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I’d apply this to more than just swashbucklers. Wizards, and now playtest inventors also have this issue. My houserule is that you select one skill your class automatically trains you in, and you become expert in that skill at 2nd, master at 7th and legendary at 15th.
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Free skill increases in your path skill feels logical to me.
Really I think that should be a general principle, if your class relies on a certain skill to function, the devs should throw them a bone. You just get so few top level skills in PF it feels bad not to.
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I think most classes have some skills that are very useful to them, and it's fine if you "have to" put some of your skill increases there. Sword and board fighter probably wants some Crafting to repair their shield. Wizard wants Arcana to scribe spells more reliably.
But the swashbuckler needs two skills and needs to be maximally competitive because you're often going to use them against above-level enemy DCs.
So I think it's reasonable to give the swashbuckler a bit of a boost there.
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I'm really not seeing the issue here. Or, slightly more accurately, I think its a pretty minor problem
I think you're looking at it slightly backwards. You decide which skills you want to maximize and THEN build the swashbuckler around it.
Everybody (except Rogue and Investigator) have to live with the fact that they're more narrowly focussed than perhaps they'd like. Why should Swashbucklers be any different?
The Acrobat dedication goes a long way to fixing this. Acrobats have LOTS of class skills that they REALLY want to take so not being able to branch out is a pretty minor issue for them in practice.
And if you REALLY want to excel in skills there are always the options of multiclassing into Rogue or Investigator OR playing a rogue who multiclasses into swashbuckler and plays largely as a swashbuckler. It doesn't have to say swashbuckler on your sheet in order for you to be able to buckle with the best of them :-)
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The acrobat basically fixes this problem, and gives you some really fun skill feats and swashbuckler themed class feats to boot.
Imo, we need more archetypes like this. One for every skill might be gratuitous, but I can see one that auto scales perform and craft and adds extra untility to them. These are two of my favorite skills rp wise, but they have little mechanical effect on their own when compared to a lore skill
Overall, I don't find the normal progression to be too bad, my table still routinely gets use out of trained skills, even at higher levels.
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Of course, you can just focus in one skill feat, but if your style is useless (gymnast against ghost or fencer against mindless) or against extremely high save, you wish you picked acrobatic.
Sometimes, your character faces situations where their usual method of winning is impossible to use unless they built and planned for it. Having an Animal Barbarian, I am well aware that facing enemies that can stay at range is a big weakness for my build. So I build and plan around it.
I see it as a feature of the system. Not a bug. Why should the Swashbuckler get a free pass here?
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I hear the argument for increases being mandatory, but why would anyone pick Swashbuckler if they didn't want to max acrobatics? And similarly, why would you pick diplomacy as the style if you didn't want to max diplomacy? That's basically the point of that class. Well, that and having a dex based melee build, I suppose. But you still get all the benefits of having those skills maxed. If none of the skills are ones you want to max, why not just be a rogue?
Lots of class feats also encourage skills to be maxed, FWIW.
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I hear the argument for increases being mandatory, but why would anyone pick Swashbuckler if they didn't want to max acrobatics? And similarly, why would you pick diplomacy as the style if you didn't want to max diplomacy? That's basically the point of that class. Well, that and having a dex based melee build, I suppose. But you still get all the benefits of having those skills maxed. If none of the skills are ones you want to max, why not just be a rogue?
Lots of class feats also encourage skills to be maxed, FWIW.
I think that's the difference though, they encourage it.
Like all of your same arguments could be said about a Fighter and Athletics, but if a Fighter chooses their feats accordingly, Athletics is completely and totally optional beyond the initial trained.
Swashbucklers however have their main class feature tied not to one, but to two different Skills, which is a pretty heft tax considering how sparse Skill Increases come about.
If there were other ways to elevate Skill proficiency, then it'd be less of an issue, but the fact of the matter is that you have to make a pretty heavy choice at 3/7/15 on which one of your skills you are going to favor more (Acrobatics or X) while already being required to max the respective abilities for that Skill as well (DEX and X's ability).
