Appearing at the ceremony is not strenuous. Fighting against the PCs is.
You could absolutely do what you suggested and end the campaign at the end of book 3 if you wanted
Part of it is probably to extend the narrative. But also - why risk yourself if you don't need to? I tend to get the impression humanoids with class levels don't really know how many each other has
Him not being there is potential plausible deniability?
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In Book 4 - does it say he finds out? I can't remember.
In the case of Tombus and the CCG it is very reasonable that he would find out himself and then want to try and "prove" himself by doing it all himself. The CCG are the kind of the "after thought" group among the supporters.
He could very reasonably want to try an elevate his group above their current standing (well below Dottari and Hell Knights)
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Perhaps he also spent a lot of resources (from Hell) in seizing things originally and the well is running dry?
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Incidentally what controversial parts in the final third? Do you mean books 5 and 6? My campaign died mid book 5
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He's not stupid, but, yes, the strategy can be improved.
The not stupid part: The longer Barzillai Thrune lasts, the better the transformation process is for him. That makes him risk-adverse, but it also makes him a general. His high charisma has ensured that he has a variety of competent lieutenants. Some of them have sub-average stat blocks, but they're still high level for this backwater province. He's got troops that the rebellion doesn't. He has a 24 Wisdom as well. Remember--he knows what the rebellion doesn't--the Temple is going to be working on a magic ritual to summon several pit fiends. He has got to believe that the only way he can lose is if these rebellious nitwits get a lucky critical in combat or, worse yet, ambush him.
He also has a dragon and they don't.
That having been said, I did make some changes to book 4 to improve the war. I had the first event be an assault by devils, hellknights, and troops on the Old Kintargo district. I did some narration to stitch together street encounters by describing how things were going and didn't let the PCs rest. When the PCs hold off the invasion, the forces retreat to Castle Kintargo, the Bridge, and Temple of Asmodeus. Then Barzillai Thrune uses that Orb of Storms in the Temple vault to decimate a massive area of Old Kintargo. That solves your concerns about him not going on offense.
I also narrated the guerrilla war going on in each district to explain why their forces were so spread out. The whole retaliation mechanic also indicates an active posture by his forces, but it's also really hard to win urban warfare. Finally, I had a taking of Castle Kintargo crawl as well.
As for the assault on The Lucky Bones, I put that towards the end of the book. I had that be the result of Aluceda Zhol using her vampire minions using dominate person and more to gradually find the HQ. Also, Zhol was a nemesis of one of my PCs, who was a heretic in her view, so her invasion was personal... but it was also a mislead as her team went below to rescue some captured lieutenants in the Lucky Bones smuggler's level prison. (And, because I have a monk in the party, I re-skinned Tombus as the head of a rival dojo, so he partnered up with Zhol on this prison break and vendetta mission.)
As for Dance of the Damned? I added a ton of devils to that encounter--barbed, cabal, and a sire devil. And the Fake-Barzillai was a simulacrum instead.
Because Barzillai doesn't know what the party's abilities are. He is actually worried they could defeat him. Besides, he can do a grandiose maneuver here to lay blame on the Ravens from the safety of the Temple of Asmodeus.
Chapter 4 is less understandable. You could have that initial assault be a "probing attack" but honestly, it doesn't make much sense - especially with the group being attacked unawares unless they specifically set up a warning system. WTF? I'm sorry but the game basically says "your players are idiots unless you are told otherwise."
There is one possibility. Barzillai Thrune might have started out with a general from southern Cheliax who helped him with those initial strikes "to stamp out any rebellious groups." After the first month goes by without anything big happening, the general is called back to southern Cheliax to deal with the paladin insurgency. Thrune's brilliance goes away with the general who was sent to ensure there was not a Northern Rebellion to go along with what's going on in the south.
Literally, Kintargo was Barzillai's to lose. And he does because he is fundamentally incompetent and at this point surrounded by yes-men.
