WandaVision on Disney+

[Mark Hoover 330]

@J-money847

Spoiler:

It looked to me like ALL of Vision was disintegrating when he left the Hex, not just his head area. Ep 8 revealed Wanda created him whole cloth from seemingly nothing, so it seems like he just started breaking apart slowly outside the Hex.

As for SWORD owning the remains... Hayward could've just been lying. Or maybe there was a provision for this in the Sokovia Accords Tony signed. Either way, after Infinity War the director of SHIELD was gone along with half the world's population; Tony Stark was marooned off world, Cap didn't really see eye to eye with governmental oversight for the Avengers... it may easily have been a wild west type scenario between the 2 movies.

In that kind of environment, with all the chaos the entire globe was likely in, if a government agency claimed authority and took control of the Vision's remains, whether that authority was real or complete fiction, I'm guessing that after the Snap there was potentially less "due process" to track the probate over the technology or whatever.

And finally, if that's the case and SWORD has had Vision's body in their physical possession for several years now, I've got to presume that Hayward's team has disassembled and reassembled The Vision several times by now.

My personal theory is that the horror show SWORD put Wanda though was intentional. They already have The Vision in a lab for testing when Wanda shows up; Hayward is notified as she's crossing the parking lot or just entering the lobby; he scrambles to tell his techs to disassemble the synthezoid below the viewing theater. He keeps Wanda waiting at the front desk, stalling for time until the major components are confirmed disassembled, at which point Hayward directs the guard to pass Wanda to his office.

From there he begins goading Wanda intentionally with specific verbiage that reduces The Vision, her beloved, to a machine. She then looks down on the mess Hayward's made of the remains. The trauma begins to well up in her... trauma that, according to video surveillance, field reports from Hawkeye and other SHIELD agents and perhaps eyewitness testimony, Hayward knows often triggers emotional outbursts and unbridled attacks from Wanda Maximoff.

My theory finishes like this: Hayward knew what he was doing and intentionally tried to provoke a response from Wanda. At the very least, he and any other SWORD agents that lived could use an unprovoked attack by her as leverage to maintain legal custody over her significant other's remains. At most, his techs may have already theorized that Wanda's power was the only thing that could bring the synthezoid back online, so if she lost it in their lab they might be able to jumpstart the process.

I think that's why Hayward tells his guards to stand down in the lab. He NEEDS Wanda to lose control without an obvious threat from SWORD. When she just turns and leaves, he has the footage doctored to appear as if she broke into where the Vison's remains were for any future court evidence he might need.

FYI, that episode was absolutely heartbreaking. I know Disney has a habit of killing off the parents of their protagonists but this was BRUTAL! But what really got me were two moments. 1 was

Spoiler:

the entire bit with Vision on the bed. That dialogue was achingly wonderful

but 2 was

Spoiler:

Vision, appearing in black and white while she was still in color. That one word... "Wanda..." Paul Bettany delivered that one word with all of the beauty and tragedy of the entire series.

I'm not crying as I typed those spoilers. YOU'RE the one who's crying...

[Thomas Seitz]

Joel,

Spoiler:

My guess is while Wanda DID build him a new body, his soul (for a lack of a better term) inhabits his new body enough that it makes his body NOT break down and die. That's just a guess.

I can't answer that but I guess they've been at it a while now... Dunno. Maybe they hired Doctor Doom. :p

I dunno WHY they think that but I do agree there are STRONGER claimants to his remains than SWORD. Secondly Tony and Bruce didn't actually BUILD the Vision so much as they 'assisted' in his birth via the fact his mind is parts of their own. If anyone built him, it was Ultron and Doctor Cho.

[DeathQuaker]

Also responding to Joel:

Spoiler:

Quote:

So Wanda didn't actually steal it like it was shown, which could be doctored security footage of what really happened, and then she re-created him fully with magic. But if that's the case, when he left the Hex, why did it seem that only the bits of him physically restored with magic were being dragged back into the Hex, and only the original part which survived as a corpse was being left behind?

While he was collapsing in the real world, every moment pieces of his entire body were being pulled back into the hex. And then before he could totally collapse and/or get sucked in, Wanda expanded the hex to re-contain him. So think it's consistent in showing that Hex-Vision was constructed by Wanda, with, based on the yellow coloring of the energy that formed him, was actually the energy she absorbed from him when she destroyed the Mind Stone. Given there's Infinity Stone energy powering him, it would take a bit for his body to fully break down even if he is technically "just" a magical construct.

Quote:

Also, in the space of a week, how did SWORD reconstruct his body as much as they did, when it was in pieces when Wanda saw it?

Dialogue had mentioned they had tried to re-assemble and reboot him many times, which suggests that the moment that he was in pieces, this was after several prior assemblies and disassemblies, and they would be able to repeat re-assembly quickly.