And when I say "other ways", I consider an Archetype solution to an In-Class problem not exactly ideal. When you have to be less of your Class to solve problems your Class has, I consider that a red flag. It's one of the reasons I had a problem with the current Gunslinger.
Of all the current classes with "encouraged" skills, there is nothing even approaching the level of requirement that Swashbuckler's have for their respective skill increases. Even the Alchemist/Inventor don't lean on Crafting as much as Swashbuckler has to lean on two separate abilities.
I think it's more than fair to say that locking the Swashbuckler into 2 Skills is a little bit too heavy of an enforcement and it's basically mandatory considering the Swashbuckler needs them to be able to keep their standard damage ratio.
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The problem is that the Swashbuckler needs two skills to be a functional character.
You can literally play a Wizard without maxing Arcana, or a Rogue without Thievery or Acrobatics, or a Fighter without Athletics. They're useful skills but not required.
The same is not true of Swashbuckler.
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Right, I get that. And it would be one thing if those skill investments did nothing else for the class. But a swashbuckler who invests in acrobatics still gets all the utility a monk gets from the same investment. A swashbuckler who invests in diplomacy gets all the same usage a bard gets.
But having an additional reason to max those skills is all the whole point of the class. The swashbuckler exists so you actually have a reason to use acrobatics plus your key skill in combat. The class is designed to make doing sweet flips a viable part of a fighting style.
If I didn't want to play a character with maxed acrobarics I would not pick a swashbuckler. Just like if I wanted to play an archer I wouldn't pick a barbarian. If I wanted to play a class that could be acrobatics but also good at 5 other skills, I'd pick a rogue.
Giving a free progression helps the swashbuckler diversify, sure. But it also upgrades them to a skill monkey class and I don't especially see why they need more maxed skills than bards or rangers or whatever. At least, not conceptually. If you think swashbucklers are underpowered and just need a buff, go nuts.
Also, I think is is fine if you just want to give every class free scaling increases like Squiggit suggests. I just don't think the Swashbuckler feels special in that regards.
Basically I am against buffing the class when there's several other options to do finesse fighting without acrobatics plus another skill.
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I would argue they are a bit of a Skill Monkey, that's what the whole point of the bonus Skill Feats they get is for.
Now the truth is, if a Skill Feat comes out that allows you to increase Proficiency the problem is already solved because the Swashbuckler gets these bonus Feats.
But the reality is that Bonus Feats don't really help the Swashbuckler gain panache.
And on the "two avenues to succeed", it's two things you have to juggle repeatedly to be able to achieve the damage you need to be relevant.
If you choose Tumble? Guess Feinting is out until you gain level 5 because you're going to be -20% on all your feint checks.
Tumble is already the most valuable choice if only because DEX is possible to be maxed, so you're effectively cutting off your whole Style just so you can have the most efficient means of getting Panache. In fact, I would say free scaling on the Style skill is pretty much a consolation prize that makes sense. As a Swashbuckler, I consider Tumbling optional, but the Style you chose should be integral to the way the Class is played (and the way skill increases work, this has the opposite effect).
It'd be less of an issue if your damage wasn't gated behind two fronts or if it were possible to say "stack" panache by gaining it in two ways.
When it's a race between the two, it just means the other won't really get used that much (or potentially at all).
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In short, new Skill Feat that allows you to increase Proficiency of a Skill if you meet certain prerequisites (maybe INT like the Trained Feat equivalent) would solve most of the issues the Class has because it can actually afford that.
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That they gave the Swashbuckler two different ways to gain the resource they need is now considered a weakness of the class ?
The problem is that if we take a level 20 swashbuckler of a certain style, 2/3 of their skills are pretty much guaranteed to be the same, because they need that.
This isn't true of any other character. Even if you have two finesse fighters, for example, that doesn't mean that they're both going to be picking the same skills. One fighter might take Athletics, Society, and Intimidation, while the other might take Deception, Stealth, and Acrobatics, and they'd both be fine characters.
While, yes, you would only play a swashbuckler if you wanted to play that style, and the class is designed to make that style functional, I don't think it's good that making that choice reduces character differentiation that hard. You won't see as much differentiation between two Fencer swashbucklers as you could, because they're so heavily locked into wanting both skills.
