The duration* of a spell is not contingent on it's caster existence, i.e., a caster does not need to keep existing or living for it's spell duration to continue until it runs out of time. A permanent spell would then keep on going until it is dispelled.
That being said, keep in mind that monsters summoned through the use of aSummon Monster spell can't use spell with expensive material component. This somewhat limits some shenanigans.
* Exception for spells that rely on concentration.
Edit: Turn out i was wrong about summoned creature.
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I do not have the rules in front of me so I can't quote. I think it can be found on the Magic section of the core rulebook.
Spells and abilities that have a duration that are cast by summoned creatures end when the summoning spell ends, be it from the summoning spell having run its course or the summoned creature having died.
I do not have the rules in front of me so I can't quote. I think it can be found on the Magic section of the core rulebook.
Spells and abilities that have a duration that are cast by summoned creatures end when the summoning spell ends, be it from the summoning spell having run its course or the summoned creature having died.
You are absolutely right, here's the quote:
When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have.
All spells it has cast expire.
The curse expires...
What was once permanent is no longer permanent.
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I don't think the effects of instant spells end when they disappear. Expire typically means somethings time has ended, and the term is only used rules wise to refer to expiration of duration. Using tattoo attunement to extend spells cast by summons is a common enough strategy, but I wouldn't expect to need it for instant effects.
If an instant effect ended on its own eventually, I could see an argument that the effect expired at the end of the summon.
I don't know how to word this any more clearly than the rules already have...
When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire.
How. Much. Clearer. Does. It. Have. To. Be?
An instant spell is no longer active as a spell once it's effect has taken place, it can't really expire. You would need a reference to all effects of the spells expiring not the spells themselves.
Doesn't specific overrule general?
Wouldn't it be a GENERAL rule that instant spells are no longer active once they have taken place?
Isn't "and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire" pretty freaking SPECIFIC?
Where exactly is this gear grinding?
It DOES say ALL the spells...
Doesn't specific overrule general?
Wouldn't it be a GENERAL rule that instant spells are no longer active once they have taken place?
Isn't "and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire" pretty freaking SPECIFIC?
Where exactly is this gear grinding?
It DOES say ALL the spells...
Instant spells pretty much stop being active once their effect already took place. For example, Power Word : Kill is instantaneous, it kills its target as the casting is complete. The duration of the spell expire as it's being cast, to reverse the effect of the spell would lead to some silly interactions.
Didn't know many summoned creatures were throwing down PW:K, but either way... Bestow Curse expires with the creature that bestowed said curse.
You dead? You still dead when the summons that killed you expires... sucks to be you.
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Bestow curse is permanent but not instantaneous. Summoned creature goes away, curse goes away. Stone shape is instantaneous and when the summon goes away the stone stays shaped.
I don't like giving the b!tch3s that hide behind their puppets THAT much power...
If a summoned creature polymorphs a PC, that polymorph effect expires with the summoned creature.
Blindness/deafness/curse/polymorph... it's a summoned effect! If summoning "isn't" slavery, which I have literally been banned for bringing up that it IS before, then their effects are "just shadows", too!
I will be "that guy" in this. I was invited to leave this forum for 6 months because I refused to budge on my belief that summoning is slavery. A large part of it was the way I chose to word things, and I am trying to be much more careful now.
But if summons escape being slaves on merit of being but a shadow, then I will be d@mned if their shadow BS persists after they do not!
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What about those with a permanent duration? Such as bestow curse and others. Does the curse/effect disappear?
A Djinni can cast Major Creation with a Duration of Permanent for vegetable matter. In the case of a summoned Djinni, through the spell Summon Genie for example, this Djinni would be able to cast Major Creation, choosing to create vegetable matter of some kind, this created matter would disappear when the Summon Genie spell ends, regardless of what the duration of Major Creation would be.
Because it doesn't seem to be clear for all, there is a distinction between Duration : Permanent and Duration : Instantaneous. The first one is Bestow Curse, it stays until removed, the second one is Fireball, it exists for an instant only.
In the case of summoned creatures, those spells that end when the summoned creature disappears are those spells the creature has cast that haven't ended already. Instantaneous spells end the instant after they are finished being cast, as such, whether the caster is a summoned creature or not is irrelevant.
Also to be noted, the consequences of a spell are not the spell itself, if a castle collapsed because a spell sent a critical part of one of its load-bearing walls to another plane, dissipating the spell brings the part of the wall back but the doesn't undo the collapse of the castle.
I like that description of the wall, a lot.
