Mein's page

I'm really not seeing the issue here. Or, slightly more accurately, I think its a pretty minor problem

I think you're looking at it slightly backwards. You decide which skills you want to maximize and THEN build the swashbuckler around it.

Everybody (except Rogue and Investigator) have to live with the fact that they're more narrowly focussed than perhaps they'd like. Why should Swashbucklers be any different?

The Acrobat dedication goes a long way to fixing this. Acrobats have LOTS of class skills that they REALLY want to take so not being able to branch out is a pretty minor issue for them in practice.

And if you REALLY want to excel in skills there are always the options of multiclassing into Rogue or Investigator OR playing a rogue who multiclasses into swashbuckler and plays largely as a swashbuckler. It doesn't have to say swashbuckler on your sheet in order for you to be able to buckle with the best of them :-)

Do you lose access to sneak attack if you don't max your thievery as rogue? Does your spell power degrade if you don't max out religion as cleric? Does ranger somehow become worse in battle if they ditch survival/nature? Now, does swashbuckler become worse if they don't max their acrobatic/style? Acrobatic and style skill is heavily tied into their class feature that not investing into them is basically self-sabotage. Any other method to gain panache is either unreliable (killing off with finisher) or happen once a battle ('after you' feat). Of course, you can just focus in one skill feat, but if your style is useless (gymnast against ghost or fencer against mindless) or against extremely high save, you wish you picked acrobatic.

I will repeat this again, acrobat should not be the fix for swashbuckler. No class should need specific archetype to fix their flaw. It's even worse than feat tax because you can't branch out and take interesting dedication easily.

As for which skill to max before picking swashbuckler, while it is nice, sometimes you want to get a skill or two outside of what's available to help the party against out of combat problem.

Today, I'd like to highlight some of swashbuckler problem that goes beyond the combat encounter, skill increase tax. As a swashbuckler, you usually have acrobatic and your style starting at trained at level one. And as you progress, you're expected to increase both of them since they would target different save and give you choice in a given encounter.

The problem with this design is how, as normal class, swashbuckler can only have 3 skills to be maxed. Thus, they need to invest two of their skill into acrobatic and their style. In gameplay, it makes them feel one-note and have hard time doing anything beyond acrobatic/style. Want to focus on medicine? Too bad, you have to choose between delaying acrobatic or style, which you would regret either way when you're against certain enemies for at least 6 levels.
As I've said, playing swashbuckler optimally (for combat) gives them less wiggle room outside of combat. Yes, diplomacy and intimidation might help. But what if I also want to take stealth or thievery? Do I have to stay trained at them until level 11 because I need to focus on my style and acrobatic?

Some of you might suggest acrobat dedication, but I'd say that doesn't solve the problem. It's an archetype tax, a feat tax along with the fact that you can't pick another dedication until you put more feat into it. What if I want to get other dedication? Do I have to spend 2 other class feats into acrobat just to get another dedication?

Which is why I'd like to suggest a fix to this problem, automatic skill increase similar to acrobat dedication. With this, swashbuckler can get free skill increase in their style starting at level 2 until legendary. This way they can free up one of their precious skill increase into other skill of their choice. What if they pick acrobat? Then that's fine. Any other class can take acrobat and get the same benefit. Swash is just one that really want acrobat because of their problematic skill increase and how tied it is to their class power level as a whole.

This free skill increase can also be applied to some other class that feel like some of their skills are mandatory. The upcoming inventor and wizard comes into mind. Inventor require crafting to use their class feature and fix their item, and it is a mandatory take. Wizard feels mandatory in arcana because it's required to learn a spell. Unlike other class, it's part of their feature to get more spell known and expected to learn more spell outside of what the class give initially.

I hope the developer can look at the suggestion in this post and improve swashbuckler class as a whole in next APG errata. I love swashbuckler and how they play out in game, but some of their design frustrate me. I'm sure others have cried about key ability score locked into dex and low base damage for non-gymnast swash at low level, but this time I want to focus on skill increase tax that applies to all swashbuckler.

Inventor here!

When I skimmed the inventor's feat and innovations, I didn't see any of them as particularly strong. Unstable is basically focus spell with extra step, and overdrive damage scaling is bad at level 20.

Which was why I wanted to do something different, taking advantage of those "weak" innovations into something I can exploit. That's when I see the idea of making maneuver-focused inventor came from. Maneuver stays relevant at late game, and the addition of traits means I don't need free hand, and they all benefit from 15 ft reach.

My level 9 innovation was manifold alloy, I didn't think any of the other choice give meaningful contribution, so why not go for 0 cost cold iron and silver?
I picked dual-form weapon to prepare for ranged or flight battle. But as I chose its innovation, I realised most of the ranged choice are trash. Sniper is worse backstabber, and extra 10 ft range is only good if you use guns. Same goes for the level 17 innovation. My best choice was dice upgrade, because the rest weren't good enough. Although I do think that extra rune slot would've been better for extra energy coverage or other stuffs.

On the actual play itself, my Action routine rarely changes. Just try to trip first to gain panache, after that I can fish for restrained condition.

Overall, I agree with Exo's opinion. It's a good combo but the only advantage was the reach. Other classes can do as good if not better job even without reach (monk, flurry ranger, or specific fighter build).

Since my build is out of the expected inventor use, I wasn't surprised none of the inventor's feat cater my build. So most of the time I took swashbuckler's feat.

One thing I regret was using meddler feat chain. I am not sure if it's impactful enough, but I'm playing with just one other teammate, so it's skewed. Maybe if there's 3 martials other than inventor, it gets to be impactful.

1. UTC+7, so it'll be around 14 hours from you.
2. Most of weekend is viable for me, except your midnight hour. (afternoon is not always fine)
3. Binge playing since last month. I think I have general gist of the game right now
2. Ranged ranger or any spellcasters