While increasing Acrobatics is technically not a requirement, a Braggart that only increases Intimidation will not be doing very well as soon as they run into a high Will enemy. A Fencer who runs into an enemy with extreme Perception is basically down to playing a finesse fighter with very few class feats. Watching my player's Battledancer throw Fascinating Performance over and over at the group of enemy clerics hurt to see.
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I get that. When I face distant enemies I cannot get close to, it is painful for my Animal Barbarian to stay out of rage so that he can use ranged weapons he has trouble hitting with.
That is adventuring life though. And I feel better when contemplating the beating my PC will deliver to his next melee opponents.
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While increasing Acrobatics is technically not a requirement, a Braggart that only increases Intimidation will not be doing very well as soon as they run into a high Will enemy. A Fencer who runs into an enemy with extreme Perception is basically down to playing a finesse fighter with very few class feats. Watching my player's Battledancer throw Fascinating Performance over and over at the group of enemy clerics hurt to see.
To add to that, saying Acrobatics isn't a requirement is pretty untrue. Acrobatics is the highest possible Skill a Swashbuckler can have to achieve panache. You simply cannot increase the other skills to the same heights due to Primary Ability Score being DEX.
On top of that, Tumble Through has plenty of Feats tied to it and it is pretty much the only Skill action of the total options under Styles that are guaranteed to work.
Bon Mot would require you to share a language, which means anyone you can't talk to it doesn't work.
Feint has the Mental trait which means Mindless creatures then it won't work.
Grapple and Trip are a little more possible to pull off on creatures, but you pretty much need Tumble Through on any turn in which you don't want to suffer MAP.
Demoralize only works once per combatant and suffers from the same issues as Bon Mot and Feint.
In short, the Style options are actually not that good when you compare them to Tumble Through in terms of "how often you can use them", they just also happen to provide Debuffs. But then there's ways to make Tumble Trough better for Swashbuckler and it inherently lends itself to positioning for Flank.
And because of all that, Acrobatics is actually the best increase of Skill almost every time over your style option.
That's more or less why I wish Style just granted free scaling or that Skill Feat existed, because then at least the Style option wouldn't feel so inferior.
Why play a Swashbuckler rather than a Rogue then?
This keeps getting said. All I can say is please stop repeating it.
The Swashbuckler and the Rogue play nothing alike and acting like adding a little alleviation to multiple Skill Increases being needed issue as if it encroaches on the Rogue is quite frankly ridiculous.
I don't see anyone making those arguments for Investigator, which gets just as many Skill Increases as Rogue. We're talking about one or two grandfathered, predetermined, skill increases so you can effectively access your Class damage.
It's not the same to play a Rogue for a variety of reasons and it's kinda weird to even make that distinction when the Investigator literally gets Skill Increases as often as the Rogue does. I don't see anyone saying "WhY nOt JuSt PlAy a RoGue!?" to the Investigator.
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Then you put your primary into Acrobatics and your style's skill becomes a secondary way to get Panache.
Or you take dedications that will give you more skill raises.
I really see no reason why Swashbuckler should have a preferred treatment compared to other classes who also have to pay in some way to compensate their weaknesses, even if the currency is not always skills.
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Then you put your primary into Acrobatics and your style's skill becomes a secondary way to get Panache.
Or you take dedications that will give you more skill raises.
I really see no reason why Swashbuckler should have a preferred treatment compared to other classes who also have to pay in some way to compensate their weaknesses, even if the currency is not always skills.
Show me any other martial Class whose damage is contingent on a Skill check.
I'll wait.
and if this is the counter:
Having an Animal Barbarian, I am well aware that facing enemies that can stay at range is a big weakness for my build. So I build and plan around it.
Let me remind you that Swashbuckler's wield Finesse weapons which means they must be in melee to deal their damage.
It's not a "weakness", a weakness is something your Class is inherently less good at because of choices that you made or because of your Class selection being less efficient at facing the particular creature.
The Swashbuckler suffers from a unique issue in that accessing their Class Features requires them to succeed at rolls that numerically are required to be above a certain amount.
