Age of Ashes: The Good, The Bad, and the Indifferent (Big Spoilers)

[Artofregicide]

Spoilers, obviously.

So among other things, I've read the majority of Paizo APs, modules and scenarios going back to the 3.5 days. But on the off-chance I got to play 2e (still no dice) I held off on reading any of the PF2e AP's.

But I've been roped into running AoA's, and I have some very mixed feelings about it - much like 2e. Be warned, I have Strong Feelings(tm) so much of this will be opinion based.

Having read the plot summary of the books and seen the general art design, I was extremely stoked. Then I did my first read through of all 6 books (skimming, mostly) and was sorely disappointed. There were big promises from the get-go that were pretty regularly unfulfilled.

It's a dragon AP! Well, not really, except at random intervals. The Cult of Dahak just sort of stops being relevant for the most part.

It deals with Hermea and everyone's favorite gold dragon. Yep, but pulls its punches really hard.

Mwangi Expanse! Actually I have really minimal complaints about book 2. Well done, Paizo.

Return to Kintargo! And I thought Hell's Rebels was fan-service.

The Triad goes from a mysterious force to a army of slaver goons. But... the super cool Silver Ravens can't bother defending themselves from this random army of thugs?

Book 4 utterly rocks. No complaints. It would well be worth running stand-alone.

Book 5 is okay. The main villain is pretty uninspiring. Working with the guilds and infiltrating the pyramid are strong positives. Consequences for waiting too long or taking the 15 minute adventuring day are strongly appreciated.

Book 6 is sort of all over the place. Dahak's avatar being the *real* threat feels more like an afterthought, due to his rather restrained agency.

I rather despise the portrayal of the Bumblebrasher goblins in book 1, but that's neither here nor there. Overall, the AP comes off as a sanitized, more kid friendly Golarion. That's probably intentional. But Rise of the Runelords is legendary and I doubt Age of Ashes even passes the bar of remarkable.

From other GMs, I've heard the other 2e APs are also fairly tepid.

All of this criticism keeping in mind that a bunch of talented, intelligent people put a tremendous amount of work into this AP. And what may be a turn off for me is a selling point for other people. This is pure opinion. I wish I could write Age of Ashes off as subpar, fantastic, or even mediocre, but it's a mix of all three - averaging out to good but not great or inspiring.

More ramblings to come.

[evilvolus]

Quote:

But... the super cool Silver Ravens can't bother defending themselves

The Silver Ravens are gone, or at least all the high level ones. They learned of a major threat (to Ravounel? to the world?) rising in the Darklands, and they left to deal with that and haven't been seen in months. With the city's major defenders gone, Laslunn is using a variety of tactics (slaver raids on the coast, hauntings by Barzili Thrune, apparent attacks by Nidalese agents) to destabilize the baby nation in the hopes that what comes after will more profitably match the good old days.

[Deadmanwalking]

Yeah, Book 3 explains why the situation is as it is pretty well, and makes good sense to me. The explanation is in the Gazeteer, but it's there.

And I think Dahak's Avatar being the big bad is pretty well set up in Book 2. You literally get attacked by an echo of it there, hear the story from the Ekujae, and are otherwise set up to expect that. You do move away from Dahak's direct worshipers as enemies for a while thereafter, but I think it still works out. It lacks agency in a direct sense making it more a problem to solve than a person, narratively, but problems to solve still make good stories.

Book 1 I tend to agree is a little weak, but I think the rest holds together quite well both narratively and in terms of in-world logic. I'd peg the AP as a whole as 'Good' but not quite into 'Fantastic'.

I'd also like to say, for the record, that I wouldn't describe either of the other PF2 APs as 'tepid'. Extinction Curse sort of drifts away from its circus focus at higher levels, but otherwise seems pretty solid, and Agents of Edgewatch looks to be a very good AP aside from some of the inherent problems with the PCs being police officers being handled really badly (which is actually pretty easily fixable from the GM side of things).

None are quite on par with the very best PF1 APs, IMO, but all are solid and fun-looking.

[Artofregicide]

The slaver subplot is honestly the weakest part of the AP. It really doesn't add up - slavers don't really profit from direct conflict, yet the Crimson Triad more or less does this. This is the consistently weakest thread, which is a problem because it's the building thread.

My issue is less the lack of a reason so much as the reasoning is bad - apologies if my hyperbole was confusing.

