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Mechanically my favorite class is the sorcerer because of blood magic, some bloodlines has cool and very useful effects and I can pick my spell list.
Flavor wise however I'd say that my favorite is the bard as it can fill a lot of roles and now has full up to Lv.10 spells unlike in 1e
But anyways, which is your favorite?
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I am basic, Cleric and Wizard.
Cleric mostly for theme reasons and I like to think about builds focused in the deity, like a Nature Cleric with Beastmaster and Herbalist for Gozreh.
And Wizard because I really like the thesis, most of them change the way that you think about your spellslots and how you prepare them, either by having access to your entire spellbook all day, from sacrificing lower level slots for more higher level ones or gaining a more "spontaneous" casting using the staff.
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Mechanically my favorite class is the sorcerer because of blood magic, some bloodlines has cool and very useful effects and I can pick my spell list.
Flavor wise however I'd say that my favorite is the bard as it can fill a lot of roles and now has full up to Lv.10 spells unlike in 1e
But anyways, which is your favorite?
Sorcerer is definitely one of the most min-max'y spellcasters out there. Aside from buffing and healing, if you build toward a certain niche, you will outclass everyone. It also has some strong and useful focus spells and feat synergies in the game. Take Fire Elemental bloodline and Dangerous Sorcery, and you're the best blaster in the game, with the versatility of healing thrown into the mix as well.
Mechanically, Bard is still the best because of access to best spell list and having best focus spells and cantrips and proficiencies in the game. It puts most every other spellcasting class to shame with Inspire Courage, and Dirge of Doom, plus Lingering Performance, Inspire Heroics, Harmonize, and Synesthesia, and your party will stomp Level + 4 encounter bossed without problem.
I really enjoy spontaneous casting this edition, it feels really powerful, especially with the overall changes to spellcasting in PF2 making specific spell selection a lot more valuable (although I'm not a huge fan of most of the spontaneous casters we actually have in PF2).
Sorcerer and Witch kinda frustrate me though because a lot of times the concept I have for a spell list and the concept I have for abilities don't line up and those two classes prepackage the whole kit. Occult sorcerer is a fun concept but if you aren't interested in shadows, hags or aberrations though luck. Still, Sorcerer is one of my favorite classes right now.
Bards are probably stronger, but they're also one of the most boring things in the game to play, their One Cool Trick is so blatantly powerful that you pretty much just play the exact same character every time. I've played two and seen at least one of every muse and a handful more at various tables... and they've all been the exact same character. The class is, honestly, almost a complete disaster imo.
Druid probably also up there as one of my favorites. Primal is reasonably flexible and makes for a fun aggressive caster, plus they've got some decent internal options. Wild Shape can practically carry an entire character concept on its own. I wish more casters had focus spells like that, tbh.
I tend to prefer stepping out of line with my caster characters (which often means making them more martial lol). I feel Oracle has the most "ooh, how do I make this work?" potential of all the casters, the different curses make for some pretty diverse characters. Someday I'll find an opportunity to put an Ancestors Oracle into action...
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I love clerics the most. they're vastly different depending on the deity.
Paizo did a great job with caster classes, I love almost all of them for different reasons.
Wizard, of course, is my all-time favorite, I even made a handbook for them.
Sorcerers have a lot of versatility and can be really powerful with the right bloodlines (AOE-friendly blind comes to mind...). Like someone said, it's a shame that the occult bloodlines are pretty underwhelming. Also, they're the best at poaching good spells from other lists.
Divine Font makes Cleric very interesting to play. It's an elegant solution to in-combat healing, and the versatility of the healing spell in itself makes them pretty great. One of my favorite characters was a priest of Nethys with selective channel and directed channel. Also, you can get awesome spells from some deities.
Oracles are incredibly flavorful and some mysteries are actually crazy powerful (flames has an insane drawback, but is incredible against anything not fire-immune). I also love ancestry for the sheer roleplaying potential, and cosmos is the go-to mystery for those who want a manageable handicap.
Bards are one of the most powerful classes in the game, but they're also the most boring to play IMO. They have the best spell (Synesthesia), the best cantrips and all fights look kind of the same to me.
