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They actually had a panel on this at the last in-person PaizoCon, and Wayne Reynolds and others were on the panel talking about it.
Essentially, when art was being acquired for SF magazines, SF covers, Fantasy covers, etc, those artists also migrated into RPGs.
And as a result, the values that were being selected for were appealing to a very small subset of potential buyers while chasing the rest of the potential market away.
So Paizo (and related artists) made a shift (and not just with the new Edition) away from cheesecake/beefcake (in general) to 'more realistic proportions and characters'.
I've appreciated the change, to be honest.
The more life-like the characters are has made for better art, in my incredibly limited and humble opinion.
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I'm not really a huge fan of the "realistic" aesthetic, gonna be honest. It's not visually appealing to me--or, at least, I find it very limiting when it's the only style prioritized. One of the coolest aspects of Amiri is that she has a giant anime sword. It's that realistic? No. But it matches her aesthetic, which is "larger-than-life barbarian girl with a huge sword". Making her "realistic" would just remove a fun facet to her design aesthetic.
I also don't really buy the "narrow demographic" thing. Sure, if fanservice only ever offered to straight cis white dudes, but the fact is, the vast majority of the human race finds some enjoyment from fanservice, even if only aesthetically as "my goodness, what a beautiful person". Sex sells. It feels weirdly implausible to blame it entirely on, "oh, fanservice was killing our appeal".
I can see plenty of valid reasons, which is why I said I have mixed feelings about it. I just... don't know if I but that particular reason.
Catgirl is wise.
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There are basically two justifications I really buy:
1. "Pathfinder is an all-ages game." Sure. I mean, it... wasn't, and it not being all-ages was sort of a big part of what separated it from D&D, and some of the not-for-kids content was also its best or most well-remembered content (Calistria, the ogres, and the Shayliss scene come to mind), but being all-ages sells better, so I guess everything in Pathfinder has to be all-ages. I get the rationale, I respect it, but I don't have to like it. I also don't think fanservice is actually that threatening to an "all-ages" label.
2. "Fanservice disproportionately skewed towards featuring cis femme women, and the obsession with fictional women's sexuality made real women uncomfortable." I buy this, and I think there's definitely a grain of fairness to it. I just wouldn't have concluded "remove all horniness" was the most reasonable solution to the problem.
I get why they did it, but it's part of an unfortunate pattern of filing the edges off of artistic works--especially when those edges involve sexuality. Because, you know, rampant killing is fine for kids, but gosh forbid they see a woman's chest. :P
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1) One doesn't really come into it, since we had an article on Kytons/Velstracs in the first P2 AP and Agents of Edgewatch (even discounting playing as cops) first adventure, Devil at the Dreaming Palace, has one of the darkest sections in any material they've put out, dealing with a serial killer and his victims in a murder hotel.
2) Two is basically it, fanservice was basically siloed at one demographic and they dialed that back, granted I would have preferred all kinds of fanservice but given the development pipeline it's understandable they went that way.
Plus I like seeing outfits vs not-outfits. P2 Succubus*, cool dress, P1, forgot her clothes for the painting shoot, sexy yes, but doesn't leave much to the imagination. Sexy imagination good.
*In Extinction Curse part one The Show Must Go On there's a sexy librarian/teacher stylized succubus with the art emphasizing her assets, so fanservice is still going.
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Another thing for me, it's not a matter of realisticness, but consistency.
Everyone has outlandish weapons? Cool.
Cis men has "normal" looking armor while cis women have bikini plate and we're told they protect the same? Suspension of disbelief goes bye bye (also plays into the above about siloing the fanservice).
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I actually see "suspension of disbelief" a little differently, but I think my interpretation of consistency relies more on genre and aesthetics. "Pandering to cishet men" isn't an original aesthetic, but it is a consistent one. That said, I'm all for equal opportunity horniness.
(And I, too, like having costumes more than flat-out naked people--but honestly, I don't see a lot of the appeal in the latter to begin with.)
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Well, I see setting as a part of genre! But I got what you meant. :)
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Hey, Seoni may have a little more covered, but she's still showing some leg (and looks sick as hell). And Feiya's t&~+ are forever out. I think the level of Ooh Pretty Lady is generally alright at this point, but I'm also colored by my first AP being Carrion Crown, and there's a lady in book 3, Madame Ivanja (google her), who's definitely meant to be fanservicey but just kind of looks rough. So I've not had the best experience when it comes to finding Pathfinder art sexy in the first place. :P Usually it's all about those monster women. Hello, Efreet lady in the bestiary you can see on the 2e AON...
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I honestly never really found Seoni to be, like, a very successfully fanservicey character? I think her outfit was a little too much for me.
