I've got a little bit of a pickle in my last game with one of my player.
Context:He's falling, with the effect of feather fall, from the top of a cavern, and he needs to redirect him self into an opening on the walls far bellow. He's got an inventive idea that I approve, he wants to push himself with the spells "forceful hand" to get to that cave opening. I felt he taught he would succeed instantly because the hand could not miss the bull rush attempt. So to make sure he can't just succeed without any fails, I think a bit and another player points out he could do a fly check to maneuver in the air. I liked it, made him do a fly check to succeed his entire plan. I thought to myself: "this is a unique situation, quite difficult to do, since he got to aim himself into the hole, get the right angle and all, so I set the DC to 35, since he got +29 it's not that hard." But here the snitch. He argues that the DC is way to hard for that (a bit of that argument had started on misunderstanding or bad interpretation on my part) and that it should not be that hard to do that. After 10 minutes of argumentation, I've cut it short, I had enough of that discussion, since he succeeded anyway, we were going nowhere (not quite understanding each other fully or seeing the points) and losing game time for the other two players. I got the intention to resolve our discussion later, but I wish to seek advice from other players/DM. What could have been the roll or the action taken to succeed his plan and what could have been that DC?
What if any where the wind speeds, and was the DC 35 including any penalties to the roll? Going by the book flying straight up in a tornado requires the equivalent of a DC 36 roll. Technically it is a DC 20 roll with a -16 penalty, but from a practical stand point it is the same thing. The DC you set is only slightly easier than that.
Considering he is blowing a 6th level spell to accomplish this, the DC does seem to be a little high. The spell also gives a +8 STR bonus to the bull rush. Personally I would have allowed him a +8 bonus on the check due to the spell.
this is one reason I tend not to tell my players the DC of their more creative actions.
I would have determined how high up he was at the time of casting, and then set his actual position XYZ relative to the opening. he will fall 60' round per feather fall spell, and the Forceful hand can move him a variable number of feet horizontal per round based on successes (5' plus 5' per 5 over). If he can garner enough horizontal movement in time to get to the opening before his vertical movement would take him past it, then I would allow him to make it to the opening with no further checks.
If he was being lowered on a rope and had to physically push against the wall opposite it would be a DC10 activity. The extra complication of casting a spell and getting the vector right is probably a +5 on the DC, so a DC15 would be appropriate.
Mysterious Stranger wrote: What if any where the wind speeds, and was the DC 35 including any penalties to the roll? Going by the book flying straight up in a tornado requires the equivalent of a DC 36 roll. Technically it is a DC 20 roll with a -16 penalty, but from a practical stand point it is the same thing. The DC you set is only slightly easier than that.
Considering he is blowing a 6th level spell to accomplish this, the DC does seem to be a little high. The spell also gives a +8 STR bonus to the bull rush. Personally I would have allowed him a +8 bonus on the check due to the spell.
I do realize my DC was probably too high, there was no wind since they are in a cavern ( if you are familiar with the adventure path it's jade ragent and they are in the well of demon, doing into the second hole.)
I wanted to make this cool maneuver a single high end check roll, to make things faster, wich failed because of the argumentation. Maybe i should have made several checks instead, bull rushing himself to see the distance he travel with the push, then mabe acrobatic check or fly check for the rest. Giving him a +8 on his check would have made this DC 35 check a babies game to him, having +29 without this bonus from the spell. My whole train of thought with that was mostly the aiming of his own body to get to the entrance he was aiming.
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Asmodee18 wrote: Mysterious Stranger wrote: What if any where the wind speeds, and was the DC 35 including any penalties to the roll? Going by the book flying straight up in a tornado requires the equivalent of a DC 36 roll. Technically it is a DC 20 roll with a -16 penalty, but from a practical stand point it is the same thing. The DC you set is only slightly easier than that.
Considering he is blowing a 6th level spell to accomplish this, the DC does seem to be a little high. The spell also gives a +8 STR bonus to the bull rush. Personally I would have allowed him a +8 bonus on the check due to the spell.
I do realize my DC was probably too high, there was no wind since they are in a cavern ( if you are familiar with the adventure path it's jade ragent and they are in the well of demon, doing into the second hole.)
I wanted to make this cool maneuver a single high end check roll, to make things faster, wich failed because of the argumentation. Maybe i should have made several checks instead, bull rushing himself to see the distance he travel with the push, then mabe acrobatic check or fly check for the rest. Giving him a +8 on his check would have made this DC 35 check a babies game to him, having +29 without this bonus from the spell. My whole train of thought with that was mostly the aiming of his own body to get to the entrance he was aiming. I think your primary mistake was taking the character's skill level into account when deciding the DC. If the character was untrained in the fly skill would you have still set the DC so high?
In effect, you are punishing the player for investing in a skill. From your perspective you are trying to make something challenging but not impossible. But from the player's perspective they have invested heavily in a skill so that tasks like the one described should be trivial. Rather than boosting the DC of challenges that they have invested in. Give them the win and make a variety of challenges that include skill uses that they haven't invested in.
Hugo Rune wrote: Asmodee18 wrote: Mysterious Stranger wrote: What if any where the wind speeds, and was the DC 35 including any penalties to the roll? Going by the book flying straight up in a tornado requires the equivalent of a DC 36 roll. Technically it is a DC 20 roll with a -16 penalty, but from a practical stand point it is the same thing. The DC you set is only slightly easier than that.
Considering he is blowing a 6th level spell to accomplish this, the DC does seem to be a little high. The spell also gives a +8 STR bonus to the bull rush. Personally I would have allowed him a +8 bonus on the check due to the spell.
I do realize my DC was probably too high, there was no wind since they are in a cavern ( if you are familiar with the adventure path it's jade ragent and they are in the well of demon, doing into the second hole.)
I wanted to make this cool maneuver a single high end check roll, to make things faster, wich failed because of the argumentation. Maybe i should have made several checks instead, bull rushing himself to see the distance he travel with the push, then mabe acrobatic check or fly check for the rest. Giving him a +8 on his check would have made this DC 35 check a babies game to him, having +29 without this bonus from the spell. My whole train of thought with that was mostly the aiming of his own body to get to the entrance he was aiming. I think your primary mistake was taking the character's skill level into account when deciding the DC. If the character was untrained in the fly skill would you have still set the DC so high?
In effect, you are punishing the player for investing in a skill. From your perspective you are trying to make something challenging but not impossible. But from the player's perspective they have invested heavily in a skill so that tasks like the one described should be trivial. Rather than boosting the DC of challenges that they have invested in. Give them the win and make a variety of challenges that include skill uses that they... I decided the DC before i knew his total fly bonus, asked him what his bonus was after setting the DC, to see if it was too high. My actual real mistake is to have seen this whole action more difficult then it might have been. I wanted a fast alternative that would mean he could succeed, since many other options would have included possible climb checks( he can't succeed the 30 climb check for that kind of wall with nearly no hold). If he was untrained in fly I would have search for another way to make it possible.
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DC 35 may have been a tad too high, but only just. People arguing for a DC 15 are nuts. He was essentially trying to fire himself into a hole by using the back pressure of a fire house while falling, albeit a little slower than normal. I'd have done a DC 25 or 30 for that sort of stunt and not felt even the tinsiest bit bad about it. If you made an error anywhere, it was only in taking up more game time in the argument about it.
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