Druids are pretty strong overall. I didn't play one so I'm not an expert, but looks to me you're either a caster first or a shapeshifter first, it's a bit harder to play as a switch-hitter. But they have great focus spells and the primal list is powerful in its own right.
Witch is by far the worst for me. It's the weakest casting class, its focus spells and hexes were supposed to compensate but they're just bad, and its mechanism is all over the place. It really deserves a revamp.
I'm personally a great fan of both Sorcerers and Oracles. I find them really flavorful with lots of nice abilities.
Wizard will be my close third one.
I dislike Bards and healing font Clerics. I find them too similar in general.
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I would say Sorcerer. Just wish they defaulted "low hit points" to 8 for the Wizard/Witch/Sorcerer since from a balance standpoint I don't really think having access to the arcane list is a huge boon like the other editions. I feel every tradition is super good.
I just feel the bloodlines are such a cool mechanic overall. They are super thematic and just cool in general. Also I am a huge fan of spontaneous casters vs prepared. Pretty much in every editions.
Ones I played: Druid, Bard, Sorcerer
One I haven't played: Oracle, Cleric, Wizard, Witch.
I love pretty much all the classes. Cleric is probably the only one not on my list of "to play".
I admit even though in every edition I avoid divine casters 100% the Oracle just oozes with flavor imo. My PFS character is a Sorcerer level 4 but I would have went Oracle but I didn't really know much about them until it was too late.
Ancient Oracle just sounds too fun.
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I see, I see :)
Most people seems to like sorcerer as well, I have to add that Oracle is really amazing for it's flavor, my favorite will always be the Battle one despite not being as potentially powerful as Flames, I still favor the sorcerer thought x.x
Oddly enough many people see the bard as boring and that... May be true, not gonna lie, many builds are really similar but I hope the warrior muse will change that, playing a Gish is always fun for me but then again The Magus is already on it's way.
Druid has been my favorite casting class. Versatile, powerful, and fun to play and build.
I am playing a sorcerer right now. He's proving to be very weak as expected, but we'll see if he gets better as he gets more focus spells and the build I'm trying to develops. I definitely like to build sorcerers more than other caster classes. They have a lot of build options that make for interesting backgrounds.
I love the wizard in PF2 and desperately want to play one, but every game I've joined already had someone lined up to play one. The Oracle looks like a lot of fun, our last AoA game had us bite off more than we can chew and we had to end early but it looks like My cleric and the Champion are going to give their lives to help the wizard and the rogue escape. If that proves to be the case I am leaning towards an oracle if I still need to pull the party healing duties.
Druids look fun, but I struggle to enjoy a 2/3 spells a day class with prepared casting. I get that it is all about your focus powers, but you just don't get enough slots, especially if your party is expecting you to pick up healing duty. The Bard ends up in the same boat as the druid only worse if they are expected to be a healer, because their healing spell is stuck at 2 actions and you don't get the bonus you do with the 2 action healing to make lower level slots adequate for healing a single target.
I have yet to really figure out the witch. It feels like it will have the same problems as druid and the bard combined with less exciting stuff to make up for it unless you really find the right cantrip hex. The pretty desperately need more patrons before it will have any appeal to me.
I see, I see :)
Most people seems to like sorcerer as well, I have to add that Oracle is really amazing for it's flavor, my favorite will always be the Battle one despite not being as potentially powerful as Flames, I still favor the sorcerer thought x.x
Oddly enough many people see the bard as boring and that... May be true, not gonna lie, many builds are really similar but I hope the warrior muse will change that, playing a Gish is always fun for me but then again The Magus is already on it's way.
Sorcerer has both good chassis and good flavor. Being able to make a Dragon Disciple (Frost) Kobold with Elemental (Fire) Bloodline, creating a "Prismatic Draconic Sorcerer" of sorts is very, very awesome, flexible, and strong. Between blasting spells, flexible breath weapons and spell slots, multiple resistances, and almost flawless flavor meshing, it's probably a character that I am looking most forward to play, even in front of the Dhampir Tyrant (or Desecrator, depending on if I want to lean into that full tank paradigm), who was going to be the son of a great Vampire Noble who seduced an Elven Queen for political gain.