Also as Mark Hoover notes, Hayward may have actually pulled him apart on purpose to try to provoke Wanda (though I think he was trying to provoke her in order to see if she could reboot him, rather than try to incriminate her. He just seized the opportunity to create a lie about her stealing him when they discovered she appeared to have created a new Vision in the Hex so he could control what was happening).

Quote:

Finally, what's with the SWORD argument that they legally own it? It was built originally by Tony Stark and Bruce Banner during Age of Ultron, and when Vision died it was in Wakanda. I would think that either the Avengers or Wakanda would have the best legal claim to the body, either due to prior ownership and being the creators of the body in the first place for the Avengers, or because Wakanda lays claim to all Vibranium (and it was in their territory in the first place).

Building on what Mark said, a plausible explanation is that it has something to do with the Sokovia Accords. Vision actually was a signer of the Sokovia Accords--he was the side that agreed to submit to UN oversight. There could have been an unintended consequence that any sentient weapon who has submitted to the authority of the Sokovia Accords would be reverted to SWORD (probably a Sokovia-Accord-sanctioned entity) control if it was deactivated or lost its sentience. Wakanda was signatory to the Sokovia Accords so they would have also agreed to this.

Heck, possibly this is why Vision was on the run in Infinity War--I think most folks assume he is on the run so he can be with Wanda. But that may not have been the only reason. Vision was not on Team Cap's Avengers directly after Civil War--he is mentioned, though not seen, as part of Tony's official Avengers in Spider-Man: Homecoming. Obviously also at some point he was living a normal enough life to purchase property. Something happened between Spider-Man: Homecoming and Infinity War that pushed him to run off and join the other team. Wanda may well have been one reason. But maybe he also switched sides because someone high up was trying to see if they could manipulate his signing of the Sokovia Accords to see if they could take control of him. This may also be one of many reasons why he made sure his will stipulated his wishes for what to do with his body.

[Son of Cayden]

The way they're... [SEVERE WALL OF TEXT WARNING]

Spoiler:

doing the new white vision in the show is actually very, very close to the comics, and I'm very pleasantly surprised where this is going. In the comics the governments of the world dismantled vision completely, down to its parts, after he nearly triggered an armageddon by taking control on the entire world's nukes. If they follow the comics' path, this new vision body is a blank slate, rebuilt from scratch, with no memories/personality of the original vision whatsoever. In the comics, vision really died. The new rebuilt white vision could have regained most of the original's personality, but Power Man refused to imbue his personality into the new vision... The original vision in the comics had received brain patterns of Power Man. After he died, and when Scarlet Witch discovered that a new one had been rebuilt, she went to Power Man and begged him to repeat the process that had created the original Vision... Power Man refused, stating that creating Vision in the first place had been a mistake: Power Man had been in love with Wanda all along, and when he gave his personality as a template for the first Vision, and saw that Wanda fell in love with the robot, he never forgot himself. Upon hearing Power Man's refusal, Wanda flies into a rage and literally drops a mountain on him. Power Man survives. The White Vision ends up getting the personality of his shrink's son, etc. So the second vision is never the same as the original ever again... this is comics, so there's more shennanigans but this is the gist of it. Wanda ends up accepting that fact at some point and hugs it out with the White Vision, and they leave each other for good, Wanda finally accepting that her relationship with Vision is over and letting go...

[Animism]

@Son of Cayden:

You mention Power Man -- don't you mean Wonder Man?

[DeathQuaker]

Although now I kind of want to see a What If? about a doomed romance between Wanda Maximoff and Luke Cage. (Yes, there are reasons why in the main universe it wouldn't work, but as a one-off story it would be fun.) :)

Speculation for Final Episode:

I'm guessing they're going to go for a simpler story in this version. We have Hex-Vision (who is basically Vision's essence/JARVIS-based personality recovered from the Mind Stone) and White Vision, SWORD's weapon. We are either going to have a sad ending where they destroy each other, and Vision will be gone for good, or a happy ending where Hex-Vision transfers himself into White Vision's body and Vision is resurrected.

The latter doesn't necessarily mean Vision and Wanda get back together though. It could be either he is so disturbed by her displays of power that he doesn't want to be with her, or she decides she needs to learn more about herself and her powers before she settles down into a relationship. Either way this leaves her alone to seek help in Doctor Strange 2.

All this said, yes, it's cool how much they've managed to pull from the comics while also not getting quite as convoluted as the comics version (which as complex as this show is, that's saying something).

[Mark Hoover 330]

However they end it... give Wanda a break. Please. I know she's a fictional character and I know that the House of M storyline is a tragedy, but C'mon MCU, have a heart.

