so I am player and have a dm working on a homebrew campaign and I'm having problems with the dm. So here is the issues I'm having I'm making a druid with two archetypes the (Bloodminger) and the (wild whisperer) the first archetype replaces the wildshape ability while the second archetype gives it back to you at 4th level. Do these archetypes work together???
No. They both alter wildshape in some form or fashion. Also your GM seems to think you're trying to abuse his niceness based on his Reddit thread. You may want to talk to him about that
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Source
Advanced Player's Guide pg. 72
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature. For example, a paladin could not be both a hospitaler and an undead scourge since they both modify the smite evil class feature and both replace the aura of justice class feature. A paladin could, however, be both an undead scourge and a warrior of the holy light, since none of their new class features replace the same core class feature.
Your archetypes can not be combined because:
Bloodline Mingler specifically 'replaces the druid’s nature bond and the wild shape class features' whileWild Whisperer specifically 'alters wild shape.'
In essence, if two archetypes affect the same ability they can't be combined.
Even if it's something like both of them just expanding what a base ability could do.
The rules around this have changed since the original printing because it became really unclear for what could and couldn't be combined, so it was simplified to "if it affects the same thing, no".
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Just to add my 2 cents: the Wild Whisperer Wildshape is a cost, not a benefit. The whole archetype adds a set of abilities, and one of the ways in which it pays is greatly reducing the benefits of Wildshape.
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Just to add my 2 cents: the Wild Whisperer Wildshape is a cost, not a benefit. The whole archetype adds a set of abilities, and one of the ways in which it pays is greatly reducing the benefits of Wildshape.
Very much this.
Ability swaps are not always balanced 1 for 1 but for the class as a whole, so you might gain an ability in exchange for losing a minor ability and reducing the strength of another: Trading this weakened ability away in an additional swap that assumes you had the full powered version would be extremely abusive.This is why the rules on this sort of thing are very strict.
But your DM is right, both in RAW (rules as written) and intent. Selling a power twice (or well, one and a half times) to get two different things from archetypes is exactly why you can't have two archetypes modifying the same ability. What you have is functionally getting something for something and then trading something you no longer have for something else. . Archetypes are supposed to exchange something for something.
Bloodline mingler
This replaces the druid’s nature bond and the wild shape class features.
Wild Shape (Ex)
At 4th level, a wild whisperer gains the wild shape ability, but she never gains access to any forms beyond Small and Medium animal forms, as beast shape I.
This ability alters wild shape.
BNW: So you're basically selling half your wildshape to gain investigator abilities. Which you can't do because you already traded it away for the bloodline mingler.
There are cases where altering the same ability shouldn't interfere with taking two archetypes, but this isn't one of them. One archetype costs your entire wildshape ability, the other costs most of your wildshape ability.
but at 4th level it says you gain wildshape does that mean you get wildshape back even though it got replaced at 1st level ??
also would the bloodmingler and the reincarnated druid work together because it says it gives you wildshape with no alter or replacement abilities ????
for one I respect the dm and I'm not trying to do anything except play my character and get a clear understanding of this combination. I'm under the impression since it says "CLEARY" it gives you wildshape at 4th level does that alter this ability of the wildshape or does that alter the ability of the wildshape you would normally have without the archetypes??
but at 4th level it says you gain wildshape does that mean you get wildshape back even though it got replaced at 1st level ??
No. You start with your class and trade things out from there. You start as a basic druid.
The Basic druid gets wildshape at level 4, letting them turn into a small or medium animal.
At 4th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the beast shape I spell, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with.
Lets say you add bloodline mingler next. You take out Wildshape. Then try to add Wild whisperer.
Wild whisperer is not giving you wildshape. The druid does that. Wild whisperer is limiting your Wildshape. You get to keep the 4th level version, but have to give up the 6th 8th 10th and 12th level versions to turn into larger animals/magical beasts and elementals. But you've already given up the 4th 6th 8th 10th and 12th level abilities when you gave up all your wildshaping for Bloodline mingler.
Doing it the other way doesn't help either. If you take the Wild whisperer you lose the 6 8 10 12 levels of wildshape. You can't just trade your remaining level 4 wildshape for bloodline mingler, it wants ALL the levels.
also would the bloodmingler and the reincarnated druid work together because it says it gives you wildshape with no alter or replacement abilities ????
No
The bloodmingler has you give up wildshape entirely
The reincarnated druid has you wildshape at 2 levels lower.
Wildshaping at 2 levels lower is a total non cost when you've given up wildshape. It's like buying the hard of hearing and deaf disadvantages on the same character.
