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I would like people's opinions. If you can bring new (to me) citations of the rules, I would really like that a lot.
Throwing Shields are Tripping Weapons. You can make Trip Attacks with a Throwing Shield.
If you have the Improved Trip Feat, then you don't Provoke Attacks of Opportunity when making the Trip Combat Maneuver Attack.
Throwing Shields are Ranged Weapons. I figure you Trip with a Throwing Shield by throwing it like at their feet or something. Well, making Ranged Attacks Provokes Attacks of Opportunity.
So, let's say I have Improved Trip, and I want to Trip you with my Throwing Shield, and lets assume I am in one of your Threatened Squares.
Do I Provoke an Attack of Opportunity because I am making a Ranged Attack in a Threatened Square?
Do I not Provoke an Attack of Opportunity because I am making a Trip Maneuver, and I have Improved Trip?
If I do not Provoke an Attack of Opportunity, does that logically imply that something weird is going on? Like Combat Maneuvers are generally melee things, and when I trip you with a Throwing Shield, am I actually not Throwing it? Would that mean that you can't Trip with a Throwing Shield at Range?
Or is something else going on? Like the fact that Throwing Shields can be unclasped to be thrown, you can also unclasp them to drop them in order to not be Tripped by your own Tripping Attempt as a Free Action, too? That would still allow for Tripping with a Throwing Shield by throwing at at your opponents' feet. Can you have it both ways? Can you elect to provoke an Attack of Opportunity by Tripping your Adjacent opponent by throwing your Throwing Shield at their feet?
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Looks like you'd normally provoke two attacks of opportunity; one for using a ranged weapon while threatened and one for making a trip attempt.
Improved Trip negates the latter. Something similar to Point Blank Master would negate the prior.
I 100% agree normally it would provoke twice.
Much like casting a ranged attack spell. You can avoid the AoO for casting with concentration, and still take it for actually making the attack.
An important point about ranged maneuvers and attacks of opportunity is that combat maneuvers only provoke from the target of the maneuver. So even without any feat investment ranged combat maneuvers (or ones performed with reach weapons) will often be safe from AoOs.
I agree with everyone.
Normally you'd provoke 2 AoOs, 1 for making a ranged attack and 1 for making an untrained combat maneuver. As Java Man said, the Maneuver only provokes an AoO from your target, while the ranged attack provokes from anyone and everyone who threatens you.
By taking Improved Trip you negate the AoO associated with the maneuver, but not the AoO for making a ranged attack. If you took "POINT BLANK MASTER: Shield" you would negate any AoOs against you for throwing your shield, though this feat wouodn't negate the AoO provoked by making a combat maneuver. You'd need both feats to negate all the AoOs against you (or as Java Man said, just stepping back out of reach would let you avoid any AoOs).
(Also for the sake of thoroughness - unless the enemy has Combat Reflexes they can only make 1 AoO each, so provoking twice may not matter.)
So the consensus so far seems to be that when you Trip with a Throwing Shield, you do so by throwing it, and you can't use the Tripping Property of a Throwing Shield without Throwing it?
This is a real conundrum to me. Flavor/real world wise I'd think you could trip with a throw, a sweep, or maybe even a low jab. Since you're looking for RAW though, and the system is closed, may have to settle for RAI. Are there any other weapons that are both ranged, melee, and trip? If not, the shield is a special case, and GM call will be the final rule.
On a tangential note, I'll add a thought that's been bubbling for a bit. As important as GM call is, player's choice matters here to. It would seem that you visualize the trip as part of a throw with the shield. If you don't think your character could/should/would trip without the throw don't do it.
Not questioning, but can you link please? I can't remember or visualize that weapon.
Copied from AoN:
Source Ultimate Equipment pg. 20, Classic Horrors Revisited pg. 8, Adventurer's Armory pg. 2, Ultimate Combat pg. 144
Statistics
Cost 5 gp Weight 2 lbs.