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I tend to get the impression humanoids with class levels don't really know how many each other has
Because Barzillai doesn't know what the party's abilities are. He is actually worried they could defeat him.
Barzillai is an inquisitor with at-will detect alignment. If he gets them in front of his at the end of Book 2, he'll figure out in a pinch that they're not higher than level 10. It is not reasonable to cast his as legitimately worried over his safety, as opposed to his ease and comfort.
As for the Lucky Bones attack, the reason it's so weak has to be because the hideout is a low-priority target. After the Ruby Massacre, the SRs hold the Opera House, a much more potent seat of power where the Song of Silver can be staged. Even in Old Kintargo the productive, civic, and mercantile sites are elsewhere: the main site of power is on the old waterfront. Few to none of the SRs' supporters, and few to none of their cadre, are likely to be in the Lucky Bones at that point; they'll have gone on the offensive in the streets,and even those that don't, don't likely live at the hideout.
I tend to get the impression humanoids with class levels don't really know how many each other hasBecause Barzillai doesn't know what the party's abilities are. He is actually worried they could defeat him.Barzillai is an inquisitor with at-will detect alignment. If he gets them in front of his at the end of Book 2, he'll figure out in a pinch that they're not higher than level 10. It is not reasonable to cast his as legitimately worried over his safety, as opposed to his ease and comfort.
Unless, of course, the party is high enough level to use spells like Misdirection or the like and do so. After all, a smart party may very well know that Thrune is an Inquisitor. They'd be able to learn quickly that Inquisitors can Detect Alignment. So why not use magic to conceal that alignment when being before him?
If the party had even just two Outsiders (a Tiefling and an Aasimar) of Good (or Chaotic) alignment, then they would detect as Strongly Good (or Chaotic). In theory, that Tiefling Rogue and Aasimar Swashbuckler could be over level 20, and if they used disguises to conceal their race, then Thrune has no idea if they're spellcasters or really really powerful and just not wanting to get swamped by numbers (and bad publicity because killing a couple hundred Dottari in a mass melee is something that people frown upon).
So it makes sense for Thrune to play it safe. He doesn't want to die before his time.
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Hello, i'll had my mix regarding B's incompetence.
It all depends of how your players have acted against him.
If they openly antagonize him in their heroes persona, then B's gotta have a deeper grudge, which will lead to deeper plans and actions. After all, in his mind he's already "won", by having reached all its objectives.
Regarding book 3, it's possible that in the book Barzillai is not at the gala because it's misogyny and social awkwardness is so rampant that he cannot feel himself ok if surrounded by masked women in gala dresses. In my version of the story, B was present at the gala (the bone devil was instead hidden in the orchestra), and was attacked by not other that an evil version of the party, who pretended to have him mortally wounded and thrown downstairs from the pits on the platform, to later announce how they would have murdered all the presents to be "complacent" towards the "late thrune" will.
In book 4 I had him kidnap a Pc's ally, and then systematically strike each of their lesser refuges by his blue dragon ally, while he attacked another one in person with at least 2 npc from the temple. This forced all the pcs forces inside the lucky bones, there they were attacked by a mix of dottari (a few of the loyal ones) and two hellknights troops, backed up by devils - which, unfortunately, do not work well as you would believe when in a chokehold ... Then, after losing castle kingarto, B regrouped inside the temple and started his plans to summon hell itself!
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I had the same concerns as you do, and I don't think the AP gives good answers. But I think I managed to solve them (at least in the eyes of my players) with some additions/redactions and some other emphasis than the books present.
The main things I changed was that I made it more obvious to my players that ruling Ravounel in the "normal" way is not Barzillai's end goal. Successfully performing the Heart's Harvest ritual is, and everything he's done was just a means to this end. After the attack on the Fane is successful and the ritual has been performed, he thinks he's won. and because of that he doesn't care as much about them, or as early, as he really should have.