Surely, the "PC" Silver Ravens and perhaps their strongest allies are gone, but I'm running Hell's Rebels concurrently and there are a ton of NPCs who are extremely capable. I just can't see how a group of conceringly incompetent thugs are running rampant despite their hilariously transparent attempts to blame Nidal.

Also, the new devil artwork is... uh, I suppose if the intention is to make them look ridiculous, it's been successful? Saturday Morning Cartoon Ice Devil?

Setting up the "BBEG" who essentially has no real agency until book 6... and is shelved until then? Not sure I'd call that consistency, I'd call that a double bait and switch.

I actually rather like book 1. For all its foibles, it has a lot of charm. I suppose that's also a good description of the AP as a whole. I'd agree Age of Ashes is good, but not great.

I can't speak to EC or AoE personally, just that those I know personally who have experienced them call them "okay" at best. I find that on the forums reviews often tend to be polarized, hyperbolic, and based on theory not play.

Personally, the idea of an AP that presents law enforcement individuals as protagonists and hypothetically heroes is very interesting to me, but it seems exceptionally treacherous terrain (however you fall on current events). I haven't read the AP itself, so I can't speak to it.

Nobody I know is calling any of the new APs classics, nor would run them short of not having any other PF2e material or just being very interested in the themes presented. There's just not the excitement I've seen for certain PF1e AP's, but we're only 3 deep. Plus nagant if the early PF1e APs were highly hit or miss.

[Artofregicide]

So some broad, sweeping changes I plan to include:

Pull back the Crimson Triad's direct involvement, making them more puppet masters than the goon squad and reducing the amount of confrontation with them until book 5. They'll be an ever present threat pulling the strings from the background for never tangible enough to really fight more than a few of their agents - this will give me room to swap out much needed encounters, and give book 5 more punch.

Voz is from Vyre (or at least spent time there), and connected to the Skinsaw cult. She was recruited by and communicates with the leader of the Cult of Barzillai, thus setting up the new book 3 villain.

The new antagonists of book 3 are a group of cultists who worship Barzillai and want to see his lingering spirit raised as an infernal deity of some kind. Whether or not their goal is even achievable and/or there's enough of him left to raise is difficult to say. They're very far from their goal, but they have a lot of support from embittered Thrune Loyalists and are actually locals.

Said villain is none other than Beatricia Thrune, Barzillai's niece who has become rather obsessed with his legacy and retaking her "birthright". She's assisted by the fiendish blue dragon Azumael, who is threw last surviving daughter of Rivozair.

A powerful cabal of dragon cultists of Dahak (literally, they're dragons) is actively working to free the Avatar. They're loosely allied with the Crimson Triad, who share their short term goals but neither side trusts the other. Like the Triad, they're working from the shadows. But as chromatic dragons of some potency, they're also prone to be drawn into combat.

This works out to an additional dragon or two added to each book. I'll probably reign this in as needed. Book 2, 4, and 6 already have significant dragons I don't want to overshadow.

Mengkare is ultimately aware of the Crimson Triad's behavior (not the specifics, just given them full license to do what they need to do). He isn't aware of the pending betrayal, but is absolutely one of BBEGs of the AP. As soon as he becomes aware of the PCs, he works to counterattack them ruthlessly - but they likely don't know he's behind it. Additionally, he doesn't know that the Crimson Triad has been working with the Cult of Dahak - this news very much shakes him.

There's plenty of fiddly bits, foreshadowing, and tweaking, but that's the big changes at the moment.

[Artofregicide]

Worth mention, if Barzillai prevails in my Hell's Rebels Book 4 game, Kintargo will be very, very different.

I don't expect this, the PCs have been building up to his downfall and they're exceptionally clever (plus they have a deep roster of backup characters), but on the off chance they still fail to free Kintargo it'll make for a completely different Age of Ashes book 3.

More likely, they'll see the Glorious Reclamation survive and the possible disintegration of Infernal Cheliax...

[Taja the Barbarian]

Late response here, but one thing to keep in mind if you dial back the Triad's involvement is the fact that their 'contingency plan' explains why the PCs always find the portal key they'll need for the next gate by the end of each adventure.

