doing so.
If it's assumed the Spiritsight Crossbow and the Duskwalker's ranged weapons are affected, then they need to errata that Usage part out of the rune.
It'd only need that if it actually granted the rune that you had to etch: nothing about the effect is restricted to melee.
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Why not? Besides the name "Blade" I don't see any restriction to make a Bow a Blade Ally and put Shifting in it:
Blade Ally: A spirit of battle dwells within your armaments. Select one weapon or handwraps of mighty blows when you make your daily preparations. In your hands, the item gains the effect of a property rune and you also gain the weapon's critical specialization effect. For a champion following the tenets of good, choose disrupting, ghost touch, returning, or shifting. For a champion following the tenets of evil, choose fearsome, returning, or shifting.
Once the Blade Ally doesn't explicitly say "melee weapon" just "weapon", the name blade doesn't have meaning here and is confirmed because the handwraps of mighty blows don't have a blade. So in the same way that you can change a handwrap to a sword you can also change a bow to a sword and so on.
The same to "the item gains the effect of a property rune", your weapon is not receiving a rune, it's receiving it's effects and it's effect don't explicitly say melee only, just the rune say melee only. If all runes requirements was needed here you wouldn't even use this until you put a +1 rune in your weapon.
You can put your shifting rune on any weapon.
However, sinceramente bows are the only obe 1+ weapons, you will only be able to swap it into another bow.
Effect The weapon takes the shape of another melee weapon that requires the same number of hands to wield.1 is different from 1+
Also "another melee weapon" sort of kills the notion too I'd think.
Or worse, you shift to a melee weapon, but can't shift back to the bow!(Though I agree nothing else counts as "1+" anyway there might be other ranged weapons with "1" or "2" listed.)
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As for the original post, I think that crossbow is an exception much like the keen longbow in Dragon's Demand, special and significant. The crossbow's special nature also would explain why it's Uncommon (since it's other ability isn't particularly odd).
I find myself unconvinced by the arguments so far and feel the weapons need to be melee to qualify for Ghost Touch. It's much like when a Shifting Rune changes a weapon to be unsuitable for one of the weapon's other Runes. The Rune might be present, but it doesn't function.
(Yes, again, the crossbow shows exceptions can occur, I just don't think the abilities referenced qualify as worthy of such an exception.)
I'd rule so in PFS, though wouldn't sweat a GM ruling differently.
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You might want to re-read the entire text for Shifting:You can put your shifting rune on any weapon.
However, since bows are the only 1+ weapons, you will only be able to swap it into another bow.
Effect The weapon takes the shape of another melee weapon that requires the same number of hands to wield.1 is different from 1+
Source Core Rulebook pg. 585 2.0Magical,Transmutation
Price 225 gp
Usage etched onto a melee weapon
With a moment of manipulation, you can shift this weapon into a different weapon with a similar form.
Activate Single Action Interact; Effect The weapon takes the shape of another melee weapon that requires the same number of hands to wield. The weapon’s runes and any precious material it’s made of apply to the weapon’s new shape. Any property runes that can’t apply to the new form are suppressed until the item takes a shape to which they can apply.
This rune can only be placed on melee weapons, which can then be transformed into other melee weapons only.
This rune can only be placed on melee weapons, which can then be transformed into other melee weapons only.You might want to re-read the entire text for Shifting:You can put your shifting rune on any weapon.
However, since bows are the only 1+ weapons, you will only be able to swap it into another bow.
Effect The weapon takes the shape of another melee weapon that requires the same number of hands to wield.1 is different from 1+Source Core Rulebook pg. 585 2.0Magical,Transmutation
Price 225 gp
Usage etched onto a melee weapon
With a moment of manipulation, you can shift this weapon into a different weapon with a similar form.Activate Single Action Interact; Effect The weapon takes the shape of another melee weapon that requires the same number of hands to wield. The weapon’s runes and any precious material it’s made of apply to the weapon’s new shape. Any property runes that can’t apply to the new form are suppressed until the item takes a shape to which they can apply.
They are saying Blade Ally can give the ability to a ranged weapon since it doesn't involve a Rune directly. (I disagree.)
This ties into the OP, which has a similar argument, except also has one exception in the game to point to.|
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The general consensus I have seen on Blade Ally is that you can not put the listed runes on a ranged weapon, as they are melee-weapon only runes: Champions were clearly designed with a melee emphasis and ranged builds don't seem to have been given any real consideration (They can use a bow, but they don't have the class features to actually use them 'well').
As for the Duskwalker feats, there is no clear answer: Either the developers
- a) forgot to specify 'melee' weapons only,
b) forgot that Ghost Touch is normally a melee-only rune,
c) forgot to clearly state this as an exception to the normal Ghost Touch rules, or
d) actually wrote these feats before the core rules were finalized and didn't catch the weapon-type restriction change when they were finally published.
GMs basically have to decide on one of the following:
- The specific ability overrides the general restriction on the rune (or the 'useage' text does not apply at all when you aren't actually applying a rune) and therefore works on ranged weapons, or
- The specific restriction on the rune overrides the general feat ability
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Thematically it makes sense for Duskwalkers to have a slight advantage in this area.
There is nothing technically wrong with the "effect of Ghost Touch" on a strike/weapon that wouldn't normally qualify for the Ghost Touch Rune.