Oracle flavor isn't bad, but I really dislike the fact you're actively punished for doing your schtick in PF2, and some of the curses handle them worse than others. The Ancestor Oracle is a bit of an everyman, but it really does not support being able to repeat the same action over and over again, and some of the moderate/major benefits are just not worth it. Compared to PF1, where you paid from your curse in one manner, which gave other secondary benefits, plus a Mystery that you could pull special powers from to aid in your primary benefits instead. To me, that's the biggest thing PF2 Oracle is missing the mark on.
I do agree that the Bard is pretty uniform in terms of build, but that's because a lot of the other builds just do not compare to the raw power the "one true build" possesses, and plus a lot of those tools are available regardless of build. Outside of the initial Muse benefits, like Lingering Performance, they aren't build exclusive, and even then it can be made up with a class feat expenditure, which the Bard can spare a couple, since some of their feats really do suck at certain levels. Literally any Bard build can have Inspire Courage, Dirge of Doom, Harmonize, and Synesthesia, and most do because they're just so strong, plus the Bard isn't losing or changing any identity from not taking these outside of just raw power.
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I don't think I have a favorite. They are all good at and can do different things. I tend to focus on finding the strengths of the classes and build mechanics off of that.
I have built a 'champion' of Nethys that is a wizard dedicating into champion. At level 8, he is a full spellcaster with an AC of 27 and 89 HP. He is a phenomenal gish.
I have built a healer cleric of Pharasma. I dipped dedication into witch to get the focus spell life boost. With that plus highest level spirit link s, he capitalizes on heal-over-time. So much so that my heal spells are only really needed for when my allies get crit (and sometimes not even then, thanks to me stacking both of the first two on one person). The curious thing is that the HoT spells tick at different points in the round. Life Boost, on their turn; and Spirit Link on my turn.
Lastly, I have built a Kobold flames oracle. His action economy is less impressive but he can use his breath weapon after putting up his aura to light multiple enemies on fire.
I would caution folks away from going into character creation with "I want X concept to use Y class" without looking at what the class can do. Do you want to play a war priest? The warpriest might not be the ideal class for that, oddly enough. Above all look at your options!
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I am very surprised people dislike Bards. They are very versatile IMO. After playing I realize you just need lingering composition+favorite composition and you are free to do whatever you want with the class. They make great support gish characters.
Admittingly I was a little disappointed in the enigma/polymath base features for combat but they do have some fun feats. Enigma it is just hard for a Bard to fit INT in a build.
Warrior is good as the commanding allies, which sounds super fun. Sadly for gish characters I feel Maestro is better.
Overall I feel PF2 class/archetypes makes every character super interesting so I really can see myself making every class which is something I could never say in PF1/5e.
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I would probably say Oracle because the Curses/Mysteries make me really excited to build for that class.
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Conceptually, I like oracles the most. Linking the curses to the powers is a good change. But I wish both the curse and the powers were stronger.
It should be like, "that weirdo can tell you the future, but he poops out of his mouth," not "that fine gentleman has a focus spell that does 1d4 damage but has a 15% miss chance when he uses it."
Mechanically, the cloistered cleric heal-bot and the inspire-and-cast-from-afar bard are probably the best, but I don't find either of them compelling as characters.
I think my favorite so far is a divine sorcerer. The first few levels are kind of boring, though (see "healbot", above). Storm druid and warpriest come in second.
Wizard and witch are at the bottom for me, but I may be building them so poorly they detract from the enjoyment. I should probably read one of those guide things so I know whether it's me or the class.
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Love
Cleric
Druid
Sorcerer
Kinda cool
Oracle
Don't care
Bard
Witch
Wizard
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I like the wizard a good bit, but I think to enjoy it you have to really enjoy spells. All of the theses aside from Familiar are related to altering your spellcasting in some way. I also think they're some of the best utility casters in the game, between prepared casting, arcane list, and most slots.
This is from GMing for one, the campaign I was supposed to play one was put on hold.
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I'm not seeing too much love for the Wizard... I admit that at low levels they're a little boring but at high levels they're stupidly good o.o
I've played a Wizard for an AoA AP until 13th level, and we are about to hit 14th level next session. In my experience, I've found that having the system mastery and spell spread capability you want makes all the difference in determining how strong or how weak your Wizard is. While this is true for every class in general, it's paramount for a Wizard compared to every other class. If you put someone who hasn't really played this genre of game before into a Wizard class, they will probably suffer unless they do their research or quickly identify what they need to do for their party. But I can say that there have been some moments where being a Wizard was satisfying.