Damage 1d4 (small), 1d6 (medium); Critical x2; Range 20 ft.; Type B; Special performance, trip
Category Light; Proficiency Exotic
Weapon Groups Hammers; Thrown
Description
The aklys is a hooked throwing club with a 20-foot-long cord, usually of woven leather; you can retrieve the aklys after throwing it as a move action. The hook allows you to make trip attacks at range. Some aklyses have holes drilled through them and whistle when flung.
Can't you attack in melee with just about every thrown weapon? If not then why can't you choose to trip with a melee or a range CBM? I mean it says weapon group thrown. Plus it's 50 gp extra to mod the shield no? So it still has all the properties of a regular shield plus thrown, and thus very shieldy and very smacky and possibly trippy in this case.
Sysryke wrote: This is a real conundrum to me. Flavor/real world wise I'd think you could trip with a throw, a sweep, or maybe even a low jab. You can trip with any weapon or no weapon even per RAW.
FAQ, Core Rulebook, Equipment, Tripping Weapons wrote: When making a trip combat maneuver, you don't have to use a weapon with the trip special feature--you can use any weapon. For example, you can trip with a longsword or an unarmed strike, even though those weapons don't have the trip special feature. Sysryke wrote: Are there any other weapons that are both ranged, melee, and trip? If not, the shield is a special case, and GM call will be the final rule. VoodistMonk wrote: Aklys Sysryke wrote: Not questioning, but can you link please? I can't remember or visualize that weapon. Voodist is quoting it right, but here is the link you asked for.
This might help you visualize it.
I would think then, that the trip is doable from both melee and range. If the properties of the shield protect you from an AoO with one, it should the other. But again, does it make sense to you for the character? Is this something you want to do, or something you feel you should be limited on?
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Per RAW, I would think that a weapon property is a weapon property. If a weapon says it gives you +2 to disarm or whatever, then that's what it does, however you do it, unless the rest of the weapon's rules provide further restrictions.
And the properties of the shield don't protect you from either AoO; the feat Improved Trip prevents you from provoking for attempting the maneuver, and PBM prevents you from provoking for making a ranged attack while threatened.
Although, if the shield's text doesn't contain any restrictions about it's trip special quality, you could just attempt the maneuver as a melee attack.
You guys are giving me some clarity on this.
We are talking about provoking 2 Attacks of Opportunity, here: 1 for Tripping and 1 for making a Ranged Attack in a Threatened Square.
Since a Throwing Shield is a Tripping Weapon, you can make a Trip attack with it at Range, and since all shields are also melee weapons, you can Trip with them at melee range anyway: you can Trip someone with any weapon or with no weapon. The FAQ says so.
The only issue is that if you use a shield that is also a Throwing Shield as a melee weapon to Trip someone with, do you still get to enjoy the Throwing Shield's Tripping quality?
In other words, does a Throwing Shield only have the Trip Quality when used as a Ranged Weapon?
Conceptually, it seems like it should still be a Tripping Weapon when used in melee. The same special straps that allow you to detach it as a Free Action to be Thrown should also allow you to detach it as a Free Action to drop it to avoid being Tripped by your own Tripping Attack in the event of a catastrophically bad roll, but "conceptually" is not as important as what the rules say.
Since the only advantage of the Tripping Quality is that ability to drop it rather than fall Prone yourself, I think it is not a distinction that will affect my character build much. I was thinking in terms of taking Monkey Style for any any Tripping Build anyway, and Point Blank Master or Close Quarters Thrower is a must-have for any Ranged Build.
I don't have a definitive, RAW answer, but I know how to frame the question to a GM.
Thank you all. Feel free to continue debating.
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As I said before, a weapon quality is a weapon quality. The shield is a tripping weapon; unless the text says it only has that quality in certain situations, it has them in all of them.
Not relevant to the question, but a hooked shield boss might be occasionally useful to your build.
