Ricochet Shot (spell) and thieves

[harbqll]

So, let's say we have a thief in the party who likes to hide/stealth in available terrain, and then snipe with his crossbow to score his bonus sneak damage.

And let's say there's a mage in the party who also likes to hide outside of combat, and who could cast Ricochet Shot on the thief (or who could brew a potion of Ricochet Shot which the thief could use at need).

Would our sneaky thief get his bonus sneak damage on both the primary and secondary/ricochet targets?

Or...

Let's say instead the mage created a Wand of Magic Missiles for the thief. Would he get sneak damage using the wand instead of the crossbow? And if so, could he fire one magic missile at each of several targets and get sneak damage against each?

And...

The Ricochet Shot spell description does not specify an arrow, bolt, or bullet. All it says is "projectile weapon". A Wand of Magic Missiles is a weapon which fires projectiles. So in theory, our (10th level, for this example) thief could fire his Wand from stealth at 5 different targets, hit all 5 with no to-hit roll needed and no saving throw, doing d4+1 +5d6 stealth damage to each target, and then Ricochet all five missiles to each hit another five targets, again doing d4+1 +5d6 damage.

[Belafon]

harbqll wrote:

So, let's say we have a thief in the party who likes to hide/stealth in available terrain, and then snipe with his crossbow to score his bonus sneak damage.

And let's say there's a mage in the party who also likes to hide outside of combat, and who could cast Ricochet Shot on the thief (or who could brew a potion of Ricochet Shot which the thief could use at need).

Would our sneaky thief get his bonus sneak damage on both the primary and secondary/ricochet targets?

Yes, if they are both eligible targets for sneak attack.

Quote:

Let's say instead the mage created a Wand of Magic Missiles for the thief. Would he get sneak damage using the wand instead of the crossbow? And if so, could he fire one magic missile at each of several targets and get sneak damage against each?

Pretty sure the answer is a flat no to all of this. Magic missile is not technically an "attack" (there is no attack roll). I might be wrong on this. Maybe someone else can help me out on a reference.

Regardless, a spell such as scorching ray that can generate multiple attacks from one casting only gets the sneak attack on one ray. FAQ

Quote:

The Ricochet Shot spell description does not specify an arrow, bolt, or bullet. All it says is "projectile weapon". A Wand of Magic Missiles is a weapon which fires projectiles. So in theory, our (10th level, for this example) thief could fire his Wand from stealth at 5 different targets, hit all 5 with no to-hit roll needed and no saving throw, doing d4+1 +5d6 stealth damage to each target, and then Ricochet all five missiles to each hit another five targets, again doing d4+1 +5d6 damage.

See above. Also, a wand is not a weapon. It creates a spell effect via the spell trigger activation method. You could conceivably use a wand of spiritual weapon made by a cleric of Abadar to create a crossbow, then use an oil of ricochet shot on the created spiritual weapon. But you have to target a weapon. And it wouldn't be you making the attack so you wouldn't be getting the sneak attack.

[Belafon]

Ah, found the reference. Sean K. Reynolds was a designer for Pathfinder when he wrote this (and the main "rules guy" poster from Paizo).

SKR wrote:

Sneak attack normally works with weapon-like spells, including rays. It doesn't normally work with magic missile because that is not a weapon-like spell or ray.

"Normally" meaning that you might have an ability like the Arcane Trickster's surprise spells that does allow you to sneak attack with any spell that does damage.

[Gilfalas]

I think that Magic Missle's line stating that specific parts of a target cannot be singled out with the spell removes the ability to sneak attack with the spell.

Sneak attack specifically states it needs to hit a 'vital spot' and is 'precision damage' so that reinforces this concept.

[willuwontu]

There's a whole FAQ for this:

FAQ wrote:

Weapon Attacks and Special Abilities: Many places in the rules use the term “ranged weapon attacks” and similar terms, but how does this apply to spells, spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, and extraordinary abilities (heretoafter called special abilities) that require ranged attacks but might not necessarily seem like weapons?

In general, special abilities that require attack rolls benefit and suffer from all modifiers affecting attack rolls even if those modifiers mention weapon attack rolls (such as the penalty for firing into melee, the bonus on attack rolls from Point-Blank Shot and inspire courage, and the like), unless the spell specifically calls out that it doesn’t apply them (for instance spiritual weapon calls out that it isn’t affected by feats and combat actions, but it would still have to deal with cover, and firing into melee if ranged).

When it comes to modifiers that affect weapon damage rolls, or simply “damage rolls” (such as the bonus on damage rolls from Point-Blank Shot, inspire courage, and smite evil), special abilities that deal damage on a successful attack roll, apply them on hit point damage only, and only once per casting or use, rather than once per attack. For instance, if a spell or special ability launched a dozen different ranged attacks simultaneously, only one (of the user’s choice) would receive bonus damage. This doesn’t apply on area effects with the rare potential for extraneous attack rolls, like fireball. However, there is a category of abilities that deserve a special note: Abilities like Arcane Strike that specifically enhance a character’s weapon or weapons themselves never apply to special abilities (with the exception of special abilities like the warlock’s mystic bolts that specifically call out that Arcane Strike applies).

In the same vein as abilities like Arcane Strike that affect a character’s weapons, abilities that say “with a weapon,” “with a melee weapon,” and “with a ranged weapon” almost never work with special abilities because such wording is almost always used as shorthand for “manufactured weapon,” “manufactured melee weapon,” and “manufactured ranged weapon.” The exception is abilities that deal damage when a creature touches or hits you in melee (for instance, the occultis’s energy ward focus power), which should also deal damage when a creature makes a melee touch attack against you but rarely call them out directly.

Certain special abilities (for instance rays, kinetic blasts, and mystic bolts) can specifically be selected with feats like Weapon Focus and Improved Critical. They still aren’t considered a type of weapon for other rules; they are not part of any weapon group and don’t qualify for the effects of fighter weapon training, warpriest sacred weapon, magus arcane pool, paladin divine bond, or any other such ability.

Abilities that modify the action usage of ranged weapon attacks or require their own special action almost never work with special abilities, since special abilities require their own actions. For instance, Pinpoint Targeting wouldn’t work with scorching ray or the soundstriker’s weird words because each of them requires its own action to activate and thus can’t be part of the feat’s specific standard action. Rare exceptions include mystic bolts and kinetic blade, which can specifically be used as part of other actions.