Meeting a scaling number condition is not the same thing as meeting the requirements for Sneak attack or simply being in melee range (animal barbarian). Especially in a tight math system where you can't pump those statistics higher.
Imagine if Ranger's had to succeed at a Survival check in order to get Hunt Prey instead of it being a "bonus" when they do it precombat. That's effectively what we're talking about here, the upside is that the Skills are meant to provide benefits themselves, but the problem with that thesis is in order for them to be effective you have to basically use all of your skill increases on the Skills mentioned.
That cuts down on character diversity. The issue is not "why do I have to be good at X Skill?!? It should be optional!" its "I can't be good at any other skills like other Classes can because my skills are not optional".
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Tl;dr Requiring success at a generally on-level check is not the same thing as meeting the requirements for Sneak Attack. You can gain FF a number of ways and several of them do not involve you doing any on-level checks and they cost you absolutely 0 resources to achieve them. Taxing a Swashbuckler 2/3 of their Skill Increases to their Skills for gaining panache is rough AND it still isn't healthy since the increases create staggered usage of Skills (at level 3 the one you didn't choose is much worse).
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The acrobat basically fixes this problem, and gives you some really fun skill feats and swashbuckler themed class feats to boot.
Imo, we need more archetypes like this. One for every skill might be gratuitous, but I can see one that auto scales perform and craft and adds extra untility to them. These are two of my favorite skills rp wise, but they have little mechanical effect on their own when compared to a lore skill
Overall, I don't find the normal progression to be too bad, my table still routinely gets use out of trained skills, even at higher levels.
I do agree, as archetypes which add skill options are pretty neat, plus effects which work on those skills. It can be pretty easy to name and flavor those skills.
Athlete, Arcanist, Occultist, Thief, Survivor, Entertainer, etc. Since we already got Medic and Acrobat dedications, why not these too?
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Show me any other martial Class whose damage is contingent on a Skill check.
I'll wait.
Any martial that uses maneuvers should boost Athletics, and a Dread Striker Rogue needs Intimidation. While playing a Swashbuckler without good Acrobatics or their Style skill is sub-optimal, that's true for any build that relies on a skill. While there is no optimal way to play a Swashbuckler that doesn't increase Acrobatics, I don't see that as problematic.
I think most optimal builds should boost one skill or another. It's just that for a Swashbuckler the best skills to boost are self-evident by the time the player chooses the Swashbuckler class and the Style of their choice.
Let me remind you that Swashbuckler's wield Finesse weapons which means they must be in melee to deal their damage.
This isn't true. If they can take the Flying Blade feat and use a weapon with a Returning Rune the thrown and finesse traits, then they're the best switch-hitters in the game. This benefit increases if they choose a Style that let's them gain Panache at range.
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Any martial that uses maneuvers should boost AthleticsShow me any other martial Class whose damage is contingent on a Skill check.
I'll wait.
Not required to get their damage, which is what I stated in a prior post. It is a choice. Swashbuckler's don't get a choice on that, they have to max a Skill to be able to access damage.
Dread Striker Rogue needs Intimidation.
This is straight up a Feat choice, and it does NOT mandate intimidation. In fact, if you were to go Eldritch Trickster you could trigger this with Fear.
Frightened != Intimidation it's just the most likely avenue.
Especially considering allies can bestow frightened...
And that's really the whole argument "My specific build which I deliberately have to invest in needs a Skill!" does not change or refute that the swashbuckler has a built in Class chasis around using specific skill actions.
With those gated class wide requirements, they are forced into choosing a small subset of skills as their increases and they must choose which of their skills they wish to use more often to trigger their main damage.
Seriously, come on. "My specific feat path that I chose doesn't work if I don't take Skills!" is not the same as "My entire Class falls flat if I don't max my Skills at every turn."
Even in the case of the Dread Striker, you know what happens if you don't max Intimidate? You "wasted" a grand total of 1 Class Feat on something that will still come into play if any of your party members use Demoralize.
What does the Swashbuckler do if they don't spend their Skill increases on the "proper" Skills? They become terrible.
By leaving it up to choice, you're dictating a "trap" players can fall into if they don't know better or are outright stating "You do not get choices for your Skill increases".