Quote: Conceptually, it seems like it should still be a Tripping Weapon when used in melee. RAW, you would have to use it to trip in melee unless you had Ranged Trip. All the trip weapon quality does is let you drop the weapon on a failed trip attempt, and it doesn't actually have an ability that lets you trip at range.
Now thematically, I'd allow it because it's cool and that's how it should work imo, but I also think that you should be able to trip\sunder\disarm with ranged attacks from the get-go anyways.
avr wrote: Not relevant to the question, but a hooked shield boss might be occasionally useful to your build. No, but I was totally thinking of a Captain America build using a hooked shield boss. Since they use the Trip Combat Maneuver to make opponents Flatfooted, I was thinking Trip build, and I was thinking that since Throwing Shields were Trip weapons, too...
the trip property does not allow you to trip with that weapon.
the trip property allows you to drop the weapon if you fail in your trip attempt by 10 or more and therefore trip youself instead of your target.
I'm pretty sure the OP knows this. I'm the one who poorly worded my post and confused the issue.
Keep in mind that if you're making a "ranged" trip attack instead of tripping with a shield bash, you're likely not within range of their retribution, and you'll only provoke for making a ranged attack if someone else can reach you if you don't have Pointblank Master. If you trip with a shield bash attack, you only provoke from the person you are tripping if you don't have Improved Trip.
The tripping quality really doesn't matter if you're using the weapon at range, since you've already let go of the shield, you can't drop it nor would you be at risk of tripping yourself on a failed roll.
In any case, this is another case of unclear rules that were never noticed all the way back to the beginning of the game that don't by RAW work together even though there is a clear RAI.
vhok wrote: the trip property does not allow you to trip with that weapon. Sure it does.
Tripping wrote: Trip*: You can use a trip weapon to make trip attacks.
AwesomenessDog wrote: The tripping quality really doesn't matter if you're using the weapon at range, since you've already let go of the shield, you can't drop it nor would you be at risk of tripping yourself on a failed roll. Well, the Tripping Feature still applies. If your Combat Maneuver Check fails by 10 or more, you can elect to drop the weapon instead of being tripped yourself, and well, you already "dropped" your Throwing Shield, didn't you?
AwesomenessDog wrote: The tripping quality really doesn't matter if you're using the weapon at range The reason why it matters is that normally Combat Maneuvers can only be done in melee. The fact that this Ranged version of this normally melee-only weapon--Throwing Shield vs. regular Shield--specifically is a Tripping Weapon means that it allows you to make Tripping Attacks at Range.
The FAQ says you can make Trip attempts with any weapon or with no weapon, so of course you can attempt to make a melee trip attempt with a Throwing Shield just as you can with a regular shield. Throwing Shields are still Shields, and Shields are still melee weapons.
The question is, if you make a melee trip attack with a Throwing Shield, can you still use the Tripping Feature, or does the Tripping Feature only apply when you throw it?
Quixote wrote: Per RAW, I would think that a weapon property is a weapon property. If a weapon says it gives you +2 to disarm or whatever, then that's what it does, however you do it, unless the rest of the weapon's rules provide further restrictions.... if the shield's text doesn't contain any restrictions about it's trip special quality, you could just attempt the maneuver as a melee attack. Okay, you think that if you pay the extra 50gp to make your shield a Throwing Shield, you now have a Range Increment, and you have the Tripping Feature. Nevermind how you Trip, you are using a Tripping Weapon now, regardless.
Quixote wrote: And the properties of the shield don't protect you from either AoO; In 3.5, the Tripping Weapon Feature did protect you from Attacks of Opportunity, perhaps redundantly with the Improved Trip Feat. I was confused by that, myself, initially.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Quixote wrote: Per RAW, I would think that a weapon property is a weapon property. If a weapon says it gives you +2 to disarm or whatever, then that's what it does, however you do it, unless the rest of the weapon's rules provide further restrictions.... if the shield's text doesn't contain any restrictions about it's trip special quality, you could just attempt the maneuver as a melee attack. Okay, you think that if you pay the extra 50gp to make your shield a Throwing Shield, you now have a Range Increment, and you have the Tripping Feature. Nevermind how you Trip, you are using a Tripping Weapon now, regardless.