If you have a spell selection where half or most of your spells are ineffective, your Wizard will be more of a liability to the party than a help. If you have a passing or strong spell selection for the encounter or obstacle at hand, you will be a major contributor to the party.
The big thing is being able to cover all sorts of situations, as that is the Wizard's greatest strength. It's not unlike being Batman, who has a gadget or tool for every situation ever, it's just instead of gadgets, it's spells, with your spellbook being your utility belt.
I've ran pure utility spells and I haven't been able to contribute extremely well in combat aside from cantrips, though in some obstacles I've been able to overcome them with just my spells. Running pure damage spells (since my party has whined about me not using enough higher level damage spell slots for combats), I've found situations where not having a battlefield control spell hampered the party's ambitions significantly, and in this latest case, I couldn't use too many damage spells due to their friendly fire capabilities. (Damaging innocents would rub too many people the wrong way in this case.) Finding that middle ground is where you will be able to help out the party the most.
Are there some things I wish the Wizard could be better at? Absolutely. Their school focus powers could be much, much better. Their class feats could cover more than what they currently do (though this can improve with hardcover rulebook publications, maybe the Secrets of Magic rulebook will help with this), since it seems Sorcerers get better class feats than Wizards do. But I will say that a skilled player will make a Wizard look not so useless or helpless, and hold their own against credible threats.
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I agree 100% with you @Darksol, that's pretty much why the spell substitution thesis is my favorite, I prepare some hazards/debuffs and if I need a toolbox Spell I use spell substitution if the party isn't in a rush, 10 minutes is doable during exploration mode.
To be honest I didn't like it in 1e but the 2e wizard is really good, not as fun as a sorcerer or mechanically op as the bard but still a force to be reckoned n.n
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I think Wizard is a very strong class after ~level 5, in the hands of a player who knows what they're doing. Both spellsub and spellblend can put in some serious work.
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I haven't tried Spell Bending but sounds Hella powerful once you has level 6+ spells.
As for the Witch I'm hoping to play one soon so I can give an actual opinion, so far the familiar and the hex cantrips okay and picking your spell list too, it's like the hybrid of wizard and sorcerer with a bard streak but missing most class defining features like thesis, blood magic and muses exclusive feats.
I think Wizard is a very strong class after ~level 5, in the hands of a player who knows what they're doing. Both spellsub and spellblend can put in some serious work.
I havent played a Wizard yet but they really look really bad at the low levels compared to every class which I feel is where the dislike comes from. Most of the thesis take quite awhile before they even do much of anything.
I do feel it would be super fun to play a level 10+ Wizard at the same time every other class would feel fun too.
Also imo Pathfinder 2e intellect as a stat depends how your GM handles recall knowledge to be good otherwise WIS/CHA are just always good for fun skill. Who doesnt love demoralizing or using bon mot in between casting.
I think Wizard is a very strong class after ~level 5, in the hands of a player who knows what they're doing. Both spellsub and spellblend can put in some serious work.I havent played a Wizard yet but they really look really bad at the low levels compared to every class which I feel is where the dislike comes from. Most of the thesis take quite awhile before they even do much of anything.
I do feel it would be super fun to play a level 10+ Wizard at the same time every other class would feel fun too.
Also imo Pathfinder 2e intellect as a stat depends how your GM handles recall knowledge to be good otherwise WIS/CHA are just always good for fun skill. Who doesnt love demoralizing or using bon mot in between casting.
I think the time it takes for wizards (and sometimes casters in general) to get "good" is somewhat overblown. In my experience, level 5 is the big breakpoint rather than the commonly cited 7. Mind, level 5 is still not early - it's a 1/4th into a 1-20 character's career and for a lot of players it's going to be their entire career or half of it.
(I'm making large generalizations here, and it's a lot more complicated than casters being bad early on in my experience. Spells like Magic Weapon are big complications)
Wizard by far but only in the right context.
To be able to enjoy this class (master of utility, flexibility and social sstrategy) you need 3 things.