This isn't true. If they can take the Flying Blade feat and use a weapon with a Returning Rune the thrown and finesse traits, then they're the best switch-hitters in the game. This benefit increases if they choose a Style that let's them gain Panache at range.
Rofl so once again a specific build that overcomes the melee weakness (when the argument against was a specific Barbarian Totem being hamstrung to melee) refutes what exactly?
I was pointing out how by default the Swashbuckler is just as hamstrung to melee as the Animal Barbarian. Your specific build doesn't change that at all.
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If none of the skills are ones you want to max, why not just be a rogue?
Probably because they don't want to be a rogue. Presumably that's why they picked swashbuckler and not rogue in the first place.
Weird I know. That someone wants to play a class and not another class and that telling them to go play another class doesn't help anyone or anything.
Lots of class feats also encourage skills to be maxed, FWIW.
It's not great for anyone, but at least for feats it's something you have to buy into. For the Swashbuckler (and inventor too) those skill uses are baked into core class features.
I really see no reason why Swashbuckler should have a preferred treatment compared to other classes
Same reason any class in the game gets anything another class doesn't. Besides, it'd still be worse than what Rogues get and it's not like Rogues are any worse at fighting than a Swashbuckler.
It seems weird to talk about "special treatment" when having your class features tied to skill checks is already special treatment, just in the other direction.
If none of the skills are ones you want to max, why not just be a rogue?Probably because they don't want to be a rogue. Presumably that's why they picked swashbuckler and not rogue in the first place.
Weird I know. That someone wants to play a class and not another class and that telling them to go play another class doesn't help anyone or anything.
Lots of class feats also encourage skills to be maxed, FWIW.It's not great for anyone, but at least for feats it's something you have to buy into. For the Swashbuckler (and inventor too) those skill uses are baked into core class features.
I really see no reason why Swashbuckler should have a preferred treatment compared to other classesSame reason any class in the game gets anything another class doesn't. Besides, it'd still be worse than what Rogues get and it's not like Rogues are any worse at fighting than a Swashbuckler.
It seems weird to talk about "special treatment" when having your class features tied to skill checks is already special treatment, just in the other direction.
I just don't really understand why someone would play Acrobatics: the class if they didn't already want to be good at acrobatics. Not every class works for every concept-- that's why we have classes in the first place. Yeah, other classes don't need skills for combat the same way, but the Swashbuckler isn't any weaker for having a better acrobatics than it does thievery or whatever. It's just a little more locked into one path.
I don't really see a meaningful difference between this and trying to be an archer barbarian. I guess that line is subjective though.
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Rofl so once again a specific build that overcomes the melee weakness (when the argument against was a specific Barbarian Totem being hamstrung to melee) refutes what exactly?
I was pointing out how by default the Swashbuckler is just as hamstrung to melee as the Animal Barbarian. Your specific build doesn't change that at all.
I sure wish my Animal Barbarian had a feat that would similarly help him use his rage at range, and give him some attack bonus to be on par with what a Swashbuckler with Flying Blade can do.
I am not holding my breath though.
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If I understand well, the Swashbuckler should get the Acrobat dedication for free as well as something equivalent for their style's skill?
And I guess they should keep their additional skill feats too.
Indeed, why play Rogue at all, or why even take a skilled dedication?
Even though it is something all other non-skilled martials have to do if they want to get this kind of skill support. Well, less actually, since they will not have the free skill feats of the Swashbuckler.
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If none of the skills are ones you want to max, why not just be a rogue?Probably because they don't want to be a rogue. Presumably that's why they picked swashbuckler and not rogue in the first place.
Weird I know. That someone wants to play a class and not another class and that telling them to go play another class doesn't help anyone or anything.
Lots of class feats also encourage skills to be maxed, FWIW.It's not great for anyone, but at least for feats it's something you have to buy into. For the Swashbuckler (and inventor too) those skill uses are baked into core class features.
I really see no reason why Swashbuckler should have a preferred treatment compared to other classesSame reason any class in the game gets anything another class doesn't. Besides, it'd still be worse than what Rogues get and it's not like Rogues are any worse at fighting than a Swashbuckler.