To clarify... I do not believe that things like the Blindness spell removes one's eyes, and is therefor reversible once the summoned creature that caused it expires...
Don't these clowns have enough already? Planar Binding is straight up cheating, there exist multiple summon to spells beyond reach loopholes, and these pr!cks don't ever get their hands dirty anyways!!!
Screw giving them they don't already have... a spell effect like Blindness does not remove one's eyes (to go along with the wall example)... so let it be reversed with the summoned creature that caused it expires.
There is absolutely NO reason to allow their temporary puppets to have permenant interaction with this world other than, you know, literally freaking killing people!
To clarify... I do not believe that things like the Blindness spell removes one's eyes, and is therefor reversible once the summoned creature that caused it expires...
And your belief is right, as nothing in the Blindness/Deafness spell mention anything about the target losing their eyes. What the spell does is that it permanently renders someone blind(or deaf). Since it have a ''permanent'' duration, it would expire at the end of a Summon Monster spell.
There is absolutely NO reason to allow their temporary puppets to have permenant interaction with this world other than, you know, literally freaking killing people!
Well, I can think of a few way for summoned creature to have a permanent effect on the world without solely relaying on magic. A summoned creature could use diplomacy, steal something, intimidate someone, etc. Their actions are still ''permanent'' in the sense that you can't reverse what's already been done.
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What about those with a permanent duration? Such as bestow curse and others. Does the curse/effect disappear?
You need a spell with an instantaneous duration. The effect of that kind of spell seems similar to a permanent effect, but actually, it is very different.
The difference is that a permanent spell is still sustained by the magic and can be dispelled or canceled, the instantaneous spell doesn't need the existence of magic to persist, it is sustained by the natural laws of the world.
To make an example: Cure Light Wounds. Once cast it has stopped the bleeding, replenished the lost blood, and knitted together the bones. When the summoned creature disappears the cured person's body is healthy and stays healthy.
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I like that description of the wall, a lot.
To clarify... I do not believe that things like the Blindness spell removes one's eyes, and is therefor reversible once the summoned creature that caused it expires...
Don't these clowns have enough already? Planar Binding is straight up cheating, there exist multiple summon to spells beyond reach loopholes, and these pr!cks don't ever get their hands dirty anyways!!!
Screw giving them they don't already have... a spell effect like Blindness does not remove one's eyes (to go along with the wall example)... so let it be reversed with the summoned creature that caused it expires.
There is absolutely NO reason to allow their temporary puppets to have permenant interaction with this world other than, you know, literally freaking killing people!
You are writing it a bit strongly, but Summoning is slavery.
Blindness goes away when the summoned creature goes away as it is a permanent effect. Even more interesting, as it is a permanent effect it can be dispelled.
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I like that description of the wall, a lot.
To clarify... I do not believe that things like the Blindness spell removes one's eyes, and is therefor reversible once the summoned creature that caused it expires...
Don't these clowns have enough already? Planar Binding is straight up cheating, there exist multiple summon to spells beyond reach loopholes, and these pr!cks don't ever get their hands dirty anyways!!!
Screw giving them they don't already have... a spell effect like Blindness does not remove one's eyes (to go along with the wall example)... so let it be reversed with the summoned creature that caused it expires.
There is absolutely NO reason to allow their temporary puppets to have permenant interaction with this world other than, you know, literally freaking killing people!
You are writing it a bit strongly, but Summoning is slavery.
Blindness goes away when the summoned creature goes away as it is a permanent effect. Even more interesting, as it is a permanent effect it can be dispelled.
Wait, some people think summoning ISN'T slavery? It's coercion it best.
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Wait, some people think summoning ISN'T slavery? It's coercion it best.
While i can see why people equate summoning to slavery, comparing a +/- 1 minute duration spell that summons a creature and then return them their plane unharmed to something horrible and often lengthy that some real people had to go throught is kinda shaky and could be considered offensive.
Beside, you could fluff summon monster to only summon willing creature, the spell does not come with it's own flavor.
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Wait, some people think summoning ISN'T slavery? It's coercion it best.While i can see why people equate summoning to slavery, comparing a +/- 1 minute duration spell that summons a creature and then return them their plane unharmed to something horrible and often lengthy that some real people had to go throught is kinda shaky and could be considered offensive.
Beside, you could fluff summon monster to only summon willing creature, the spell does not come with it's own flavor.
The problem is that the creature hasn't any free will during those few rounds, so you can have it do anything, regardless of its nature. Slavery for a few seconds is still slavery.
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Oh wow, I've spent the last ten years thinking that summoning made creatures out of energy, and calling was the slavery. D'oh.