Quixote wrote: And the properties of the shield don't protect you from either AoO; In 3.5, the Tripping Weapon Feature did protect you from Attacks of Opportunity, perhaps redundantly with the Improved Trip Feat. I was confused by that, myself, initially. Not always. Usually the trip property let you drop the weapon to avoid the penalty.
Bolas were ranged trip that had no down side.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: vhok wrote: the trip property does not allow you to trip with that weapon. Sure it does.
Tripping wrote: Trip*: You can use a trip weapon to make trip attacks. Trip special quality is NOT what allows you to use a weapon to trip. you can use anything to trip.
FAQ
If you want to make a trip combat maneuver, do you have to use a weapon with the trip special feature?
No. When making a trip combat maneuver, you don’t have to use a weapon with the trip special feature–you can use any weapon. For example, you can trip with a longsword or an unarmed strike, even though those weapons don’t have the trip special feature. Note that there is an advantage to using a weapon with the trip special feature (a.k.a. a “trip weapon”) when making a trip combat maneuver: if your trip attack fails by 10 or more, you can drop the trip weapon instead of being knocked prone.
On a related note, you don’t have to use a weapon with the disarm special feature (a.k.a. a “disarm weapon”) when making a disarm combat maneuver–you can use any weapon.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Quixote wrote: Per RAW, I would think that a weapon property is a weapon property. If a weapon says it gives you +2 to disarm or whatever, then that's what it does, however you do it, unless the rest of the weapon's rules provide further restrictions.... if the shield's text doesn't contain any restrictions about it's trip special quality, you could just attempt the maneuver as a melee attack. Okay, you think that if you pay the extra 50gp to make your shield a Throwing Shield, you now have a Range Increment, and you have the Tripping Feature. Nevermind how you Trip, you are using a Tripping Weapon now, regardless.
Quixote wrote: And the properties of the shield don't protect you from either AoO; In 3.5, the Tripping Weapon Feature did protect you from Attacks of Opportunity, perhaps redundantly with the Improved Trip Feat. I was confused by that, myself, initially. what tripping feature are you talking about??? what exactly allows you to do a ranged trip with this shield? the trip property allows you to drop your shield after you fail a melee trip attempt by 10 or more. bolas have special wording which allows a ranged trip, throwing shields do not have this, the trip property does not allow a ranged trip either.
You can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. If you do not have the Improved Trip feat, or a similar ability, initiating a trip provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.
If your attack exceeds the target’s CMD, the target is knocked prone. If your attack fails by 10 or more, you are knocked prone instead. If the target has more than two legs, add +2 to the DC of the combat maneuver attack roll for each additional leg it has. Some creatures—such as oozes, creatures without legs, and flying creatures—cannot be tripped.
@Scott, You're missing the point of what I am saying. Literally none of the important parts (as per your original question) apply. Your response is literally just a rewording of what I said. I didn't say it couldn't be used to trip at range and I spoke about using it in melee in the first paragraph.
I was wondering about that; if the shield doesn't contain language to allow
a trip in place of a ranged attack, then yeah you can't do it at all. I just assumed it was like a bolas.
Quoting the actual relevant rules would be helpful, I think.
I had assumed the ranged trip feat was being taken. If not, you can't do it.
Since it doesnt do anything at ranged without the feat, it can't be used to trip at a distance. Unlike bolas.
Oh, that's interesting, now you are saying that the Throwing Feature added to a Shield ONLY grants the Tripping quality as a melee weapon, and does not allow you to make ranged trip attempts at all!
I was figuring that since Throwing Shield is a Ranged Weapon with the Tripping Feature, and since the Tripping Feature states that you can make tripping attacks with this weapon, that means you can make Ranged Trips, and I was worried about being able to use the Tripping Feature as a melee weapon!