I started in Hocums were I presented information that Barzillai and Tiarize (who I gave a larger role than the AP does, she was with him for many years) were doing a lot of research at the Irori temple that had nothing to do with taking over the city itself. I had famine strike in book two because Barzillai called all the countryside dottari to Kintrago and bandits took over in the sticks (which the PCs had to solve), while he couldn’t care less about “his” city starving.
I added a large part in book three where the PCs follow in his footsteps during his preparations and uncover parts of his plans (for this I used a modified From Shore to Sea instead of the Dead in the Deep part). And lots of other small clues and indications. Quite soon my players started to ask themselves why he was acting so incoherently, and learnt about the existence of the Soul Anchor earlier than the books present this information, and figured that it might be what he seeked.
I also made him much more sick from the ritual than the book says, and made it clear to the PCs that this was their window of opportunity to establish a strong base. Now or never. All his lieutenants were either backstabbing each other or doing nothing while the big boss was away for two months (big parts of book two and all of three. That’s a part of the reason he is not present himself at the Ruby Masquerade). This meant I scratched the “A grateful city”-ceremony at the end of book two, which I (and many others) think is a plot hole and just a bad scene. I also removed all of the “untouchable heroes”-reasoning since I think it’s silly and also because my players were very secretive for as long as they could so it wouldn’t had made any sense.
As for the attack in book four, I made it clear to the PCs that when he was back in office (his convalescence was of course a secret but the PCs found out) he would attack them with force. So they presumed an attack against the Lucky Bones would be unwinnable at this time, and made arrangements for a quick and safe retreat (I made the Lucky Bones connect to the sewers which book two does not for some reason). So when it happened I could really put it on thick, with cadres of screaming powerful devils attacking, and created a fun retreating battle (saving friends and assets instead of winning the day) Empire Strikes Back-style. This really managed to set the tone for book four in a fun way with the movement scattered and the Ravens forced into momentary hiding.
TL;DR He only cares about the ritual, focuses 100% at it beforehand and relaxes afterwards, which is a mistake since both gives time and room for the Ravens to grow. He gets very weak after it and is out of action for a longer time. That means the gift giving ceremony needs to be cut or changed.
roguerouge—
The ritual to summon the Pit Fiends is AFAICT a desperation measure once Barzillai's essentially lost control of the city and has barricaded himself in the temple. It's described as being "dangerous" and involving the sacrifice of Asmodean believers, so probably not Barzillai's plan A.
Other than that, though, I really like your suggestions, and might use them.
Thanks! My pleasure. I think you're right that the Mephisto Manifestation could be a late add to the strategy. Given its complexity and power, I played it like it was something they knew of by book 3, not from the start.
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It's not clear to me that the rebellion rules actually give any game mechanical benefit for setting up shop in the Lucky Bones.
According to Turn of the Torrent, setting up shop in the Lucky Bones is one of three events that raise the rebellion's maximum rank to 15. After the Ruby Massacre, the maximum rank is raised to 20, but if you like, you can impose what are effectively 5 (or 2, since there were other predicate events) negative levels on the rebellion in terms of actions per week and teams available.
Or don't - Book 4 is far more compressed in time than any previous book, so there shouldn't be more than a couple rebellion turns available anyway.
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These are great ideas Razcar! Some questions:
I may not have read Dead in the Deep carefully enough—does that adventure having them learning things about Barzi, or is it just securing the alliance? Also, totally unfamiliar with From Shore to Sea—can you explain how he used that?
How did you handle the consequences of the Ravens being scattered / forced into hiding?
Thanks! Yes, Dead in the Deep in book three is about securing an alliance with the aquatic elves. And of course defeating a local menace and getting the goodies that comes along with that, as usual.
From Shore to Sea is a great module by Brandon Hodge for level 6 characters, where the heroes explore an Azlanti ruined island. The same kind of monster as in Dead in the Deep is the villain and it's quite easy to slot in. The thing is, I got a problem when presenting early that there is a secret place which Barzillai sought entrance to - my players would seek it too. And that would of course not have worked out early, or been a waste of time. So sure, it is hidden, just as the books also says. But a) I didn't feel that was sufficient, and b) the solution given in book six where a player "feels" where the entrance is I felt was kinda weak.