Later archetypes started spelling out "this alters/replaces wildshape" to let you know which class features you'd locked out of other archetypes.
also the dm has a problem with my traits he thinks i am picking traits from the same source which i clearly am not! in most normal campaigns a character starts play with two traits. i have five traits and the dm wanted to know how i got five traits so i gave a clear brakedown on how i got it and the dm is under the impression something is wrong.
8th level character break down traits:
starts with two traits
one drawback give one extra trait
additional trait feat gives two more traits
TOTAL: 5 Traits
TRAITS:
adaptive magic(campaign trait)
cleaver mount (mount trait)
magical lingage (magic trait)
metamagic master(regional trait)
well-provisioned adventure (equipment trait)
i dont see what the issue is with this?
but the reincarnated druid doesn't have a alter or replacement like the wildwhisperer it only says you gain wildshape and it functions 2levels lower??
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but the reincarnated druid doesn't have a alter or replacement like the wildwhisperer it only says you gain wildshape and it functions 2levels lower??
Your statement is a contradiction.
Functioning as 2 levels lower is an alteration.
but the reincarnated druid doesn't have a alter or replacement like the wildwhisperer it only says you gain wildshape and it functions 2levels lower??
A basic druid gains wildshape at level 4. A reincarnated druid instead gains it at level 6, and it functions at 2 levels lower. While not explicitly stated, this is a alteration to the basic druid wild shape ability. Bloodline mingler removes wild shape from a druid completely.
You cannot alter something that was removed. You cannot remove something that was altered.
Because both archetypes remove or alter the wild shape ability they are incompatible with each other.
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also the dm has a problem with my traits he thinks i am picking traits from the same source which i clearly am not! in most normal campaigns a character starts play with two traits. i have five traits and the dm wanted to know how i got five traits so i gave a clear brakedown on how i got it and the dm is under the impression something is wrong.
8th level character break down traits:
starts with two traits
one drawback give one extra trait
additional trait feat gives two more traits
TOTAL: 5 TraitsTRAITS:
adaptive magic(campaign trait)
cleaver mount (mount trait)
magical lingage (magic trait)
metamagic master(regional trait)
well-provisioned adventure (equipment trait)i dont see what the issue is with this?
Providing this game gives two free traits (it's not actually part of the core rules) and that it allows drawbacks (likewise) and that it allows all traits (well-provisioned adventurer is banned in PFS at least) then this works. The traits are of different types, there isn't a problem with that, but there may be other problems as noted.
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If it's a homebrew campaign, Metamagic Master is a regional trait specific to Golarion. Adaptive Magic is a adventure path specific trait which is also similarly off limits to campaigns not using that adventure path.
While Adaptive Magic is pretty much harmless and I wouldn't care, Magical Lineage/Metamagic Master is a well known abusive cheese combo. Your DM is right to say no to it if they so wish.
there is alot of things that are OP but it depends on how you use things this is a homebrew campaign and the dm is already restricting certain elements into his game i just wanted to know if the traits i have is legal so the dm wont give me a problem
there is alot of things that are OP but it depends on how you use things this is a homebrew campaign and the dm is already restricting certain elements into his game i just wanted to know if the traits i have is legal so the dm wont give me a problem
If a DM is restricting something, and especially if they've provided those restrictions upfront in some sort of document rather than on the fly you're better off not arguing with them in my opinion.
As a GM for PF1, I had a big long list of house rules which included restrictions on character options. If I were involved in arguments over my decisions, it is unlikely I'm going to change my mind or feel anything but resentment over the situation.
Perhaps your GM is a better person than I, but I think this kind of feeling would be common among GMs.
Regardless, your GM is totally right about the archetypes.
but the reincarnated druid doesn't have a alter or replacement like the wildwhisperer it only says you gain wildshape and it functions 2levels lower??
The base druid has wildshape.
The reincarnated druids wildshape is altered so it functions as if it was 2 levels older. That is something taken away, not something given.
You're reading the way archetypes work the wrong way. That's messing up your reading of how they work. You have to start with the base class and go from there. For example, a druid with only one archetype that "gains wildshape at 4th level but can only turn into a toucan" doesn't have normal wildshape AND toucan wildshape. They lose regular wildshape and swap it for Toucan wildshape.
Likewise a druid archetype "giving" wildshape at -2 levels alters the way wildshape works.(making it worse)
A druid archetype replacing wildshape thats been made worse is using the same dollar to pay for something twice.
also the dm has a problem with my traits he thinks i am picking traits from the same source which i clearly am not! in most normal campaigns a character starts play with two traits. i have five traits and the dm wanted to know how i got five traits so i gave a clear brakedown on how i got it and the dm is under the impression something is wrong.
8th level character break down traits:
starts with two traits
one drawback give one extra trait
additional trait feat gives two more traits
TOTAL: 5 TraitsTRAITS:
adaptive magic(campaign trait)
cleaver mount (mount trait)
magical lingage (magic trait)
metamagic master(regional trait)
well-provisioned adventure (equipment trait)i dont see what the issue is with this?