Quixote wrote: Quoting the actual relevant rules would be helpful, I think. I'm afraid I already have quoted all the relevant rules I know of.
Exotic Ranged Weapons Table wrote: Throwing Shields Throwing Shield wrote: Ranged Increment 20ft. (projectile)...
Special: Performance, Trip
Tripping wrote: You can use a trip weapon to make trip attacks. But that seems like enough: a Throwing Shield is a is a projectile Ranged Weapon with the Trip Feature. And the fact that it has the Trip Feature means you can make Trip Attacks with it.
Everything about the Throwing Shield is about a modification to a regular shield to turn it into a Ranged Weapon, so I'm figuring everything about its description is about its use as a Ranged Weapon.
Quixote wrote: if the shield doesn't contain language to allow
a trip in place of a ranged attack, then yeah you can't do it at all.
But isn't it just as fair to say that if a feature of a Ranged Weapon only applied to its use as anything other than making ranged attacks with it, then wouldn't its description need to have that language then?
Meanwhile, the Trip Feature itself has language that covers that. If a weapon has the Trip Feature, you can make Trip Attacks with it. It says so right in the description of the Feature.
We've looked at some other examples.
The Aklys can be used to make Ranged Trip attacks, but it says so right in the description of the weapon, and the the Throwing Shield doesn't say that in the description of the Throwing Shield. But the Throwing Shield is not a Ranged projectile weapon: it's a Melee Weapon with a Range Increment: a Throwing Weapon. Without the clarifying text in the weapon description, you might assume that the Trip Feature only applies to its use as a melee weapon just as vhok says.
How to classify a Throwing Shield is a little tricky. It is in the Thrown Fighter Weapon Group. It is a Shield and so can be used as a melee weapon, and it is listed as a Ranged Weapon, and in its description, it is listed as a projectile weapon, maybe like detaching it turns it into a really big shuriken?
Bolas can be used to make Ranged Trip Attacks, and it says so in the description. The fact that Throwing Shields don't suggests that Bolas have this ability. But that is far from a hard no.
Trip quality is not what allows you to make trips and even if it was trips are melee attacks as I quoted from the rules in my earlier post.
vhok wrote: Trip quality is not what allows you to make trips and even if it was trips are melee attacks as I quoted from the rules in my earlier post. Yes. I quoted, too.
I quoted the FAQ that states that in melee, you can trip with any weapon or with no weapon. The fact that a Halberd is a Tripping weapon is not what makes you able to Trip with it: you could trip anyone in melee with any weapon or no weapon. The fact that a Halberd is a Tripping weapon means that in the event of a catastrophic Trip Roll where you would be Tripped yourself, you could drop your Halberd instead because a Halberd is a Tripping Weapon.
But it is also true that if a weapon has the Tripping Feature, you can Trip with it. I've quoted this a bunch, too, and I've linked to it so you can examine it.
Tripping wrote: You can use a trip weapon to make trip attacks. So there it is: you can trip with any melee weapon, as you said. You can trip with any weapon that has the Trip Feature, as I said.
AwesomenessDog wrote: @Scott, You're missing the point of what I am saying. Literally none of the important parts (as per your original question) apply. Your response is literally just a rewording of what I said. I'm sorry. I really didn't mean to give your response short shrift, and I really thought I did understand what you were saying.
My views on Throwing Shields as weapons with the Tripping Feature are evolving as a result of this thread and contributions to it by writers like you.
Although, if my response "is literally just a rewording of what [you] said," I guess that means we are in agreement?
AwesomenessDog wrote: I didn't say it couldn't be used to trip at range So, we agree on that,
but you wrote: The tripping quality really doesn't matter if you're using the weapon at range, and I saw an an interpretation of that clause that I didn't agree with. As vhok has been saying, Tripping is a Combat Maneuver, and Combat Maneuvers are melee things. You normally can't Trip someone at range. But if your weapon is a Tripping weapon, like a Bola or a Snag Net, then you can Trip with it even at Range. The Tripping Feature specifically states that if a weapon has the Tripping Feature, you can Trip with it.
