The Wendigo

[Zapp]

(First off, apologies if comments about individual Monster stats belong in a different forum)

The Wendigo, Bestiary page 327.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=409

Am I missing something or is their insanely cool ability to whisk away people seriously squandered here?

Correct me if I'm doing this wrong (and I would love to be wrong here):

Round one: moving up to their target (not a problem with Fly Speed 100), attacking and hitting with their claw, and then maintaining that grab.

Player fails to escape the grab.

Round two: casting Wind Walk, the player fails his save, and then windwalking away...

...except how far?

Okay, so Wind Walk has a 10 minute casting time but the stat block sure seems to suggest that's not the case for Wendigos. But read closely - Ride the Wind doesn't cast the spell, it's triggered by the spell's casting.

So what is it? Does the Wendigo spend ten minutes to cast the spell... or does it cast the spell as part of a single reaction? Both options seem equally absurdly powered (underpowered and overpowered respectively).

And Wind Walk only contains a speed rating expressed as miles per hour since it expressly doesn't work during combat.

Sure 20 miles per hour corresponds to a Speed of 200 (though with limits on direction changes etc), which makes sense for a creature that can move that far using two actions each round.

But it would still be nice if the stat block expressly pointed out the differences between Wendigo-walk and regular Wind Walk.

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In short:

If the Wendigo can Ride the Wind after merely grabbing a creature, the ability feels very powerful and borderline broken - It can start its round by making a Claw attack, and then end that round 200 feet away, all but ensuring the allies of its prey cannot come to its assistance. (This isn't what the rules actually say)

If the Wendigo can Ride the Wind after ten minutes... no, that's just silly. (Still, it's what the RAW tells me)

But even if the Wendigo were to cast Wind Walk using the regular two actions, it would still be kind of slow, since the action economy then all but forces it to grab the target on a previous round before actually making its escape.

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Actually, to be playable I would think the Wendigo needs a different ability, one that is cast (much) faster but moves (much) slower and generally is geared towards regular encounter mode.

But since I don't want this thread to be moved into Homebrew, I will have to create a different post for this there.

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Any insight would be welcome. Are there any rules I have misinterpreted or overlooked? Have you GMed a Wendigo fight? Have you survived a Wendigo as a player?

Cheers

[Zapp]

I propose the following fix. Please read it carefully and review how it attempts to straighten out the many question marks created by the RAW.

https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43aui?Ride-the-Wind#1

(I'm not posting the suggestion in this thread, because that might make the mods shunt the entire discussion away into Homebrew. The summary is that I'm turning Ride the Wind into an ability that doesn't actually cast or reference the spell, and hopefully fixes everything that's needed by an ability intended to be useful in combat - including how it interacts with combat actions and combat damage)

[Malk_Content]

For me the Wind Walk and Ride the Wind abilities are not meant to be used against an equal level foe, but are rather abilities that allow the Wendigo to be a beast that applies time preassure to the heroes due to the threat it poses against lower level populations. A wendigo can almost effortlessly hold on to a low level NPC and then abduct it 10 minutes later, starting the events to create another Wendigo.

If you as a player know of these abilities (likely after a little while due to the Wendigo's "reproductive" nature.) you know you are on a timer to save the day. You see a Wendigo fly over head after failing to find it's lair. It's heading back to the village you are trying to protect. If you take the safe route back to town you might not make it in time, or rest after any encounter etc.

[CorvusMask]

I think its error resulting of 1e wind walk being 1 standard action to cast.

In theory I guess they could grab foe and drag them upwards normally, but yeah, it does seem like something needs fixing regarding ride the wind.

[Ascalaphus]

CorvusMask wrote:

I think its error resulting of 1e wind walk being 1 standard action to cast.

In theory I guess they could grab foe and drag them upwards normally, but yeah, it does seem like something needs fixing regarding ride the wind.

Yeah this looks like an error. I'd rule that they can cast it as a 3-action spell, which then triggers the reaction.

This ensures that it takes two rounds to get the whole thing going (establish a grab in the first round, cast the spell in the second). That's similar to how it worked in 1E as well. I wouldn't make it a 2-action spell like most spells, because then the Wendigo could do it as a 1-round gambit (grapple maneuver, spell) which seems too fast.

[Artificial 20]

This looks like mechanics recycled from a different monster called the Wheredhego, which was cut from the bestiary.

[Ravingdork]

Artificial 20 wrote:

This looks like mechanics recycled from a different monster called the Wheredhego, which was cut from the bestiary.

LOLsnort.

[Zapp]

Malk_Content wrote:

For me the Wind Walk and Ride the Wind abilities are not meant to be used against an equal level foe, but are rather abilities that allow the Wendigo to be a beast that applies time preassure to the heroes due to the threat it poses against lower level populations.

