Iterative attacks and secondary natural attacks have an attack reduction. For example, the second attack in a full-attack routine at +6 Base Attack Bonus or higher is made at -5, as is a secondary natural weapon attack when attacking in concert with other weapons.
If one of these penalized attacks strikes and features the grab universal monster ability, does the grab feature also use the -5 penalty?
Yep ... ?
|
Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.
CMB = Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier
Base Attack Bonus +15/+10/+5
Some natural attacks are denoted as secondary natural attacks, such as tails and wings. Attacks with secondary natural attacks are made using your base attack bonus minus 5.
Both the iterative attacks and secondary natural attacks modify the BAB of the character for that attack. As you use the BAB to determine the CMB, the CMB is affected by that change.
It is fun, but in the CRB there isn't a paragraph about iterative attacks.
Iterative attacks and secondary natural attacks have an attack reduction. For example, the second attack in a full-attack routine at +6 Base Attack Bonus or higher is made at -5, as is a secondary natural weapon attack when attacking in concert with other weapons.
If one of these penalized attacks strikes and features the grab universal monster ability, does the grab feature also use the -5 penalty?
Yes. Grab is using your CMB, and penalties(to include penalties from iterative attacks) that apply to your attack rolls apply to CMB rolls.
Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.
So when you make that 2nd attack that reduction to your attack roll also applies to your CMB rolls.
Thank you, everyone. In order to be as fair as possible, I wanted to see if my conclusions were reasonable before informing a player of the penalties.
Excellent feedback as always, Elder Brain.
|
|
Personally, I am on the camp of 'unless it says it uses the bonus of your previous attack' then all triggered attacks are at full BAB. Examples include: Bashing Finish, Retributive Kick, Serpent Lash, etc.
Benefit: Whenever you score a critical hit with a melee weapon, you can make a shield bash attack against the same target using the same bonus as a free action.
Benefit: When you make a full attack with an appropriate melee weapon and your first attack misses or is blocked, deflected, parried, or otherwise caused to not hit the target, you can immediately make an unarmed attack against the same target with the same attack bonus.
In this instance, you attack with the full bonus, but only because you can use it only with the first attack of a full attack. If you are using two-weapon combat, you take the penalty.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a disarm or trip maneuver with your whip. If it succeeds, you can make an additional disarm or trip maneuver with the same bonus against a target adjacent to the first and also within your whip’s reach.
All of them say "with the same bonus". I fail to see how you read differently from "with the same bonus of the attack you made".
Keep in mind this FAQ though.
Yes, we were going to keep such things in mind. The assessment was whether or not an iterative attack would apply penalties to the attached grab or trip ability.
I am aware that the story changes once the full-attack ends, though keep in mind there are exceptions (Such as when using Power Attack).All of them say "with the same bonus". I fail to see how you read differently from "with the same bonus of the attack you made".
I believe he was running with the logic chain of 'If many sources list a specific as if an exception, then the standard is not the listed exception', citing that those feats are examples of specific cases of rider effects using the delivery attack's bonuses, and thus it might not be the norm for rider effects to do that.
Is that assessment of your point correct, Firebug?
I agree with firebug here, the "free action" implies it's extra and an interrupt-like action. I could see the penalty for specific limbs applying if grapple wasn't a full body affair (like in 3e), but because as soon as a monster with grab grabs, they are no longer able to full attack if they want to keep ahold of the grab (no matter how big or how many grabbing limbs they have), and because CMB/CMD scaling favors defenders as you level higher and higher, I don't think either penalty should be being applied, RAW or RAI.
Then there's the -20 to not gain the grappled condition (implying that the grabbing limb is now all that's involved instead of the creature's whole being, but if you can successfully initiate the grapple with a -20, then you can for sure maintain when the penalty gets removed with an additional +5 (nvm the fact that maintaining is no longer free like it was in 3e/3.5 so a monster having the grapple is almost always objectively worse off in choosing to maintain). Personally, whenever something succeeds with that -20, either because they deserve it or because the target grappled earned the punishment for getting caught out, I just let the attack auto-maintain for free, because monster grapples are just awfully weak.
|
|
From what I have seen the bonus attacks that are part of a full attack always specify if you make the attack with the full bonuses or the bonuses of the attack you just made, regardless of them being a free action, a no action, or another kind of action.