So, if all you meant was that "the tripping quality really doesn't matter if you are using the weapon at range" only in terms of your ability to drop it in the event of a terrible roll, then I agree with you: you already "dropped" your Bolas when you threw them, didn't you? But since it is the Trip Quality that lets you Trip with those Bolas at all, I felt like that needed clarification.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: But isn't it just as fair to say that if a feature of a Ranged Weapon only applied to its use as anything other than making ranged attacks with it, then wouldn't its description need to have that language then? Not quite.
Trip wrote: You can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack. So:
-you can trip with any weapon.
-a weapon with the trip special quality allows you to drop the weapon instead of being tripped yourself on a failed attempt.
-a trip attempt occurs in place of a melee attack.
Unless the weapon's description contains text that overrides that third point (see: aklys, bolas), it can't be used to make trip attempts at range. Because a trip attempt, by definition, occurs in place of a melee attack. There is no other possible way to make a trip attempt with a ranged weapon.
Want to trip? Cool, make the attempt in place of a melee attack.
Got a ranged weapon with the trip special quality? Cool. Trip attempts still occur in place of melee attacks, though.
Sure, it may lack the specific text to Trip at range... but come on...
As if life isn't going to be to be hard enough using a throwing weapon with no Blinkback Belt.
At the very least, you probably need Dodge, Weapon Focus, Close Quarters Thrower, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip... just to avoid provoking AoO.
And you won't let them Trip someone at range? Why not?
Now they're weapon is over there. So is their shield. Lol.
Not a fix to everything, but isn't this what the Shield Champion archetype of Brawler is for?
@scott my point is that the tripping quality only adds the option to drop the weapon if you fail by 10 or more instead of falling prone yourself (since you can already attempt a trip with any melee weapon already). This doesn't matter when you are making a ranged attack because the weapon isn't in your hand to drop anymore and it's unreasonable to assume that you are more or less likely to slip when you throw the shield based on who your target (and what their CMD) is.
Personally, I believe the RAI is that adding the trip quality to a throwing shield is meant to imply that you can make the ranged trip using regular melee trip rules (and because throwing shields are designed to be loosed easily, that you can now also drop them when you fail by 10+ even in melee). But back to what I originally wrote, the RAW doesn't say this because the RAW dates back to the start of PF as an iteration on 3.5 and is noticeably clunky and obtuse in this matter.
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VoodistMonk wrote: And you won't let them Trip someone at range? Why not? *I* most certainly would, but this is a Rules Question thread, not Advice or General Discussion or whatever. And Scott has telegraphed pretty clearly that he's into the crunchy, literal, and RAW pretty clearly. So I figured that sort of answer would be most useful.
Quixote wrote: Scott has telegraphed pretty clearly that he's into the crunchy, literal, and RAW pretty clearly. So I figured that sort of answer would be most useful. I evidently have, I am, and I do! I appreciate your RAW argument, and I think we are having a respectful disagreement and debate. I feel like I am learning from everyone, even from people I am disagreeing with, perhaps especially so.
It seems that your point--correct me if I'm wrong--is that Tripping is a Combat Maneuver, and Combat Maneuvers are generally a thing you do in melee. So that means you can't make a Ranged Trip without some specific exception.
I agree with that, and I think you do, too.
It seems to me that your point--correct me if I'm wrong--is that you see no special exception made in the description of the Throwing Shield.
Here is where we are disagreeing: I do see that special exception.
To me, the fact that a Throwing Shield is a Ranged Projectile Weapon with the Tripping Feature means you can make Ranged Trip Attacks with it. The description of Trip Weapons states that Trip Weapons can be used to make Trip Attacks. If they meant to say you could only apply the Throwing Shield's Trip Feature to melee attacks, well, then they really should have said so! Consider the fact that a Throwing Shield is a Ranged Projectile Weapon. Can you even make a melee attack with a Ranged Projectile Weapon? Sure, anything can be an Improvised Weapon, and there's things like Empty Quiver Style, but those seems like exceptions that prove the rule. You can make melee attacks with Bayonets attached to crossbows and muskets, but those aren't melee crossbow attacks: those are bayonet attacks.