It seems weird to talk about "special treatment" when having your class features tied to skill checks is already special treatment, just in the other direction.
I just don't really understand why someone would play Acrobatics: the class if they didn't already want to be good at acrobatics. Not every class works for every concept-- that's why we have classes in the first place. Yeah, other classes don't need skills for combat the same way, but the Swashbuckler isn't any weaker for having a better acrobatics than it does thievery or whatever. It's just a little more locked into one path.
I don't really see a meaningful difference between this and trying to be an archer barbarian. I guess that line is subjective though.
that feels really disingenuous. The issue is not "I want to be a swashbuckler without acrobatics" the issue is that as soon as you pick a style, 2/3 of your skill choices become locked in stone and ANY deviation from this path is self sabotage, no other class restricts your options this much, in practice they only have 3 skill boosts above trained that they can make a choice with and they don't get their first until level 11!
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Indeed, why play Rogue at all, or why even take a skilled dedication?
- Reliable Sneak Attack damage you get by flanking and doing nothing else
- Skill Increase every level which is not what has been proposed and Skill Feats every level
- The largest starting Skill count in the game
- The ability to max ANY ability Score besides CON, the likes of which other Classes cannot even attempt
- Dex to Damage
- Rogue Class Feats which are, ya know, only available to the Rogue
- Debilitating Injury, Deny Advantage, Better Perception, Surprise Attack, Master Tricks
Unless you think "One free Skill that increases as I level" = "Skill increase every level".
By which case, Let me clear it up, it's 7 less Skill increases than the former and there's absolutely 0 choice in the matter.
Yeah, look at that, Rogue and Swashbuckler would basically be identical if Swashbuckler's got any Skill help. It's kinda crazy.
Oh wait, Investigator exists. Better delete the Rogue!
I sure wish my Animal Barbarian had a feat that would similarly help him use his rage at range, and give him some attack bonus to be on par with what a Swashbuckler with Flying Blade can do.
Oh man! I forgot Raging Thrower and Javelins were off the table if you are an Animal Barbarian.
Oh wait, you mean they aren't? Huh.
Besides this whole "my melee barbarian sucks because sometimes I am at a range" is literally the biggest strawman in the world and has little to nothing to do with a Class whose feature we're discussing is not a choice.
It was a choice that you made when you chose Barbarian Instinct that has positives. Not an inherent negative. You are not weighted permanently to increase ANY of your abilities. In fact, there are built in pieces to the Instincts to alleviate the game as it scales.
There is no choice with the Swashbuckler, the design of the Class when it comes to Skills is the antithesis of choice. In fact, it's the equivalent of a test with correct and incorrect answers.
You hit level 3 and you didn't increase Acrobatics/X to expert? Guess what! You're now 20% worse as a character and it only gets worse as you level.
The Swashbuckler does not "get better" if they select their Skill as a Skill Increase, the Swashbuckler just avoids becoming a lot worse.
That's the difference.
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Wishing to have 5 skills to max on a good martial class when most classes have 3 and skilled classes have 6, without having to take a dedication, does not feel like nothing to me.
Who said 5 Skills maxed? The suggestion I've seen is for the Style Skill to be free.
That's three Skill increases.
And once again, why aren't you up in arms about the Investigator? It has the exact same number of increases as the Rogue. Should we delete one? Because I think it's pretty obvious that they fill entirely different niches.
As if Swashbuckler is some broken OP class right now. Most people consider it one of the weaker martials and if you're playing with the Finesse Weapon Nerf (I'm not) then I would have a tough time arguing against it.
Even if they got Acrobatics and X skill for free to Legendary, who cares? I seriously doubt that Acrobatics being Legendary for free is going to shatter the ceiling of power...
God forbid Swashbucklers could afford skills besides the mandatory ones.
Instead of saying "Swashbuckler's get 5 legendary skills would be a problem", why isn't it "Swashbuckler's only get to choose 1 legendary skill".
Because that's the reality.
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In PF2, classes are means to an end. The piece of advice I always read for newcomers is do not fixate on the class. Start from the concept of your character and then choose the class that best supports it.
That's all well and good, but classes are also the mechanical components they give you too.