- A good scouter to get information and plan ahead. A party that likes an slow play style and non combat ways to solve situations.
- A good master that is expert in the game, with a lof of experience to DM around the amazing things you can do.
- Experience as a players, deep knowledge about rules and understand that you don't play wizard to destroy combats, that's not your role.
- Experience as a players, deep knowledge about rules and understand that you don't play wizard to destroy combats, that's not your role.
Tell that to my players haha. I've seen plenty of combats "destroyed" with a well-timed Hideous Laughter.
Witch is my personal favorite.
but that's mostly because i enjoy hexes.
If i were to go by actual efficiency and power, Bard and Druid are probably the strongest casters i've seen in play.
It is really cool to see that the witch provided you the caster that had the flavorful all day abilities that you were wanting from the wizard at launch in exchange for less spells per day, which I know you felt like was a less valuable commodity that some of us do.
With the Magus coming out and being certain to be the best gish class as far a having strong martial proficiencies and the highest level spell slots, and the summoner coming out for the most dangerous pet with similar high level but limited casting abilities, it really is starting to feel like there is a caster for everyone. I know that there will be a strong call for the occult adventures classes and an aggressive self-buffing inquisitor type divine gish is something that most folks will want to see, so there is still room for growth, but a year and a half into the new system, it does feel like the breadth of character options is impressive and pretty evenly balanced.
The Ancestor Oracle looks like it could be the most fun and frustrating character to play. I imagine trying to step in to melee combat, only to have Grandpa start whispering the finer points of woodworking in your ear.
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I'm gonna leave out Magus and Summoner since they aren't out yet, but my faves so far are bard, oracle, and wizard
I love playing buffers, and I love using social and knowledge skills, so bard is kind of a no brainer for me. It's just so dang good at its job, and the occult list has most of my favorite types of spells to use
Oracle is on here because I really like the "power at a price" concept, and while both witches and oracles both have "can use a lot of focus spells" as their shtick, imo the oracle revelation spells are much more interesting in terms of effects. Fingers crossed we get a dream themed mystery that grants some illusion capabilities so I can play the dream weaving desnan priest(ess) I've been dreaming of (heh heh) for a while now!
Wizard is just such a flexible class that allows for so much customization. Staff Nexus and Spell Blending are both really cool imo. The schools are likewise also pretty cool (although some very much more powerful than others), on the whole, though transmutation is pretty lacking on the arcane list. I also like playing a magical science nerd.
If we count alchemist as a caster, I'd also through them here. They definitely aren't the strongest class, but I've never ran into a situation where I couldn't do anything meaningful, and that's a huge plus to me. In my current campaign, my alchemist is almost as good as the investigator at knowledge skills, and almost as good as the rogue at thieving and sneaking, and I'm actually better than both at social skills thanks to juggling mutagen boosts. Sure, they all have drawbacks and aren't permanent, but being able to shift gears and be the second best, or actual best, in every skill that's not athletics is a nice feeling
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Haven't considered Alchemist, to be honest I was disappointed to see that extracts are now items instead of a form of spellcasting, they aren't bad, they're actually pretty good but I still can't get over the 1e alchemist x.x
I've saw Persistent and splash damage in action and are more impressive than what I expected, that being said I haven't played alchemist yet.
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The Ancestor Oracle looks like it could be the most fun and frustrating character to play. I imagine trying to step in to melee combat, only to have Grandpa start whispering the finer points of woodworking in your ear.
I reskinned my "ancestor" oracle as a contestant on a reality show where the producers tell him crazy things to do. Thematically, it's a very fun curse and I try very hard to have him follow the "suggestions".
It sucks that there's such a high chance of succeeding when disobeying the ancestors. Less independent thought, more YOLO!
Haven't considered Alchemist, to be honest I was disappointed to see that extracts are now items instead of a form of spellcasting, they aren't bad, they're actually pretty good but I still can't get over the 1e alchemist x.x
I've saw Persistent and splash damage in action and are more impressive than what I expected, that being said I haven't played alchemist yet.
