Hello all!
Does Two Weapon Fighting Feat work with Light Crossbows?
Thanks!
In what respect are you asking? Do you mean can you fire two Light Crossbows in a single round using 2WF? Probably but you won't be able to load and fire in the same round. Do you mean can you fire one Light Crossbow and wield a melee weapon in the other hand? Probably, but again you run into the problem of loading the crossbow in the next round. So I ask in what respect are you asking about?
Does Two Weapon Fighting Feat work with Light Crossbows?
Crossbow, Light: "Normally, operating a light crossbow requires two hands. However, you can shoot, but not load, a light crossbow with one hand at a –2 penalty on attack rolls. You can shoot a light crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons. This penalty is cumulative with the penalty for one-handed firing."
Using two light crossbows, you have a main hand TWF penalty of -4, and an off-hand TWF penalty of -8. Including the one-handed crossbow penalty, that comes out to -6/-10.
The Two-Weapon Fighting feat reduces the penalties for TWF. Since the crossbows are light weapons, the TWF penalties are -2/-2 for a total penalty (including the one-handed crossbow penalty) of -4/-4.
That's what I was thinking Grick but I wanted other people's opinion. So with taking Rapid Reload Feat and Two Weapon Fighting you should be able to fire two light crossbow every round I would think with fairly light penalties.
Add in rapid shot and you get a third attack assuming you are doing nothing but attacking.
Even with rapid reload, you won't be able to fire every round, because while you can fire them 1-handed, you must use 2 hands to reload a crossbow. So unless you have a 3rd arm or can come up with some way to have a free hand that doesn't cost actions, you won't be able to do this. Incidentally, if you do try to pursue this further consider using hand crossbows, which are intended to be fired with 1 hand and thus avoid that -2 penalty. Note however that they still require 2 hands to reload, so you still need to solve that problem.
so the first round of a combat you can fire three then drop one and have two attacks a round
I don't believe so. You still need two hands to load even a onehand crossbow. So you would not be able to shoot two crossbows every round. also how do you get three attacks a round on the first when drawing is a move action.
As an opinion if I were your GM I would disallow this just on principle. I might consider if you were using a repeating crossbow allowing three attacks a round but not otherwise.
What about this:
The idea here is you have two light crossbows ready to fire at the beginning of the combat. You take a full attack action to fire both crossbows. Drop one crossbow (free action). Rapid reload makes reloading a free action and rapid shot gives an extra attack if taking a full attack action. 3 attacks in the first round and 2 attacks in each following round.
Vestigial arm is the answer. You have a free reloading arm. Problem solved.
EDIT: ALthough it would be nice for there to be a way to make a twf crossbow user who isn't a freakshow.
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If both your crossbows are on weapon cords, then this almost becomes viable since you can drop one crossbow to load the other, then pick up the dropped one as a free action. It still won't let you full attack every round, but it will help. Others have gone into further detail elsewhere on the boards.
Depending how you order attacks (all attacks with one hand, then all with the other instead of by BAB) You can just use weapon cords.
Drop one x-bow, Take all your attacks with the main hand, drop it, draw the other (swift action) then take all your remaining attacks.
Gunslingers do this all the time. Come to think of it, since you have a hand free to reload, you can just fire the x-bows two-handed to avoid the penalty.
If you were a Vanaras I don't see why your tail couldn't hold one of the cross bows as you reload the other. This could make gunslinger work dual wielding as well.
Hmm, I could be on to something.
Could you do the same thing with Great Swords?
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Could you do the same thing with Great Swords?
No you cannot.
Prehensile Tail: A vanara has a long, flexible tail that she can use to carry objects. She cannot wield weapons with her tail, but the tail allows her to retrieve a small, stowed object carried on her person as a swift action.
The point of the tail is for it to hold a cross bow or pistol so you have a free hand to actually reload. Switching "hands" is a free action i believe so you could essentially juggle the weapons for reloading. It doesn't say you can't hold a great sword in your tail (though I would assume not since its so big) what good would it do you? It does say you cannot wield it, ie you cannot make attacks with it while it is in your tail.
Could you do the same thing with Great Swords?
No you cannot.
The point of the tail is for it to hold a cross bow or pistol so you have a free hand to actually reload. Switching "hands" is a free action i believe so you could essentially juggle the weapons for reloading. It doesn't say you can't hold a great sword in your tail (though I would assume not since its so big) what good would it do you? It does say you cannot wield it, ie you cannot make attacks with it while it is in your tail.
Prehensile Tail: A vanara has a long, flexible tail that she can use to carry objects. She cannot wield weapons with her tail, but the tail allows her to retrieve a small, stowed object carried on her person as a swift action.
You can't wield the sword with your tail, but you can hold your secondary sword while making your attacks with your primary one and juggle them to effectively TWF, similar to holding a secondary crossbow or pistol.
Vestigial arm is the answer. You have a free reloading arm. Problem solved.
EDIT: ALthough it would be nice for there to be a way to make a twf crossbow user who isn't a freakshow.
There is Reloading Hands. Make a deal with the spell caster in the group, UMD, custom item with x times per day, etc.
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Hmm.
Multiple Weapons, Iterative Attacks, and Two-Weapon Fighting (page 202): If I have iterative attacks from a high BAB, can I make attacks with different weapons and not incur a two-weapon fighting penalty?
Yes. Basically, you only incur TWF penalties if you are trying to get an extra attack per round.
Let's assume you're a 6th-level fighter (BAB +6/+1) holding a longsword in one hand and a light mace in the other. Your possible full attack combinations without using two-weapon fighting are:
(A) longsword at +6, longsword +1
(B) mace +6, mace +1
(C) longsword +6, mace +1
(D) mace +6, longsword +1
All of these combinations result in you making exactly two attacks, one at +6 and one at +1. You're not getting any extra attacks, therefore you're not using the two-weapon fighting rule, and therefore you're not taking any two-weapon fighting penalties.