There's definitely still some solid content, and that's good. I dunno, maybe I'll change my mind when I eventually get ahold of a CRB. Sexuality's just really facing a lot of backlash these last few years in general, and I'm a little uneasy about it when I see a game I like appearing to get a lot more guarded--which is funny, because I used to be really annoyed by "excessive" fanservice for a whole bunch of reasons.
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Another thing for me, it's not a matter of realisticness, but consistency.
Everyone has outlandish weapons? Cool.
Cis men has "normal" looking armor while cis women have bikini plate and we're told they protect the same? Suspension of disbelief goes bye bye (also plays into the above about siloing the fanservice).
I need to get in the gym so I can wear a codpiece to protect future Freeholdian generations and rely solely upon my bare rippling muscles to protect everything else.
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I wanna start a thread about this, but I don't think I know the situation well enough to start it on the right foot.
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I wanna start a thread about this, but I don't think I know the situation well enough to start it on the right foot.
I am honored.
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The people have to know these things.
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I wanna start a thread about this, but I don't think I know the situation well enough to start it on the right foot.
Could you start it on the left foot? :>
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I honestly never really found Seoni to be, like, a very successfully fanservicey character? I think her outfit was a little too much for me.
There's definitely still some solid content, and that's good. I dunno, maybe I'll change my mind when I eventually get ahold of a CRB. Sexuality's just really facing a lot of backlash these last few years in general, and I'm a little uneasy about it when I see a game I like appearing to get a lot more guarded--which is funny, because I used to be really annoyed by "excessive" fanservice for a whole bunch of reasons.
The only time I was ever irritated and I think it was changed in 1E was Irrabeth. She goes from a dork to angry orc. Its odd because I don't think either is bad but I have a certain fondness associated with my avatar's artwork because I picked her for my paladin of Sheyln.
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I finally filed my application. A part of me really hopes I don't hear back from them, just out of anxiety, but it's out of my hands and off my shoulders and I feel better already. Now I can focus on the novel, PbPs, erotica, and the self-publishing game design stuff for a bit. You know, taking it easy.
I really want to get the portfolio looking prettier. The ancestry collection would be nice, but the dungeon collection, too, would be really helpful. I also had an idea today for an adventure involving a CN adventurer's ghost recruiting the PCs to help her reunite with her extremely estranged NG daughter.
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Been a lot better about actually cooking and meal planning instead of Doordashing this week! Kinda sucks that I have to take the lead on cooking when I'm also the only one with a job, but, well. Petty gripes.
Been a lot better about actually cooking and meal planning instead of Doordashing this week! Kinda sucks that I have to take the lead on cooking when I'm also the only one with a job, but, well. Petty gripes.
As I am now old, I do a lot more meal planning than ever before.
I tend to do a 'general rough plan' and then adjust on the fly. It's helped cut down on over-eating without being a 'diet' per se.
Some petty griping: My roommate is always like, "Oh, yeah, it's a lot easier for me to cook if you tell me what needs cooking." Like, yeah, meal planning is a significant and often-overlooked amount of work and strain, but I have a job. She doesn't really help contribute to the grocery list, either. She does the dishes, which I appreciate, but that's basically it lately. I've been handling the cooking the last week.
And then she gets sour when I suggest we eat one of the soup containers her mom sent her on the night she's out, and like, a) that's entirely fair, b) I buy literally all the food around here! I make most of the food around here! I pay 2/3 of the rent around here! Share the stupid soup!
Like I said, petty. We're parting ways soon, and my girlfriend and I will be moving in with two people who will hopefully be ready to contribute more.
Meanwhile, my girlfriend's stopped looking for cybersecurity work for the time being. She was trying very hard, but we agreed she's not ready. She's extremely afraid of strangers, and even the thought of doing a video call was paralyzing her. I wish I could tell her to go to therapy, but she doesn't feel safe around therapists. Too much like doctors. So she's going to focus on getting used to people for the time being.
Here's a question: What are your "productivity habits"? Mine are to get up and avoid all screens until I've eaten breakfast, showered, taken meds, and written at least a sentence, then "clock in" and ban myself from straying until noon. Sometimes it works. Not so much lately, but I live in mountains and valleys.
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I like to give myself time in the morning to drink some coffee and pop in here and read the news or sports depending on my mood.
But I'm a morning person so I'm usually up by 4 am anyway.
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As far as cooking goes, I actually haven't cooked a single thing since I got my promotion at work this last spring. Not that my wife makes everything, but when it's my time to cook I've found it way easier to order food to go.
And I've also been doing the dishes, which is the worst part of cooking.
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Tomorrow we go to check out a new place. Rental house. If it wouldn't be literally doxxing myself, I'd post pictures. I'm in love. It's next to a beautiful park and bike path, sequestered from neighbors but close to a good-sized town, it has three sheds/lean-tos (very important for a girl raised in broken-down-tractor country), and I could finally get my own room to myself again. In my entire life, I've only truly had my own room during brief stints of the college years.
