Hi everyone.
I have an encounter I'll have to run some sessions away.
This encounter features the monster Poltergeist. This creature has the following ability:
Natural Invisibility A poltergeist is naturally invisible. It becomes visible only when it uses Frighten.
Since my casters have True Seeing, I'm wondering how this two game elements interact if they cast the spell in combat.
True Seeing Spell 6
Divination Revelation
Source Core Rulebook pg. 378 2.0
Traditions arcane, divine, occult, primal
Bloodlines diabolic, genie
Cast Two Actions somatic, verbal
Duration 10 minutes
You see things within 60 feet as they actually are. The GM rolls a secret counteract check against any illusion or transmutation in the area, but only for the purpose of determining whether you see through it (for instance, if the check succeeds against a polymorph spell, you can see the creature's true form, but you don't end the polymorph spell).
Natural Invisibility doesn't have the illusion keyword, but it is basically a permanent invisibility effect... would you allow for true seeing to work against it? for the record, these poltergeists are more powerful than the one in the Bestiary.
Thanks.
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You may want to clarify with your players how True Seeing works differently in PF2 than it did in many previous iterations D&D=>PF1.
It's invaluable to set players' expectations before such issues arise so there's not a "Well then I would've taken See Invisibility" issue.
The spell used to be absolute, and now it uses a counteract plus has corner cases like this one where it doesn't work since the "True" appearance is invisible. As a player, it would've been a rude awakening for me (though hopefully by those levels I'd have learned to search for such variance.)
An argument could be made that Natural Invisibility doesn't have the tag since the sub-ability Invisibility already assumes that. Not a great argument since it isn't the spell, yet someone with a pre-PF2 concept of True Seeing might take that route.
Yeah, True Seeing isn't anywhere near as strong or cool as it used to be, where it would work on all visual effects, compared to it only working on spell effects now. Plus, if it's not heightened, it can be easily counteracted in the higher levels.
It's a really disappointing spell compared to See Invisibility, since Transmutation spells are pretty rare (and weak and not worth the spell slot), and Illusion spells can be counteracted with a simple Perception check, which everyone and anyone can do.
I'll take the automatic concealed effect of See Invisibility compared to a bad roll nullifying an entire high level True Seeing spell slot. Plus, See Invisibility can last for longer with heightening, whereas True Seeing just...doesn't.
Welcome to spell balance, I guess?
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Yeah, True Seeing isn't anywhere near as strong or cool as it used to beand Illusion spells can be counteracted with a simple Perception check, which everyone and anyone can do.
Anyone CAN do it, but they have to actually announce they are doing it (in exploration mode) and spend actions to do it (in encounter mode.) There's a pretty big gap between that and getting a passive effect.
I'll take the automatic concealed effect of See Invisibility compared to a bad roll nullifying an entire high level True Seeing spell slot.
This is a weird example when you consider that most Invisibility spells are going to be cast at 5th level or lower, which means that True Seeing will see through them on anything but a critical failure. Also, See Invisibility leaves the creature concealed. So most of the time you're better off with a True Seeing, barring some corner cases like Natural Invisibility, and get insulation from other illusions as well.
It is a higher level spell slot, but it is also a much stronger effect.
Yeah, True Seeing isn't anywhere near as strong or cool as it used to beand Illusion spells can be counteracted with a simple Perception check, which everyone and anyone can do.Anyone CAN do it, but they have to actually announce they are doing it (in exploration mode) and spend actions to do it (in encounter mode.) There's a pretty big gap between that and getting a passive effect.
I'll take the automatic concealed effect of See Invisibility compared to a bad roll nullifying an entire high level True Seeing spell slot.This is a weird example when you consider that most Invisibility spells are going to be cast at 5th level or lower, which means that True Seeing will see through them on anything but a critical failure. Also, See Invisibility leaves the creature concealed. So most of the time you're better off with a True Seeing, barring some corner cases like Natural Invisibility, and get insulation from other illusions as well.
It is a higher level spell slot, but it is also a much stronger effect.
But since the entire party has to get in on that action, having one character with True Seeing doesn't help unless they also follow up with something like Glitterdust/Faerie Fire, which isn't a guarantee. It's worth the action investment IMO, because what else are you doing with your actions other than sitting there doing, you know, nothing, because that's all you're doing otherwise? And it being passive isn't anything beneficial to it compared to See Invisibility, which is also equally passive.
Most ones cast by actual spellcasters, yes. But those are usually the easiest to prepare against with Dispel Magic and the like. But against creatures like this who can do it at-will with a higher level than normal, and/or ignore the whole magical aspect of it? It's trash. Against demons who can go invisible at like 6th+ level, and ghosts who don't use magic at all, it does basically nothing, whereas in 1st edition, it worked regardless of level and regardless of type of effect it is.
It's not the only spell in this edition to get nerfed that way. Freedom of Movement is equally trash in the exact opposite way. Against normal grab effects? Super powerful. Against anything magical? Gets trounced by on-level or better powers. And even on effects which immobilize you without grabbing, it doesn't do anything because it only affects movement value, not the ability to move or not. It's broken, and it sucks. Same as True Seeing.
I completely forgot about See Invisibility when I made my post, sorry about that.
See Invisibility should be the spell to go in this particular case.
Thank you!