You can build a conceptual swashbuckler as a rogue, fighter, swashbuckler... even a ranger, paladin or investigator, really... but if you enjoy the mechanics of finishers and don't enjoy sneak attack "just play a rogue" is worse than worthless.
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Wishing to have 5 skills to max on a good martial class when most classes have 3 and skilled classes have 6, without having to take a dedication, does not feel like nothing to me.
I would be happy with 4, one more than standard, I just really dislike the fact that as is your skill increases for the first ten levels are completely inflexible.
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I sure wish my Animal Barbarian had a feat that would similarly help him use his rage at range, and give him some attack bonus to be on par with what a Swashbuckler with Flying Blade can do.Oh man! I forgot Raging Thrower and Javelins were off the table if you are an Animal Barbarian.
Oh wait, you mean they aren't? Huh.
Animal Barbarian anathema : using weapons while raging
So no benefit from Raging thrower and javelins, except losing your defining class abilities for more than a full day.
I get that you do not see this as comparable, but I do. There are ways for the Animal Barbarian to still fight such enemies, for example by having one of his precious 3 advancing skills be Athletism, and spending skill feats that, contrary to the Swashbuckler, he does not get for free
Just like the Swashbuckler can take the Acrobat dedication.
I see both as similar.
Though I would like being able to choose an Athlete dedication :-)
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Even on raging thrower doing it in a dire moment of need, which if you’re stuck not being able to melee it might actually be, seems like it does actually qualify as situational but a way to help cover the weakness. And besides, when your big argument is “take an archetype” it devalues your whole point. Why not adapted cantrip and grab a Ranged cantrip and Moment of clarity. Would you look at that!
Skill increases, skill feats, class feats, General feats, Ancestry feats are all progressive character choices. Things you should have relatively large freedom in selecting within your respective bucket.
Every class can pick a general feat they qualify for and end up with at least a decent choice.
Same for skill feats. Same for class feats. Same for Ancestry feats. And in all of these scenarios there are multiple “correct” answers or no correct answers.
For a Swashbuckler any skill increase that isn’t tumble or style skill at levels 3/7/15 are incorrect choices and much more so than any other above choice because it amounts to a mathematical problem, not a versatility one.
You simply can’t afford not to take them.
Thus, Swashbucklers have 1/3 the agency of a normal Class in terms of Skill Increases. And people already complain about only getting 3.
Edit: to add to this, I vastly dislike the idea of Swashbucklers hitting 3/7/15 and for two levels repeating their chosen skill over and over with no variation because it’s optimal. With a class whose routine is so locked as it is, it makes me cringe. I can’t imagine explaining this to the new player I just started on Swashbuckler, so if he hits three I might just go ahead and houserule it so he can Feint and Tumble.
In PF2, classes are means to an end. The piece of advice I always read for newcomers is do not fixate on the class. Start from the concept of your character and then choose the class that best supports it.That's all well and good, but classes are also the mechanical components they give you too.
You can build a conceptual swashbuckler as a rogue, fighter, swashbuckler... even a ranger, paladin or investigator, really... but if you enjoy the mechanics of finishers and don't enjoy sneak attack "just play a rogue" is worse than worthless.
Finishers only really feel like a distinct mechanic in so far as they are tied to skill usage, though. Other classes can do the "one big hit" thing. A melee investigator's attack routine isn't actually that different. Ripostes aren't especially unique, either, though Swashbucklers do get the earliest access to them.
that feels really disingenuous. The issue is not "I want to be a swashbuckler without acrobatics" the issue is that as soon as you pick a style, 2/3 of your skill choices become locked in stone and ANY deviation from this path is self sabotage, no other class restricts your options this much, in practice they only have 3 skill boosts above trained that they can make a choice with and they don't get their first until level 11!
Yeah, but that's only a problem if you didn't want those to be your first skill increases anyway. And I presumably you picked the style that matches the skill you wanted to be good at. That isn't possible for all the skills, currently, but they could also just make more styles to fix that. Yeah, you're locked into the choice from level 1, but lots of classes make choices they are stuck with at level 1. Not for skills, but plenty of other important stuff. A sorcerer's bloodline determines a quarter of their spell repertoire, for example.