Okay.

I take the different position where Ride the Wind is far too cool an ability to not be useable against opponents of similar levels. If you think the ability needs to have the Incapacitation trait, sure - then I just need to use the Wendigo against level 17 heroes! :)

[Zapp]

CorvusMask wrote:

I think its error resulting of 1e wind walk being 1 standard action to cast.

In theory I guess they could grab foe and drag them upwards normally, but yeah, it does seem like something needs fixing regarding ride the wind.

Interesting. Didn't think to check the 1E Wendigo

[Zapp]

Ascalaphus wrote:

Yeah this looks like an error. I'd rule that they can cast it as a 3-action spell, which then triggers the reaction.

This ensures that it takes two rounds to get the whole thing going (establish a grab in the first round, cast the spell in the second). That's similar to how it worked in 1E as well. I wouldn't make it a 2-action spell like most spells, because then the Wendigo could do it as a 1-round gambit (grapple maneuver, spell) which seems too fast.

I wouldn't bother with it in that case. If you must hope the hero doesn't Escape during an inbetween turn the ability is no longer practical against level-appropriate foes.

And against low-level foes you don't need rules. You just say "the villager is taken by the wind and never seen again".

Since the only reason for having actual rules is against level-appropriate foes, I strongly believe it is towards these level-appropriate foes the abilities should be geared.

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That said, are you thinking the caster of Wind Walk gets movement automatically (without spending actions)?

If you can cast the spell and end the round 200 feet away that's at least something.

(I think the casting time is too long and the movement speed is too fast, but that's another issue)

[Zapp]

Artificial 20 wrote:

This looks like mechanics recycled from a different monster called the Wheredhego, which was cut from the bestiary.

badum tish

[Malk_Content]

Zapp wrote:

Malk_Content wrote:

For me the Wind Walk and Ride the Wind abilities are not meant to be used against an equal level foe, but are rather abilities that allow the Wendigo to be a beast that applies time preassure to the heroes due to the threat it poses against lower level populations.

Okay.

I take the different position where Ride the Wind is far too cool an ability to not be useable against opponents of similar levels. If you think the ability needs to have the Incapacitation trait, sure - then I just need to use the Wendigo against level 17 heroes! :)

Its a potentially worse than insta-kill ability so I would always be wary on using it on players. But if it was errata'd to be more encounter time friendly, I wouldn't complain. Just that I'm happy using it as an ability that tells an interesting story within the game world right now. I think without it they make for great high level "mooks" due to the simplicity of their statblock and their ability to reproduce through abilities incredibly fast.

[Zapp]

In my opinion, heroes of level ~17 can deal with "worse than insta-kill".

Just bring it - in my experience high-level D&D heroes can take it. Relegating Ride the Wind to some sort of background narrative power would be a waste and a shame.

Besides, it's clearly intended to be used in combat. So it is broken. But more importantly:

The reason it shouldn't reference Wind Walk isn't because Wind Walk just doesn't work in encounter mode. The reason it shouldn't reference Wind Walk is because it doesn't result in a fun play experience.

The time needed to set up the power is too great (and I'm not talking about ten minutes here) but the speed with which the Wendigo can then escape is also too great.

The ability makes much more sense (from a fun play challenge perspective) if
1) it's fast enough to actually be useful and happen in games
2) the Wendigo can't then immediately escape, outrunning every hero

Instead of an ability that can only succeed once in a blue moon, but then be an almost-ensured "worse than insta-kill" Paizo PLEASE rework the ability so it
1) stands a reasonable chance of actually happening to level-appropriate heroes
2) but still leaves resourceful or clever characters some hope of getting back their friend before the Wendigo disappears in the snow

I am arguing you need to do more than a minimal errata here, Paizo. You need to redesign the ability from scratch, just like I have done here.

Cheers!

[CorvusMask]

Definitely agreed that it needs to be errata'd somehow <_<

[Ascalaphus]

I think the intent is that it's supposed to be a bit of a scare - you get grabbed, and then people got only one round to somehow get you out of its clutches or it whisks you away.

Yeah, for a level 17 party that should be doable. For a level 15 it would not be that easy. Remember that the intended shelf life of a monster is roughly from +2 to -2. Maybe from +3 with a monster like this that feels particularly like a plot boss.

[Zapp]

The problem with that is the "got only one round" part.

If the ability (once successfully executed) is a death sentence, of course it must be so hard to pull off that it "never" happens.

My analysis remains: the core issue here is the speed of Wind Walk.

If the kidnapping speed weren't quite that fast, Ride the Wind could actually happen to PCs, since their allies could shoot the Wendigo out of the wind before it's too late. And everything else about the ability sorts itself out.