Guess I'm not scribing any more summoning spells.
The description has been going back and forth even in the same version of the game from the start of D&D.
For Pathfinder:
Summoning: A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically
indicates this.
The problem is that the creature hasn't any free will during those few rounds, so you can have it do anything, regardless of its nature. Slavery for a few seconds is still slavery.
While i'm not saying that summoning spell are ethical as they are written but i am still incomfortable with equating them to slavery it does not do justice to the concept and it's real application in the world. That being said, i do see your point, as written, summoning spell are unethical.
Oh wow, I've spent the last ten years thinking that summoning made creatures out of energy, and calling was the slavery. D'oh.
Guess I'm not scribing any more summoning spells.
If you're playing in homebrew campaign, there's way to get rid of the problematic unethical part of the spells. Imo, i would only had that only willing monsters are summoned. Althought, it would still be problematic for creatures that can't give consent, such as animals.
Yanking something from where it was, and forcing it to do something for you... call it whatever you want to, it's still wrong.
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Yanking something from where it was, and forcing it to do something for you... call it whatever you want to, it's still wrong.
Yeah, as i said previously, i believe it is wrong, i was just explaning my reluctance to call it slavery.
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I see various possibilities for summoning. Those summoners that care about others could have made a pact with the summoned creatures, like Elric had with the elemental lords. It could be plain coercion as well for those summoners that don't care about the well-being of those they bring forth. I think there is room to fluff it in many ways but, no, summons are not shadows.
I assumed it was something like a job or a trade. Extra planar day laborers, they eat the spell energy of the spell used to summon them, or something like that. It would be sort of cool if summoners were seen by other planes the way the material plane sees wish granting genies; warning one another of the risks of accepting a summon invite.
There's certainly ways to shape the world that make summoning more or less exploitative. I've been running a game where summons are all contract based, and the contract is worked out as part of memorization. The players are frequently summoned in that game, so there needed to be more to it. I usually just hand wave it as there always being some willing creature in the infinite planes, though I do house rule alignment restrictions, but it could be more rigorously worked out.
I treat it like it is exactly what it is in my games.
Bad guys that summon are even worse morally/ethically than the other bad guys around them.
Good guys that summon get sideways looks from other good guys, and even the bad guys attack you for summoning. Not because you are powerful and need to be removed as a threat, but because you deserve to be attacked for summoning.
Only the worst of the worst don't whince a little bit any time something is summoned. Very, very few of my NPC's specialize in such BS.
I understand the utility of what is offered. I just don't like using it, even as a bad guy, because I think it's wrong. And it just pollutes the battlefield, slows everything down. Summoning is dumb on a lot of levels for me...
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VoodistMonk, if I ever play at your table, Ima roll a Master Summoner XD XD XD
VoodistMonk, if I ever play at your table, Ima roll a Master Summoner XD XD XD
I appreciate this.
That's an ethics debate.
I think you are mistaking ethics for morality.
To VoodistMonk, as long as you make it clear during session zero, regardless on which side of the screen you are, and abide by general take of the table when on the players side, I think your approach makes for an interesting universe.
Yeah, I feel like the mortality of summoning is something that can be tweaked pretty easily with a little more detail in the setting. In my last game, the shaman wasn't conjuring animals from the æther, they were just calling nearby animals to come on over. Since animals are just the spirits made flesh, and the shaman had honored the ancient pacts between her people and the spirits, the animal was more than happy to help out, be it fighting off ice trolls or laying down it's life to feed the camp.
Now, the issues with summoning from a mechanical standpoint are a whole 'nother can of worms.
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I assumed that any extraplanar creature that is summoned is assigned to that task by it's outsider 'boss' (perhaps even it's god), and is 'on call' a certain percentage of the time and is off-duty the rest of the time. (Depending on the nature of said 'boss,' they may get more or less down-time. Shelyn probably has more generous leave policies than Asmodeus...)
Which is why you never summon an angel who was mid-combat, at half-health and blind, or a kyton who is nekkid and chainless because they were literally in the shower when the spell went off. Only those on call and ready for action, at full hit points and dressed for battle, get 'the call.'
But I also like James Jacobs notion that for generic summoning spells, the creatures summoned are assembled out of planar energy at the moment the spell is cast and then unweaves back into planar energy when the spell ends.
I don't even see the appeal of building a character who just has others do their dirty work. Out of everything possible in this game, you choose to just be lazy? Wow, cool character concept, I guess. Meanwhile, I will build characters that at least try do their own work.