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I do agree that the compulsory nature of these skill increases are a problem. You really do have to maximise two skills as a swashbuckler, and I would want to have the option of another. I do support some improvement here.
Some mitigation that already exists:
Stylish Tricks does give the Swashbuckler extra skill feats.
Its fairly easy to pick up extra skills via an ancestry feat, or the Skill Training skill feat. But only at the trained level.
Skilled Heritage will get you another expert skill for Humans.
Acrobat Dedication for Acrobatics mastery as has already been mentioned.
Rogue Dedication (3 skills) and Skill Mastery (skill mastery plus a skill feat) but that is too expensive IMHO.
There are some limited cross skilling feats like Acrobatic Performer which allows you to use Acrobatics for Perform.
Animal Barbarian anathema : using weapons while raging
Be a leshy that takes the seedpod feat: now your animal ranger has a ranged attack at 1st.
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Animal Barbarian anathema : using weapons while ragingBe a leshy that takes the seedpod feat: now your animal ranger has a ranged attack at 1st.
This solution is far more restrictive and impossible to go back from than the taking the Acrobat dedication that many do not want the Swashbuckler to "have" to take.
I do not think they would like your solution.
As mentioned, there are ways to build around the Swashbuckler's restriction, just as there are ways (like the one you propose) to build around the Animal Barbarian's restriction.
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Technically Barbarians have a way to deal with flying foes in Sudden Leap, but it requires athletics investment, requires them not to be flying too high and only lets you do one attack a turn.
Until high levels, most enemies don’t have flight + ranged attacks, avoiding reactions or anything else that would make readying a grapple or trip an unviable solution though.
Animal Barbarian anathema : using weapons while ragingBe a leshy that takes the seedpod feat: now your animal ranger has a ranged attack at 1st.
Cute it doesn't break your anathema true. But neither does not raging and using a thrown or missile weapon.
Its not a thrown attack for Raging Thrower. Given that your rage bonus doesn't apply to ranged attacks and the increase only specifically to the animal instinct attacks. Not sure it has much point.
At least your hands are still free.
Cute it doesn't break your anathema true. But neither does not raging and using a thrown or missile weapon.
Its not a thrown attack for Raging Thrower. Given that your rage bonus doesn't apply to ranged attacks and the increase only specifically to the animal instinct attacks. Not sure it has much point.
It allows you to stay in rage and make a ranged attack: for instance a target you're raging against takes flight and you want to keep attacking but would rather not lose your Animal Skin or temp hps. Is it a huge boon? No, but it does give a bit of versatility AND it would use your Handwrap runes so you're aren't paying for another weapon.
Plus your hands are free. ;)
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Technically Barbarians have a way to deal with flying foes in Sudden Leap, but it requires athletics investment, requires them not to be flying too high and only lets you do one attack a turn.
Until high levels, most enemies don’t have flight + ranged attacks, avoiding reactions or anything else that would make readying a grapple or trip an unviable solution though.
No need for high level to be stuck with ranged attacks.
I had a 1st level encounter where enemies with ranged weapons were on the other side of a corridor with magical traps. To close on them, you needed to endure the traps' damage and you would be alone facing them in melee, since the squishier PCs did not want to risk taking the traps' damage and going down.
I took my sling out and did not rage. Needless to say, the fight lasted longer and with much more HP lost on our side.
Cute it doesn't break your anathema true. But neither does not raging and using a thrown or missile weapon.
Its not a thrown attack for Raging Thrower. Given that your rage bonus doesn't apply to ranged attacks and the increase only specifically to the animal instinct attacks. Not sure it has much point.
It allows you to stay in rage and make a ranged attack: for instance a target you're raging against takes flight and you want to keep attacking but would rather not lose your Animal Skin or temp hps. Is it a huge boon? No, but it does give a bit of versatility AND it would use your Handwrap runes so you're aren't paying for another weapon.
Plus your hands are free. ;)
Ok then. Fair response.
Still not using doing it though.
I think I rather be a Harmlessly Cute Leshy Barbarian instead.
Maybe later...