Man, the 1e alchemist was amazing and had some truly unholy tricks it could do. The mighty sure did fall in 2e, but it's kinda the same for all casters and "casters"
One stealth boon I think a lot of people overlook is bonus stacking. My level 3 alchemist can get +6 on impersonate checks with her hat of disguise and a silvertongue mutagen, which is crazy good, and it doesn't even eat up a ton of resources. For the most part, spells provide status bonuses, and only rarely provide item bonuses (I'm pretty sure it's just magic weapon/fang), so the alchemist buff and the magic buff will (almost) always stack.
I'm a little hesitant to really call them a caster though, but I cant really call them a martial either. It's honestly a really swingy class; in the last session I played, I basically melted a boss creatures whole hp bar with one blight bomb over the course of 3 turns thanks to a crit, but, like, if the stuff I use my resources on fall flat, I'm a somewhat beefier sorcerer with a crossbow
Ohhh so the Bard everyone speaks of is the Inspire courage and cast spells from range Bard. Ahh I've never played that Bard I didn't know it was the best, I always thought mine was best tbh. I've always played a Melee Bard with a whip in hand Aid'ing my allies, a +4 bonus at level 9 to Aid checks seems fine to me, along with being able to cast a spell and still have an action left to Trip that round.
Ohhh so the Bard everyone speaks of is the Inspire courage and cast spells from range Bard. Ahh I've never played that Bard I didn't know it was the best, I always thought mine was best tbh. I've always played a Melee Bard with a whip in hand Aid'ing my allies, a +4 bonus at level 9 to Aid checks seems fine to me, along with being able to cast a spell and still have an action left to Trip that round.
Well after playing a Bard from level 5-8 I feel Maestro Bard shines the most for fun factor and Warrior has potential too for combat. Enigma/Polymath pretty much add nothing to combat though for fun factor.
To be a "good" Bard you pretty much just have to have a composition going at all times and the rest of your actions can be anything. The demoralize+trip+composition combination is amazing if you time it with your allies.
Out of curiosity were you using DEX to trip when you played? This was cleared up in the errata to use STR and the "trip Bard" was one of the reason I was thinking they cleared it up. Casters using Whips with DEX trips just felt too good to me. Even casters using STR to trip feels greats to me.
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I am delighted that so many people like Oracle. But why is there no Guide to the Oracle?
I would like to try an Orc Oracle of Life for PFS (maybe with Living Monolith dedication) and I do not know if it is doomed to failure and what would be good ways to build it to be interesting :-/
Flavor-wise, Sorcerers would be the closest to my ideal spellcaster (if they didn't rely on artificial vocalization + elaborate limbs to use magic, that would have been my real ideal), as they have no risk of losing their powers by some meddling from higher powers or such lore-wise.
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My first try at the bard was a melee build with a rapier and fighter dedication, but that was some time ago, we now have more archetypes and the warrior muse and thus more potential for making a competent gish out of the bard, swashbuckler, fencer, sentinel and two weapons warrior dedications are really nice.
I guess is because oracle is still fairly new and every mystery plays very different from the others so making a guide of it all should be a difficult task, or so I think...
Prepared casters are very good in 2e because of upcasting, sure signature spells make spontaneous casters functional but learning charm just once is really good in comparison to 1e where I had to learn, charm person, charm monster and so on.
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I am delighted that so many people like Oracle. But why is there no Guide to the Oracle?
I would like to try an Orc Oracle of Life for PFS (maybe with Living Monolith dedication) and I do not know if it is doomed to failure and what would be good ways to build it to be interesting :-/
There's no guide to Monk that isn't part of RPGBot's series, either. I'd like to write one, because clearly playing 2-3 sessions' worth of Lv 5 Monk (and reading way way more PF2 talk and material than is healthy) qualifies me, but I'll need to be done with this year's schoolwork to start. So, hopefully by the end of the year week. And hopefully someone takes up the challenge of Oracle too!
What's bad with RPGBot?
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I am delighted that so many people like Oracle. But why is there no Guide to the Oracle?
I would like to try an Orc Oracle of Life for PFS (maybe with Living Monolith dedication) and I do not know if it is doomed to failure and what would be good ways to build it to be interesting :-/
Tbh, there's a lack of guides for a lot of apg content. That combo seems pretty interesting though, and at least at first blush, the "way harder to kill you" aspect seems like it would mesh well to offset some of the downsides of the life curse