My Undead minions were just going to waste otherwise, though. They weren't at home playing chess or sitting in church when I yanked them from the grave. They were dead, and now I can puppet their bones around. I find this a bit different, on a moral scale.
Yes, necromancy, the moral high road... you heard it here first.
I can't say much of anything about summons slowing gameplay or polluting the battlefield when I can have literally hundreds of HD worth of minions. Lol. You got me there.
Might have to explore Druid/Wild Shape a bit more, now that you put it that way.
My Undead minions were just going to waste otherwise, though. They weren't at home playing chess or sitting in church when I yanked them from the grave. They were dead, and now I can puppet their bones around. I find this a bit different, on a moral scale.
As you seem to value free will, I hope you have at least a verbal agreement with all previous owner of the bodies you animated. I'm pretty sure most would take objection to their body being toyed with. Their soul would most likely object to that, that's if foul necromancy doesn't twist their poor soul.
Outsiders seem to want to be summoned so they can put more of their influence into the world.
And it’s not true that summoned creatures don’t have free will. The Summoning subschool alone doesn’t give control of a creature. The individual spells may give you some control. But the most common option, the summon monster spells, only ensure that the creature attacks your enemies. Anything besides doing that is up to interpretation.
I get that they aren't dominated automatically. I get that they aren't really dying, or however that works. You might even be on to something with them WANTING any chance to spread their influence elsewhere.
I still don't like any of it. I don't know where they come from, or how they get here... but I am not buying that this is their day job, and they are waiting in line, chomping at the bit, eager to be summoned so they can do your work for you. Everything about it seems to remove free will, and I am not comfortable with that... even in a stupid game.
Not that me being comfortable with it means anything one way or another. I don't give that much of a $#!+ if your make-believe character in a fantasy game summons make-believe monsters in said fantasy game. Just it's something my make-believe characters will seldom, if never, do.
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I don't know, VoodistMonk. It's clear you've got an axe to grind. I'm just not sure what axe it is, or what it's for.
Summoning is morally reprehensible.
Summoning is a cheesey mechanic.
Summoning makes a character boring.
But there are other interpretations that make summoning less awful on the Good/ Evil axis (interpretations that probably have more RAW support, too).
Summoning may be cheesey and I guess could be boring, but animated hordes of the restless dead is different, somehow?
These are three totally separate arguments. They have nothing to do with each other. You can't lean into #3 as a response to a challenge to your stance on #1 or 2.
But I get it. Some mechanics just don't jive with me. Especially for certain stories. A common one for me is the difference between overt and subtle magic. If I'm going for a less fantastical setting and story than your average D&D game, I'll put a few restrictions on player's spell selection. Charm person, mage armor and divination are a lot easier to write off as "what was that?" than magic missile, invisibility and dimension door. But even then, a careful reflavoring helps a lot (lighting a censer to cast obscuring mist, or using fire-arrows to explain a scorching ray).
Some things just don't fit a game. Enlarge person is such a standard go-to spell, but it's always felt very...Power Rangers? Hokey and cartoonish. The Shield Master feat offends my sensibilities in a similar way.
Summoning can abso harsh the vibe of some of my stories, and it is generally discouraged. And that's on top of it being discouraged in general for (1) bogging down gameplay and (2) being a strong choice for already strong classes.
It's actually taken me a long time to accept necromancy as anything different than summoning. But they're dead, so that made it a little easier for me. Got me past the free will/tyrant hurdle, at least.
I'm trying, man. I have even went out of my to explore things that help summoning... like Fire Music + Lush Summons + Augment Summons... baby steps. I still don't like it, though.
It just doesn't sit well with me. I don't have any reasonable, umm, reason for it outside of it just makes me feel dirty.
It's actually taken me a long time to accept necromancy as anything different than summoning. But they're dead, so that made it a little easier for me. Got me past the free will/tyrant hurdle, at least.
I'm trying, man. I have even went out of my to explore things that help summoning... like Fire Music + Lush Summons + Augment Summons... baby steps. I still don't like it, though.
It just doesn't sit well with me. I don't have any reasonable, umm, reason for it outside of it just makes me feel dirty.
If i can help a bit on the moral side of the problem, while some spell can be interpreted as morally dubious, some spells are totally fine. Planar Ally is one of such spell. The outsider called is sent by your diety and will require payment for the task asked. So there is no free will infringement involved on the part of the caster.
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I actually have no problem with any of spells that require you to bargain with the summoned creature. I kind of love the idea of someone getting themselves into trouble making a deal with a devil they summoned for a favor. Lol.