It they aren't part of a full attack, but instead they are something that, depending on the circumstances, you can make while doing other actions, even full attacks, they are done at full BAB and use they modifiers.
As an example, if you get an AoO, it doesn't matter if it is done during a full attack or as a reaction outside of your turn, it is made at full BAB.
No, my bad. I meant that round over round, it's not in a monster's interest to maintain a grab even if they have constrict. They can on the following turn, either A spend a standard action (and have no significant use for their move action) to make one attack against a specific, already targeted enemy and not even get to respond to AoO or B let go and make all of their attacks on anyone within reach as well as try to catch anyone else who might provoke. As B will be the better option in 99% of grapple monsters, the grab feature is really worthless. That was one of my points at least.
The thing is, that the grab check isn't part of a full attack. It's a response to an attack, whether the specific grab attack was made by itself or as part of a full attack. It's also an action that otherwise can never happen in place of an attack, meaning its effectively exempt from iterative penalties like trip is (and I don't even think I have seen bonus trips on things like werewolves take things like iterative/secondary NA penalties).
Edit: I've also never seen things like PA penalties apply to monster, bonus combat maneuver checks in the few examples given in low level modules.
Not in the tactics section of the stat blocks but they sometimes say in low level modules "takes a -1 to attack for +2 bonus" because they assume the GM might not have much experience either, and I personally can't remember any of them that mention the penalty also applying to an extra maneuver.
|
|
Not in the tactics section of the stat blocks but they sometimes say in low level modules "takes a -1 to attack for +2 bonus" because they assume the GM might not have much experience either, and I personally can't remember any of them that mention the penalty also applying to an extra maneuver.
It is in the benefit of the feat:
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls.
...
You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn.
The penalty for Power Attack applies to all the attacks you make until the start of your nest round. The bonus damage too, but if your attack doesn't deliver damage you still suffer the penalty. You suffer the penalty and the benefit even with your AoOs, but you aren't forced to use it with your first attack of the round, if you want you can active it with the second, third, etc., or even an AoO.Simply, after it has been activated, it stay active until the start of your next round.
Combat maneuvers, per se, aren't a primary or secondary natural attack, nrt a weapon attack, but they are performed with a limb, body, tentacle, weapon and so on, and apply the appropriate modifiers for the weapon or limb used.
As already pointed above, a secondary attack has a modified BAB. If you make a combat maneuver as part of a secondary attack, you use the modified BAB.
The penalty for Power Attack applies to all the attacks you make until the start of your nest round. The bonus damage too, but if your attack doesn't deliver damage you still suffer the penalty. You suffer the penalty and the benefit even with your AoOs, but you aren't forced to use it with your first attack of the round, if you want you can active it with the second, third, etc., or even an AoO.Simply, after it has been activated, it stay active until the start of your next round.
You do have to declare Power Attack before your first attack.
You can make exceptionally deadly melee attacks by sacrificing accuracy for strength.
Prerequisites: Str 13, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
@Charisma, that second highlight doesn't mean before all your attack rolls in a round, it just means you can't roll a specific attack, see how well you do, and then apply the penalty for free extra damage because you can do math faster than the GM can or you saw you rolled a natural 20.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I see what you're saying, I disagree.
We can let that be a disagreement for now though, it's not super relevant to the thread.
|
|
I see what you're saying, I disagree.
We can let that be a disagreement for now though, it's not super relevant to the thread.
I agree with AwesomenessDog. It doesn't say "before you sue your attack action" or "when you use your attack action". It says "before making an attack roll".
You make an attack roll when you make any of the attacks of a full attack, and when you make an AoO, so you can activate it before any of the attacks.