It's worth noting that background traits are an optional rule. Most groups use them, but it's something you should check before the game starts.
2 traits is pretty standard, and it doesn't sound like your GM has a problem with this, so it should be fine.
2 more traits for the Extra Traits feat should be allowed if traits are being used, but check with the GM anyway. I had a GM question me on this for a one-shot, and he just hadn't noticed that I'd taken the feat (you read traits before you read feats, so understandable). Point it out politely, but be prepaired for that feat to be disallowed (I'd allow it but it's not a default option to see in most games).
Taking a Drawback in order to gain another trait is it's own optional rule. There are a lot of groups who DON'T use this rule, in fact I think the usual standard is that you don't. I wouldn't assume you can do this without specific GM permission.
Taking a Drawback in order to gain another trait is it's own optional rule. There are a lot of groups who DON'T use this rule, in fact I think the usual standard is that you don't. I wouldn't assume you can do this without specific GM permission.
Big agree here.
The one time my group has used the optional drawback was to roll randomly for the drawback, and then get an extra trait. And that also included removing drawbacks that wouldn't be relevant to the campaign. For example there is one that involves taking penalties against fey. If fey aren't prominent, or don't show up at all, in the campaign it's not a drawback. It's just a free extra trait.
Most people decided it wasn't worth the risk.
The one time my group has used the optional drawback was to roll randomly for the drawback, and then get an extra trait.
Oh that's a cool idea. I usually don't take Drawbacks even if they're allowed. They're usually either super-cheese (eg. Disable Devive penalty on my Paladin) or ther're game-breakingly bad (eg. -2 on attack rolls or something).
If I rolled for the Drawback I could build a character around it, or tweak a character idea to fit it without having that problem.
Limits encourage creativity ... I like it, I might try it for a backup character.
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"BigNorseWolf"] THX U
i just wanna point out once again that i do respect the rules of the GM and i just needed to know how this ability works because it was confusing and some people even thinks its a loophole but he thinks it is a stacking combo is it one or it simply just doesnt work? in either case that main combo is a no i understand. also the character advancement option gives character abilities of classes at certain levels is it possible to pick a druid to gain wildshape from that since you cant gain it from single class archetypes!
EX: SINGLE CLASS DRUID
CHARACTER ADVANCEMENT DRUID
DOES THAT WORK OR NO??
"MrCharisma"]
the gm is allowing the common drawbacks but not the major drawbacks this is a homebrew campaign that starts at 8th level and also the drawback works well with my character
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"BigNorseWolf"] THX U
i just wanna point out once again that i do respect the rules of the GM and i just needed to know how this ability works because it was confusing and some people even thinks its a loophole but he thinks it is a stacking combo is it one or it simply just doesnt work?
It simply does not work because both archetypes replace or alter the same ability of the base class. It is very clear in the rules that it does not work, and it isn't some corner case where it should be working. The type of stacking you're trying to do is specifically what the rules are meant to stop. It's not a loophole, its a wall where the wall is supposed to be with a no tresspassing sign on it.
In a point buy game you couldn't get points for both nearsighted and blind. Similarly you can't Trade your wildshape for sorcerer spells, and then trade your wildshape for investigator abilities. Or half of your wildshape. you can't both weaken your wildshape with -2 levels and then sell it off entirely. That's double dipping.
The reason they don't let you alter the same ability of the base class so so that you can't just keep giving away the same ability for the ability of every archetype out there. Look how many archetypes say "gain x ability"...if you read those as giving you that ability rather than alter the base class, what would prevent you from stacking 15 archetypes on a character?
EX: SINGLE CLASS DRUID
CHARACTER ADVANCEMENT DRUIDDOES THAT WORK OR NO??
No. Character advancement druid is not an archetype or anything. Its just a different way of running experience points to be more incremental rather than POOF I came back to the inn and now I have a PHD in history and learned to pick locks and can cast better spells and got better with my crossbow. Instead you advance those things as you gain XP rather than level. I don't think i've seen anyone use this, as it increases book keeping dramatically
If you want to add some skills to your druid, you should look at the Amature investigator feat.
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you cant lose something and get it at a reduced benefit. its 1 or the other
if ANYTHING is replaced or altered you cant replace or alter it a second time.
For example the brawler archetype Constructed pudgilist adds craft (weapons) to their skill list, even tho they already have it. so now it cant combine with ANY other archetype that alters skills, at all whether its giving more skills or taking them away.
so a druid archetype that touches the wildshape ability in any way, shape, or form (more, less, removes, -2 levels, whatever) can't be combined with any other archetype that touches wildshape in any way, shape, or form.