As for the AP as a whole, I had issues with the following (as a player):

• The campaign backgrounds were kinda unnecessary as they didn't really come into play much. Probably would have been better off just giving the background story text and lore skill as a free bonus above and beyond a normal background.
• The archetypes introduced in the AP are offered far too late for most players to even consider taking even if they happen to meet the prerequisites.
• The first adventure seemed to have a lot of story issues (Breachill put out a call for heroes rather than strolling over to the keep next door and checking the situation out? None of the goblins could make it down the outside wall of the keep and go for help?)
• The second adventure spent far too long in the jungle hexcrawl section.
• The fifth adventure could be miserable if you don't really have the charisma/intellect skills for the Katapesh section (my group never had an intelligence build character and we lost our Sorcerer about halfway through the AP, so the DC 34-36 checks were really painful for +18-22 skills (generally as likely to crit-fail as succeed). My thief ended up taking the Acrobatic Performer at level 16 so we could reliably host a party, and even then I don't think I ever scored a critical success).
• Also in Katapesh, the couple of missions that require you to venture out of town don't seem like they are feasible without magical travel given the fixed time frame (we used our 'genie wish' to cut the return travel time down).
• The Katapesh 'heist' section was fun (my thief having all the appropriate skills at high levels) but apparently not written as clearly as it should have been (our GM was having issues figuring out how many complications to throw at us at the end after we sailed through everything, and I'm still not certain how exactly we snuck all the slaves out).
• Adventure 6's starting gauntlet was problematic for us at first due to our fighter rolling really badly on the initial saves and eating up a lot of our healing before we realized it was a guantlet. The actual aspect at the end was a bit anti-climatic due to its loss of actions (our party was good at melee damage).
• The fight against the council leader was complete misery for us (and the GM) as poor rolls on our part left 75% of the party unable to approach her (really bad for essentially a melee party), our barbarian so badly confused that he eventually nearly beat himself to death (seriously, he just couldn't make the flat check to regain his senses), and our enemy wasn't really able to actually hurt us. Definitely the worst fight in the AP (for us, at least).
• The 'node buffs' seemed mostly useless (or at least very order-dependent): The Fire Resist buff was good, the anti-negative energy buff was good if you hadn't already faced the ghost dragon, the stat buff was only really good if you knew it was coming (since you just hit 20, you aren't likely to have an odd-numbered important stat, so you'll probably end up increasing a stat you don't actually care about too much), and the others just seemed to serve no really purpose in the remaining encounters.
• Ghost Dragon = really nasty encounter for a party without Ghost Touch or the node buff (yeah, we did the nodes in the wrong order, and it killed our fighter).
• The final fight was actually a pretty easy DPS race for us
• The 'Legacy Backgrounds' just seem mostly pointless (mechanically, at least)

[Kevin Mack]

Yeah the goblins dont really add anything to the Ap (Also as I said before nothing really makes them stick out as Goblins as opposed to Gnomes with a green paint and big ear fetish)

(Dont get me wrong I'm actually all for none outsider and none undead not all being evil but all this module proved to me is in order to make it workable for goblins you have to strip out most the stuff that made them pathfinder Goblins)

Also it kinda annoys me they kept that certain aspect about Drow which makes anything else Paizo does with races seem rather hollow.

[xNellynelx]

I think it's worth mentioning that this isn't some sweeping change or errata to the world. Just like first edition, a Goblin (like any humanoid) can be good or evil. The ones who are "wacky, homicidal, and as pyros." Still very much exist. The Bestiary Goblins are CE, and to quote the Bestiary:

"While some goblins are civilized and have worked hard to be considered upstanding members of humanoid communities, most are impetuous and vicious creatures who delight in wreaking havoc."

With "Most" being impetuous and vicious creatures, it doesn't sound like Paizo has done anything to make them less monstrous. What you are seeing, in cases like the AoA Goblins, are the ones who don't want to be put into that box. Goblins always could be good, even in 1st edition. The only thing that's really changed, at least from my perspective, is that society is starting to accept that not all goblins are monsters.

[Artofregicide]

So in my running of AoA, I introduced Voz early - she was just packing things up away her shop before heading out. The PCs came to investigate. They tried threatening her... oh boy, that didn't go so great. She put the fear of the gods in them (not a combat, they just realized they were out of their league).

I also introduced Hellknight boi early. He stopped briefly outside the town hall before the Call happened (out off curiosity mostly) before heading to Hellknight Hill.

So, as written, the fire encounter (great idea) doesn't work mechanically. I decided to have the townsfolk increasingly help out. Also, one PC nearly died in the flames, which was fun. But if I ran the encounter again, I'd rewrite it.

I'm running this PbP, so things are moving slowly - but so far the players are having fun. The group is a kobold, shoony, ysoki, and catfolk. So only one medium character.

Honestly, I'm not opposed to idea of dropping the AP if Strength of Thousands is as good as I hope. We'll see how my players feel, if we get there.