I'm excited, the gf is skeptical. We're a good team.
Also, tomorrow I go to the DMV to get a new license. New name, new photo. Maybe I'll post a comparison before/after pic duo. It's a nice contrast.
I have 7 brothers and then moved in with friends after high school, and then moved in with my future wife. I've had my own room for exactly one week (when I moved in with my friend Chad but before Joey moved in with us and I split my room with him, it was a pretty big room).
We live in the middle of the city, almost downtown, but there are a bunch of wooded parks and three major grocery stores and a target and we're on a major busline and there are bike trails everywhere in Madison so it's pretty sweet.
Good luck with the rental!
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Tomorrow we go to check out a new place. Rental house. If it wouldn't be literally doxxing myself, I'd post pictures. I'm in love. It's next to a beautiful park and bike path, sequestered from neighbors but close to a good-sized town, it has three sheds/lean-tos (very important for a girl raised in broken-down-tractor country), and I could finally get my own room to myself again. In my entire life, I've only truly had my own room during brief stints of the college years.
I'm excited, the gf is skeptical. We're a good team.
Also, tomorrow I go to the DMV to get a new license. New name, new photo. Maybe I'll post a comparison before/after pic duo. It's a nice contrast.
I'll be right over.
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The Before/After! Disconcertingly, the black-and-white is the present image. :P
We went to the tour and applied a few hours later. Fingers crossed. I'm really allowing myself to hope here.
It's not disconcerting based on personal experience. Our state has gone to a 'temp' then 'perm' and the temp 'paper' is supposed to last three months until the perm is ready.
Now as 'full time/permanent'? Yeah, that's a bit disconcerting.
Hoping for the best on the house, it sounds like it will be good for you.
The Before/After! Disconcertingly, the black-and-white is the present image. :P
We went to the tour and applied a few hours later. Fingers crossed. I'm really allowing myself to hope here.
awright.
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Oh, I just meant disconcerting because usually B&W is the "past filter".
We got the lease!
Oh, I just meant disconcerting because usually B&W is the "past filter".
We got the lease!
Whoo hoo!!!
Oh, I just meant disconcerting because usually B&W is the "past filter".
We got the lease!
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOO
I'll be right over.Tomorrow we go to check out a new place. Rental house. If it wouldn't be literally doxxing myself, I'd post pictures. I'm in love. It's next to a beautiful park and bike path, sequestered from neighbors but close to a good-sized town, it has three sheds/lean-tos (very important for a girl raised in broken-down-tractor country), and I could finally get my own room to myself again. In my entire life, I've only truly had my own room during brief stints of the college years.
I'm excited, the gf is skeptical. We're a good team.
Also, tomorrow I go to the DMV to get a new license. New name, new photo. Maybe I'll post a comparison before/after pic duo. It's a nice contrast.
And now I can say: Feel free to bike over any time! ;)
Oh, I just meant disconcerting because usually B&W is the "past filter".
We got the lease!
Congratulations!
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oh my god I'm sick again
This is literally how my January started. Now it's ending the same way. "I'm very cross" is an understatement. The idea of having to isolate again, not to mention going through the unpleasantness of being sick again, keeps causing me to have panic attacks.
On the bright side, I had a very fun PF2 session today! The GM really likes the way I roleplay my character, which is very encouraging. :)
Get well soon!
Please heal.
The Before/After! Disconcertingly, the black-and-white is the present image. :P
We went to the tour and applied a few hours later. Fingers crossed. I'm really allowing myself to hope here.
About a year late to the party but congratulations. Looks like you've been doing really well for yourself. Gratz on the residence as well, and hoping for a swift recovery on the illness bit.
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I'm recovering, but my girlfriend's gotten pretty sick now. I'm also in yet another obnoxious tiff with my ex. So excited to not be living with her, but this sickness has delayed basically everything.
Glad to hear from you just the same, though!
Hope the GF has recovered fully by this point there KC. Also belated congrats on the new digs!
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Just chiming in here to add that I really miss Will O'Brien's work in Pathfinder 1e. People talk about Wayne Reynolds (of course) but I felt like Will O'Brien did yeoman's work on a lot of the NPC's and monsters but his work has also been judged to be "thematically inappropriate" for PF2e's new direction and it seems he mainly works exclusively for Kobold Press these days.
Now I'm curious what "thematically inappropriate" means.
But you can check out Will's deviantart and see for yourself. I don't know why he gets less work from Paizo than he used to, but it sucks and I wish he would get more.
That's some nice art. I like a lot of his monster aesthetics especially. If I had the kind of money to publish my own stuff I'd definitely consider him on the list for commissions.
I'm not seeing anything there that's overtly risque or "inappropriate", buuuut I'm also likely not the best person to be looking for such, for various reasons.