Character advancement druid is not an archetype or anything it gives you abilities of the character classes based off level so if your base class is a druid and you pick character advancement druid and you have the bloodmingler can you gain wildshape from character adavancment at 15th??
Do you mean VARIANT MULTICLASS DRUID?
If so then no you can't take this and also take levels in Druid. It's one or the other.
Variant Multiclassing (VMC) is pretty rare to see in games though, so that's something I'd check with your GM before using as well. If they are ok with VMC then ask them what they'll allow, they might let you do it.
the gm says(VMC) is allowed i just wanna know if that works with the normal druid class (vmc)is not an archetype or anything it gives you abilities of the character classes based off level so if your base class is a druid and you pick (vmc)druid and you have the bloodmingler can you gain wildshape from (vmc) at 15th?
Druid VMC Druid is not a thing. You can't take normal levels in the secondary class that VMC gives you.
If your GM decides to allow it anyway then yes, a blood mingler druid VMC (normal) druid gets a weak form of wild shape at level 15.
If you're asking whether taking archetypes with the secondary class that VMC gives you is allowed, then sorry but that isn't.
is that a rule or just your opinion? like can you take 6 levels of monk class than take vmc monk does that work??
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It's a rule.
This optional system allows a character to trade out half her feats in order to gain the benefits of a secondary class.
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It is probably a good idea to use either this variant system or normal multiclassing, but it’s possible for the two systems to be used together. In a game using both systems, a character can’t take levels in the secondary class she gains from this variant.
the gm says(VMC) is allowed you can MC normally as well but i wanna know can you take a normal class and take vmc of the same class!
if you take 4 levels in druid and take 4levels shifter does the archetype bloodmingler replace the wildshape from the shifter class also or just the druid??
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the gm says(VMC) is allowed you can MC normally as well but i wanna know can you take a normal class and take vmc of the same class!
No you can't.
if you take 4 levels in druid and take 4levels shifter does the archetype bloodmingler replace the wildshape from the shifter class also or just the druid??
Just the Druid.
Druid archetypes don't affect Shifter class featurss (or any other class). There are some limits on certain classes (eg. A Durid/Monk gets armour proficiency from Druid, but still loses their WIS to AC from Monk if they wear armour), but things like archetypes only affect their own class.
So if you went for a Shifter archetype that loses Wild Shape and VMC'd Druid you could get your Wild Shape back that way.
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I'm under the impression since it says "CLEARY" it gives you wildshape at 4th level does that alter this ability of the wildshape or does that alter the ability of the wildshape you would normally have without the archetypes??
I think the issue here is that you overvalue the phrase "a wild whisperer gains the wild shape ability". This is not actual rule text, it doesn't change or do anything. It's merely explanatory text. It doesn't grant you Wild Shape when you wouldn't get it, the only purpose of it is to indicate that the level where a Wild Whisperer initially gains Wild Shape is not changed.
The ability could (and should!) have been written like this: "Wild Shape (Ex): A wild whisperer never gains access to any forms beyond Small and Medium animal forms, as beast shape I. This ability alters wild shape."
but the reincarnated druid doesn't have a alter or replacement like the wildwhisperer it only says you gain wildshape and it functions 2levels lower??
That's because when Paizo introduces archetypes, the "this ability alters <class feature x>" wording was not jet established, only replacements where called out. It took them a while (~two years) to realize that explicitly calling out alterations would be useful, too, so only archetypes made after ~mid 2012 use that wording. For older archetypes (most notably those from Advanced Player's Guide, Ultimate Magic, and Ultimate Combat), you have to use your brain.
Regarding your traits: Per the rules, you don't simply select a campaign trait if you want to. If the GM decides to use campaign trait, you have to take one campaign trait from that campaign, if not, campaign traits are not selectable. The GM could, of course, use campaign traits from a different campaign for his homebrew one, or override the rules, but if they haven't done that, Adaptive Magic is not a valid choice when playing anything but Reign of Winter.
@The OP's GM. This player sounds like they are going to be a real pain. I recommend booting them before they cause trouble at your table by arguing with every decision you make that isn't in their favour.
For the record, this board NEVER has this much agreement on anything. If you're getting a unanimous opinion from this hive of scum and villainy it's for a good reason....
Most of the scum left for 2e
Wow I know some of us are bad but.. 2e?
ow ow ow kidding ow ow ow newspapers hurt ow ow ow...
"Derklord"]
yes i understand how the archetype works now i appreciate you guys for helping i needed to clarify the wording but (derklord) hit it right on the head that was one of the main reasons why i got confused and as far as the traits are concerned this is a homebrew campaign where traits from different campaigns are legal. for the record the GM is very cool and we never had any issues im simply making a character for his game