If I am making an assumption here, it is only that the description of the Throwing Shield is a description of how it is used as a Ranged, Projectile Weapon, and I don't think that is an assumption.
Quixote wrote: *I* most certainly would, but You seem to think it is just barely an assumption.
Sysryke wrote: Not a fix to everything, but isn't this what the Shield Champion archetype of Brawler is for? Interestingly, I think Shield Champions do not use Throwing Shields. They have a Class Ability that lets them throw regular shields.
RAW- nothing built into the shield allows you to make ranged trips with a throwing shield. Nothing
there is a saying in my group, want to do something? there is a feat for that.
I don't have much of a dog in this hunt @Scott, but is the Throwing Shield a ranged "projectile" weapon, or a ranged "thrown" weapon? Is there a defined term difference in the game? I've been assuming projectile weapons were things you shoot, like crossbows. Some of this confusion I think comes from weapons you can throw showing up in all of the different categories; light, one handed, two handed?, simple, martial, exotic, melee and ranged.
The RAW seems a bit ambiguous. I've seen reasonable arguments both ways here. Legalistically I think I'm leaning towards the throwing shield tripping only in melee. RAI on RAW, I feel the arguments are slightly stronger for the ranged trip being okay, as the trip descriptor is on the weapon, and it's both a melee and ranged weapon.
I think we all agree about the benefit of the trip property, dropping to avoid being tripped yourself. But that first RAW line you have quoted from the text creates the ambiguity. As it so often is, the final rules call has to be GM call.
My group would allow it, but I don't think we'd grumble if it went the other way.
vhok wrote: RAW- nothing built into the shield allows you to make ranged trips with a throwing shield. Nothing
there is a saying in my group, want to do something? there is a feat for that.
Dude, that's false, and you should know better.
It's one thing to cross-examine the RAW I've shown you and and point out problems with it, problems with my logic, show that it doesn't mean what I think it means, outweigh my evidence with evidence of your own, but you're just denying the evidence I've shown you even exists, and I have a problem with that.
Sysryke wrote: I don't have much of a dog in this hunt @Scott, but is the Throwing Shield a ranged "projectile" weapon, or a ranged "thrown" weapon? The description of the weapon states that it is a projectile weapon, although it is in the Thrown Fighter Weapon Group.
The weapons I (we?) normally think of as Thrown Weapons: axes, spears, javelins, those are all melee weapons with Range Increments. The Throwing Shield is specifically placed in the category of Ranged Weapon, and the description lists it as a projectile weapon.
Sysryke wrote: Is there a defined term difference in the game? As a matter of fact, there is.
Weapon Rules wrote: Weapons are grouped into several interlocking sets of categories. These categories pertain to what training is needed to become proficient in a weapon’s use (simple, martial, or exotic), the weapon’s usefulness either in close combat (melee) or at a distance (ranged, which includes both thrown and projectile weapons), Sysryke wrote: I've been assuming projectile weapons were things you shoot, like crossbows. Some of this confusion I think comes from weapons you can throw showing up in all of the different categories; light, one handed, two handed?, simple, martial, exotic, melee and ranged. It also includes Shuriken, Net, Stormshaft Javelin, Boomerang, and Bolas. These are all weapons you pretty much can't use in melee. You can kind of use Javelins in melee, but Proficiency in Javelin only applies to Throwing them. You take a -4 on attack rolls when you attack with a Javelin, which is equal to the penalty you would take with an Improvised Weapon.
Would you say, per RAW, that if you were not proficient in Throwing Shield, but you were proficient in Simple and Martial Weapons and light and heavy shields, you could use a Throwing Shield to Trip with in Melee with no penalty, and you would be able to use the Tripping Feature, dropping it as a Free Action to avoid being Tripped on a catastrophic roll?