So I left directions to the temple in Mangvhune's hideout, but also made the entrance have a time lock. It's only open one night a year, when the stars are aligned just right (Nasperiah, the builder of the portal, has an amulet which makes it possible for her to teleport freely in and out, but Barzillai and the PCs don't know that. Plus she's been permanently down there for several years). And a way to find out when that is is by studying the orrery in an observatory on the module's island. The PCs also found the ghost of a mercenary rogue that Barzillai and Tiarise brought with them when they were there to find out their date for entry, who gave the players the needed exposition. All this meant we had a date for this place which they didn't know where it was, but it was a breadcrumb and a part of the mystery, and since the date was almost a year in the future they could lay that part to rest for a while.
I cut down the number of encounters quite much in the module to not make it too long, and just replaced the villain in Dead in the Deep with the one in From Shore to Sea. Worked out great.
As for the scattering, they lost two teams (I had my players flesh out all the teams they recruited themselves with names of the leaders etc), they lost the Lucky Bones of course, and they lost some assets. They split up and hid in various places they had secured during the campaign, one of them being a refurbished Fair Fortune Livery which they ran as a business, and other places connected to the PCs. Then the retaliation continued, as per the book.
The loss of the teams mattered since I had the people of the city muster around the heroes and help them both in taking over districts, with the freedom fighters wearing white handkerchiefs over their faces (i.e "Silver Ravens") and also help them attacking the Asmodean Temple in the finale of book four, with the teams both holding districts the Ravens took over and helping in attacking the temple.
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I agree with you about the weakness of the assault on the PCs HQ seeming weak. But, that’s what’s great about APs, you can modify them to suit your group.
In my campaign, I actually timed that assault to occur on the same night as the Ruby Masquerade. It turned into a two pronged assault on the PCs that they didn’t see coming.
On one hand, they knew the Masquerade was a trap and brought a handful of allies to the fray thinking they’d get the upper hand.
On the other, those left behind were forced to defend the HQ (Which in our campaign was still the Longroads Coffee House because the group expressed little interest in the Lucky Bones.)
This allowed me to pause the Ruby Masquerade just as the combat erupted. The Devils Bells chimed 5 times. I then handed 2 character sheets to each of the players and had them play severely under leveled NPC allies defending the Coffee House. In the end, 3 allies were captured in the assault and the NPCs heard the Bells Chime 5 times. This side scene really helped to guide the PCs through the revolution chapter and gave Barzillai a victory.
So, Barzillai’s apparent “ineptitude” became a touch more believable as a person who stretched their resources a touch too thinly but was able to come out with a victory against the PCs.
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In my campaign, I actually timed that assault to occur on the same night as the Ruby Masquerade. It turned into a two pronged assault on the PCs that they didn’t see coming.
Oh, that's clever. All the moreso because now Barzillai's plot against the PCs doesn't depend on their sticking their heads into his trap. All the better for him if they do, but if they elect to sit tight he has an insurance policy.
I rebuilt ol' BT as a Tyrant Antipaladin, which better serves his behavior and ego. Since I'm converting book 4 to PF2e, I'll be basing him on a Tyrant champion.
In my campaign, I actually timed that assault to occur on the same night as the Ruby Masquerade. It turned into a two pronged assault on the PCs that they didn’t see coming.Oh, that's clever. All the moreso because now Barzillai's plot against the PCs doesn't depend on their sticking their heads into his trap. All the better for him if they do, but if they elect to sit tight he has an insurance policy.
Thanks bud, I see a lot of your advice on here and I take that compliment from you seriously.
It’s worth noting, that if they don’t stick their heads in Barzillai’s trap, Barzillai still wins by pulling off the masquerade and framing the PCs. It’s all about forcing a win for him in one way or another.