There is no problem with the Duskwalker feats. The developers don't need to spell it out. I suppose it would have been nice, but they don't normally do this.
Yes the Spiritsight Crossbow is amusing as its technically not possible in the current rules. I guess that is why it is uncommon. I bet that they will eventually create a legal way for this to happen. There is little real reason for the restriction to melee only for most of these runes.
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I'd guess (and it is a complete guess) that nerfing archery was a primary goal of PF2e, which is completely understandable considering how powerful it could be in PF1e: Basically, they now trade off damage for the safety of range.
Of course, the specific runes that are limited to melee weapons don't necessarily fit this philosophy:
- Ghost Touch
- Disrupting
- Shifting - Maybe they just wanted to avoid having one weapon as both melee and ranged?
- Wounding
- Serrating
- Dancing - Okay, this one makes some sense: No dancing bows somehow pulling arrows from your quiver.
- Spell-Storing - Probably thought it felt 'wrong' to channel a spell through the one arrow that finally hit.
- Keen
- Vorpal
There as some flexible weapons, like bastard sword, that make the 2h + 1h/shield an option. Its just that normally the champion wants shield and reach. Because of their defensive focus, and reach limits on some of their Causes. Which means Flick Mace.
I hope they add a few ranged weapon specific runes.
I'm sure it is on the roadmap.
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Also, among melee weapons many runes are limited to a specific kind of damage
Keen > Slashing / Piercing
Vorpal > Slashing
Serrating > Slashing
Wounding > Slashing / Piercing
Cunning > Slashing / PiercingOn the one hand I do agree that lot might be just flavor restrictions, but on the other hand I'd consider that odd ( mostly given the fact they put a lot of effort into creating a well balanced system. So, I suppose there could also be some logic behind some rune restrictions ).
Could it be that bludgeoning weapons have some extra advantage compared to Slashing and Piercing ones? Like weaknesses/resistances for what concerns monsters.
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- Keen is a synonym for 'sharp' so the restriction makes sense from the name.
- Vorpal is all about chopping someone's head off, so the restriction makes sense (this coming from someone whose D&D2.0 character had a vorpal shortsword and never quite figured out how that would actually work).
- Serrating is a reference to a serrated edge on a blade, so the restriction makes sense mechanically.
- Wounding and Cunning both revolve around spilling your foe's blood, so yet again the 'No Bludgeoning' restriction makes sense.
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You can put runes like Shifting on Bows with Divine Ally, but they do not function since it's not on a valid weapon. Similarly to how you can put Keen on handwraps, but it wouldnt function if you don't use a piercing/slashing attack.
As for the ability mentioned, RAW it would not function on ranged weapons since the rune is explicitly for melee weapons, but RAI I'm sure they intended it to work. Unless you're in a Society game it should probably work on ranged weapons too.
Improvised weapons are simple weapons so if a bow is allowed as one, it counts as a melee weapon for Shifting. So if your DM allows you to hit someone with a crossbow or a shortbow in melee, you're all good.
Improvised Weapons [Core Rulebook pg. 278]: "Improvised weapons are simple weapons."
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I disagree with Graystone here. You can never just on a whim decide that your Ranged Weapon is improvised just so you can slap a Shifting or Ghost Touch Rune on it.
If you attack with something that wasn’t built to be a weapon, such as a chair or a vase, you’re making an attack with an improvised weapon.
If something WAS built to be used as a Weapon you cannot by RAW ever treat it as an Improvised Weapon, full-stop. If you want something to act as an Improv Weapon it specifically has to be something that is literally just not a weapon to being with and those rules are fully at-odds with ever treating something that WAS built to be a Weapon as an improvised one.
I disagree with Graystone here. You can never just on a whim decide that your Ranged Weapon is improvised just so you can slap a Shifting or Ghost Touch Rune on it.
When did I EVER say it was on a whim? I said "Improvised weapons are simple weapons so if a bow is allowed as one, it counts as a melee weapon for Shifting. So if your DM allows you to hit someone with a crossbow or a shortbow in melee, you're all good." Do note where I said "if a bow is allowed as one" and "if your DM allows you": it's hardly a whim when it's with DM approval... :P
If you attack with something that wasn’t built to be a weapon, such as a chair or a vase, you’re making an attack with an improvised weapon.
If something WAS built to be used as a Weapon you cannot by RAW ever treat it as an Improvised Weapon, full-stop.
I'm going to have to cut the brakes on that full stop. Ranged weapons aren't build as melee weapons and melee aren't build as ranged weapons without the appropriate traits. Myself, I'd also apply using a weapon in a way it's not designed for, like using a sword pommel or spear butt as the weapon wasn't designed for that type of attack.
IMO, it seems the height of silly to not allow someone to throw a sword, pommel strike with one or smash someone with the butt of a crossbow. As equally odd would be to allow it but use it's normal proficiency when it's not being used in it's intended way.
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It says "built to be a weapon"... so answer this - "Is a longbow/xbow/gun/sling built to be a weapon?"
If the answer to that is yes then it cannot ever be used as an Improvised Weapon, the rules leave no room for interpretation here, it doesn't say "built to be used as a weapon in a particular way"... you're wrong about this G.
For further reference take a look at the Improvised Weapon Master archetype that goes on at length to ONLY describe things that are not and never were any form of weapon to begin with, hell it even gives over a dozen examples of things that can be used this way and exactly zero of the provided examples are proper weapons.