Scott Wilhelm wrote: It seems that your point--correct me if I'm wrong--is that Tripping is a Combat Maneuver, and Combat Maneuvers are generally a thing you do in melee. So that means you can't make a Ranged Trip without some specific exception. Sort of. More specifically, look at the Trip entry in the Combat chapter under Combat Maneuvers:
"You can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack."
So, any time you want to attempt to trip an opponent, you do so in place of a melee attack.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: To me, the fact that a Throwing Shield is a Ranged Projectile Weapon with the Tripping Feature means you can make Ranged Trip Attacks with it. The description of Trip Weapons states that Trip Weapons can be used to make Trip Attacks. Sure. You can make a trip attack with the weapon. So how do you do that? Look up Trip under Combat Maneuvers in the Combat chapter. It says you make such attempts in place of a melee attack.
That's how the trip maneuver works. You can't trip someone in place of a ranged attack or a move action or anything other than a melee attack. Unless, of course, you have a more specific rule that says otherwise.
Your argument seems to be that because it has a range increment and the trip special quality, they must work together. That doesn't hold water with me. You're inferring; if A, then surely B. That's not how RAW works. You need explicit permission.
Furthermore, your logic seems to be contradictory to itself:
Scott Wilhelm wrote: ...you can make Trip attempts with any weapon or with no weapon... Scott Wilhelm wrote: Trip Weapons can be used to make Trip Attacks. -- you KNOW that the trip special quality isn't what allows you to perform the combat maneuver, but now this "trip weapons can make trip attacks" line of reasoning is the singular thread upon which your argument hangs.
Look at the rules for making a trip attempt.
Look at the rules for the shield.
What EXPLICITLY states that the shield gives you the ability to alter the fundamental way the combat maneuver is performed and do so with a ranged attack?
There isn't one. There's a weapon with a range increment and the trip special quality, and it certainly would be rather weird if those two things just didn't interact at all and is almost definitely an oversight on the writer's part, but that's what the RAW states.
Sorry. It seems like you really want it to work. But it doesn't. Rules are rules.
Trip quality doesnt allow you to make trip attacks.
Any melee weapon can make trip attacks.
Trip weapons give a special quality during trip attacks.
So from this we know
1. The shield doesn't allow ranged trips just by virtue of having the trip feature.
2. Nothing written in the shield says this works like bolas, with trip attack at ranged
3. You can still shield bash (and therefore trip) with these shields and their quality of unwrapping as a free action is likely what allows them to use the trip feature unlike other shields in melee.
Again all of this is overridden by specifics. Either a) something in the weapon itself like a bola or b) something like ranged trip feat.
You'll require at least one, and the throwing shield doesn't have the first option.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: vhok wrote: RAW- nothing built into the shield allows you to make ranged trips with a throwing shield. Nothing
there is a saying in my group, want to do something? there is a feat for that.
Dude, that's false, and you should know better.
It's one thing to cross-examine the RAW I've shown you and and point out problems with it, problems with my logic, show that it doesn't mean what I think it means, outweigh my evidence with evidence of your own, but you're just denying the evidence I've shown you even exists, and I have a problem with that. you have pointed out your interpretation of RAI and how you think RAI is intended.
RAW is very clear, nothing on the shield allows ranged trip.
quote where it says. "you can make ranged trip attacks with this weapon" or something similar.
Look back upthread folks. The RAW line Scott has been referring to is under the rules for tripping. It's quoted in at least two of his posts. "You can use a trip weapon to make trip attacks." We all know, or can at least assume, that this is a redundancy within the rules text since any melee weapon can be used to try and trip. However, that common reasoning is still RAI. RAW is actually what is written down, and that line of text creates the ambiguity.
As I've said, we've seen arguments that support either take, but Scott's reference to RAW, is a legit reference, even if it's likely a bad case of editing.
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