If you have Quick Draw, you could even start the round wielding only one weapon, make your main attack with it, draw the second weapon as a free action after your first attack, and use that second weapon to make your iterative attack. As long as you're properly using the BAB values for your iterative attacks, and as long as you're not exceeding the number of attacks per round granted by your BAB, you are not considered to be using two-weapon fighting, and therefore do not take any of the penalties for two-weapon fighting.
The two-weapon fighting option in the Core Rulebook specifically refers to getting an extra attack for using a second weapon in your offhand. In the above four examples, there is no extra attack, therefore you're not using two-weapon fighting.
Using the longsword/mace example, if you use two-weapon fighting you actually have fewer options than if you aren't. Your options are (ignoring the primary/off hand penalties):
(A') primary longsword at +6, primary longsword at +1, off hand mace at +6
(B') primary mace at +6, primary mace at +1, off hand longsword at +6
In other words, once you decide you're using two-weapon fighting to get that extra attack on your turn (which you have to decide before you take any attacks on your turn), that decision locks you in to the format of "my primary weapon gets my main attack and my iterative attack, and my off hand weapon only gets the extra attack, and I apply two-weapon fighting penalties."—Sean K Reynolds, 11/04/11
So you can dual wield crossbows without TWF penalties if you just want to use your iterative attacks with them.
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Makes the spell "abundant ammunition" worthwhile.
Indeed: 2 light repeating crossbows.
Cast abundant ammunition on the magazines. Would be useful in a wand (worst case), in a ring(better), or (if GM permits) as a permanent enchant (Awesome) on the magazines. 4th level or higher ranger can cast it pre-combat, but it would take him two rounds to prepare for a fight. Ranger-made wands would be CL4 minimum.TWF to your heart's content. Should also be combinable with the rapid shot feats for maximum shooting.
You could get 4 extra attacks from feats (1 extra primary, 3 extra secondary), and (depending on how your GM reads the mechanics), either one more of each or one more primary from the Speed enhancement, for a potential total of 11 attacks per round as a full-BAB level 20 character.
Downside: A douchey GM could rule that no ranged weapons are light weapons (including the light crossbow) and give you a bunch of extra penalties.
This actually sounds like a pretty entertaining character idea. I just might have to build it.
2 light repeating crossbows.
Cast abundant ammunition on the magazines.
There's a thread here on whether the repeating crossbow actually contains a case, which can be replenished, granting unlimited free action reloading, or whether the crossbow itself holds the bolts, and "Loading a new case of 5 bolts" means loading a cases worth of bolts into the crossbow.
Downside: A douchey GM could rule that no ranged weapons are light weapons (including the light crossbow) and give you a bunch of extra penalties.Crossbow, Repeating: "You can fire a repeating crossbow with one hand or fire a repeating crossbow in each hand in the same manner as you would a normal crossbow of the same size."
Crossbow, Light: "You can shoot a light crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons."
Crossbow, Heavy: "You can shoot a heavy crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two one-handed weapons."
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Using two light crossbows, you have a main hand TWF penalty of -4, and an off-hand TWF penalty of -8. Including the one-handed crossbow penalty, that comes out to -6/-10.
The Two-Weapon Fighting feat reduces the penalties for TWF. Since the crossbows are light weapons, the TWF penalties are -2/-2 for a total penalty (including the one-handed crossbow penalty) of -4/-4.
It's worth noting that if you don't have the TWF Feat, and you don't want the extra attack, you only take the -2 for firing it one-handed, and not the -6, -10.
It goes without saying that you should have a heavy crossbow be your main-attack.
At level 10, wielding (or dual wielding) crossbows could get you:
p: Primary
o: Off-Hand
a: Either Primary or Off-Hand, as desired.
*: Depends on which interpretation of Speed enchantment is used.
- 2 Iterative Attacks: -2a, -2a;
- 2 Iterative Attacks, 1 Rapidshot Attack (With Feat): -4a, -4a, -4a;
- 2 Iterative Attacks, 1 Rapidshot Attack (With Feat), 1 Speed enchantment: -4a, -4a, -4a, -4a;
- *2 Iterative Attacks, 1 Rapidshot Attack (With Feat), 1 Speed enchantment, 1 Speed enchantment: -4a, -4a, -4a, -4p, -4o;
- 2 Iterative Attacks, 1 TWF Attack (Without Feat): -6p,-6p,-10o;
- 2 Iterative Attacks, 1 TWF Attack (With Feat): -4p, -4p, -4o;
- 2 Iterative Attacks, 1 Rapidshot Attack (With Feat), 1 TWF Attack (With Feat): -6p, -6p, -6p, -6o.
- 2 Iterative Attacks, 1 Rapidshot Attack (With Feat), 1 Speed enchantment, 1 TWF Attack (With Feat): -6p, -6p, -6p, -6p, -6o.
- *2 Iterative Attacks, 1 Rapidshot Attack (With Feat), 1 Speed enchantment, 1 TWF Attack (With Feat), 1 Speed Enchantment: -6p, -6p, -6p, -6p, -6o, -6o.
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There's a thread here on whether the repeating crossbow actually contains a case, which can be replenished, granting unlimited free action reloading, or whether the crossbow itself holds the bolts, and "Loading a new case of 5 bolts" means loading a cases worth of bolts into the crossbow.
Interesting.
Images & historical images indicate magazines, but I didn't see a Dev Ruling.
Abundant Ammunition could potentially be cast on the crossbow even if the devs come in and say the one in the book has an internal magazine, and its part of the crossbow.