[Artofregicide]

Final note: I'm playing in a RotRL (1e) campaign, and the difference is fundamentally pronounced. Don't get me wrong, the AP has *so* many rough edges, even in the anniversary edition. I'm just really enjoying it so much more.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not in the "why RPGs so PC" or "why are minorities in my RPGs" camp. I think that is what makes Paizo a great company.

The lighter tone and more thoughtful attitude towards minorities has been building for more than a decade, and it's an overall great thing.

Nor am I deluded into thinking that somehow I'm the target audience for all RPGs in existence. Age of Ashes is honestly a great RPG to run for kids, with some changes. And I'm glad Paizo is writing content that is more accessible to a larger swath of the population.

I'm just a contrarian miscreant who likes really dark content. Take that for what you will. But I'm not stupid enough to think my opinion outweighs everyone else's - see the disclaimer at the top. This is all opinion.

[Sunderstone]

Artofregicide wrote:

Final note: I'm playing in a RotRL (1e) campaign, and the difference is fundamentally pronounced. Don't get me wrong, the AP has *so* many rough edges, even in the anniversary edition. I'm just really enjoying it so much more.

I'm just a contrarian miscreant who likes really dark content. Take that for what you will. But I'm not stupid enough to think my opinion outweighs everyone else's - see the disclaimer at the top. This is all opinion.

Overall, same here.

I am still currently GM'ing RotRL in my home game and it's a blast, but we may be jumping to 5E this fall or winter.

[Artofregicide]

Sunderstone wrote:

Artofregicide wrote:

Final note: I'm playing in a RotRL (1e) campaign, and the difference is fundamentally pronounced. Don't get me wrong, the AP has *so* many rough edges, even in the anniversary edition. I'm just really enjoying it so much more.

I'm just a contrarian miscreant who likes really dark content. Take that for what you will. But I'm not stupid enough to think my opinion outweighs everyone else's - see the disclaimer at the top. This is all opinion.

Overall, same here.

I am still currently GM'ing RotRL in my home game and it's a blast, but we may be jumping to 5E this fall or winter.

Generally, for more casual groups I'd suggest PF2e over 5e. But I'm not the biggest fan of 5e as a system, so I'm biased.

I do know there's a conversation somewhere out there for 5e.

[Paulyhedron]

As a player who just finished this campaign 2 weeks go 6/1/24, I have some thoughts.

Back ground: I played through the first 2 books upon release and at times it was almost unplayable with 0 errata, a gm who came from another system (bet you can guess) and very little in the way of balancing. However that character (Elf/Fighter/arcane archer) managed to survive the end of book 2 and all those damn pillars and that meat grinder at the end.

That group split off, the world changed in 2020 and life went on for me. I always wanted to finish the end of the story as I had heard books, 3-5 in particular, were TERRIFIC.

A year and a few months ago I got that chance, I build a character who was starting in the same meat grinder (half elf champion (Pal)) and joined in.

Kicked myself it took a few years to finish what we started, I think 3-5 in Age of Ashes is supreme stuff game wise. really enjoyed plum near everything about them story and mechanics wise. Thankful I built my character with skills in mind.

Book 4 Fires of the Haunted City stood out as among the best Paizo singular book that I have played. Especially of 2nd edition. I have finished this, Quest, and AV. as well as played books 1-4 of Extinction Curse, 1-4 Blood Lords, 1-2 of AoE and just started Seven Dooms (stoked for that one and the upcoming stuff later this year). But yeah book 4 stood out as well as the faction sway in book 5. Just good stuff.

End of book 5 into 6 is perhaps the most unbelievable and grinding non stop 3 weeks of session combats with little break in it I have ever dealt with (my character wrapped in the chains of a Balor, at dying 4 (Diehard feat) after the death throes). to be honest I thought it was the toughest of the entire campaign, as we had two late joiners who were extremely new to the system, and frankly shouldn't have jumped in at that high of a level, but they managed to finish the story so what do I know.

Having hit a level 20 character now I can say, I miss the old level 20 in pf 1 or even 3.5. Even without the theory crafting you just felt way more powerful by then. That being said pf2 plays lightyears better/faster than those two systems.

I miss the darker content as well. But GM can make things as dark as they like I suppose, I tend to go a bit grim in anything that I run anyway as that is the type of story I personally enjoy as well as folk I play with. Not full on edgelord, but some bite for sure. AoA can accomodate that easily.