Spoiler:

Childhood was a struggle until it all shattered in a flash. Adolescence disappeared in an orphanage, then young adulthood was a hate-fueled nightmare in a cell being alternately almost killed so you can be turned into a living weapon.

Through it all the only HEALTHY relationship is with your brother, and then he's gone in an instant. One bad decision in the field and the world screams your name in hate. You try to join up with the "good guys" only to be jailed, escape, have to fight the synthezoid you love and finally go on the run with that same being.

You get what... 2 years of happiness? All the time running from place to place, looking over your shoulder, living quietly in the shadows. Then the REAL threat you can no longer avoid arrives and with him both you AND your love are extinguished. The only lasting happiness you've known since you were 10 years old is torn away while you're helpless to stop it, then everything ends with the snap of a finger.

But you awaken, 5 years later, to a world in total chaos. You get the chance to at least take some kind of revenge and you travel through a portal to do just that. You fight, you win, and the world is saved! Things are being put on the right track.

Except... now you're at the funeral of a friend, with another reminding you by the side of the lake about how your love was stolen from you. After the funeral you receive a post-dated letter and inside there's a deed... to a house you'll never build... with the one chance at happiness you can't ever have back... and on every tv screen and radio broadcast, the world celebrates their returned loved ones.

You just wanted to have some piece of HIM, to bury him and honor him and gain some kind of closure; build something GOOD out this mountain of pain that's torn you to pieces over, and over, and over again. Letter in hand you speed to SWORD HQ to fulfill your dead lover's last wishes, and there you see his body strewn on the slabs like some horrific Frankenstein's Monster. All the while the "Director" behind you reminds you of everything you've lost, everything you failed.

And finally, when you reach out with this alien power that only ever connected you to one other soul, a connection you didn't even share with your twin brother who also survived the same trial by Stone as you... your Vision isn't there.

Everyone else in the world got their love back. Yours is shredded in pieces, a vacant corpse. There is literally nothing left for you now.

Whether its at the end of this show or at the end of Multiverse of Madness (which Wanda is supposed to guest in), the MCU OWES this woman a happy freaking ending. Cap got one; Tony did. So did Hulk in a way. Hawkeye got his family back even if he lost Nat in the process. Scott lost time with Cassie but at least he gets to hug his little girl again.

Wanda has no home, no country to call her own. The man she loves is a fiction built on a memory while his corpse is about to be unleashed as a weapon. She has the deed to a home she'll never occupy, the failed start of a life she'll never know.

The only thing Wanda Maximoff got as reward for all of her heroism is a never-ending fountain of pain. And when I say heroism...

Think about Wanda all those times she suffered loss in the movies. Her instinct was to lash out with her powers. When Pietro died she collapses to her knees and lets out a blast wave that obliterates the bots around her. In the final fight with Thanos she nearly tore him limb from limb; it took orbital lasers to "rain fire" to get her to stay that execution.

Now think about Wanda, standing in the horrific wreckage of Vision's body in the SWORD lab. She could have dismantled the entire building with a few twiddles of her fingers. Instead she just went back to her car and drove away.

THAT'S heroism. The restraint to not inflict YOUR pain on others. To know right from wrong in such a heartbreaking moment. Wanda has proven over and over in this series that she is at least TRYING to minimize the damage she's doing, she's TRYING so hard to be good. I think the reason she breaks down to Vision just before Fake Pietro arrives is that she's grappling with the dawning realization that what she's doing is wrong.

C'mon K-Feigs, give this woman some kind of peace.

[Quark Blast]

Torture characters, reboot several times, recast, you name it. They'll do what turns the biggest profit in their estimation. You want to watch only hopeful stories you'll have to watch something like PTN.

Good luck!

[Aberzombie]

Well, that last episode was interesting...

Spoiler:

I really hope they aren't setting Agatha up to be a villain. That, while she may have started off kind of bad (or, at least, unable to control her power), in modern times she's actually more a preserve the balance type (if not an actual good guy).

Loved seeing Vision in his rebuilt-in-white, comic book look. That was awesome.

Finally, they give Wanda her "code name". Sweet.

Looking forward to the finale.

[Thomas Seitz]

I'm pretty sure Son of Cayden meant WONDER man. Because like DQ said, not really feeling the idea of Luke Cage aka Power man and Wanda romance. Especially since I keep waiting for Luke and Jessica (Jones)'s kid to show up and turn into Captain America of the Future...

[DeathQuaker]

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

Whether its at the end of this show or at the end of Multiverse of Madness (which Wanda is supposed to guest in), the MCU OWES this woman a happy freaking ending. Cap got one; Tony did. So did Hulk in a way. Hawkeye got his family back even if he lost Nat in the process. Scott lost time with Cassie but at least he gets to hug his little girl again.

What's really frustrating about Cap in particular is that he, in a sense, did much of what Wanda did. While he didn't brainwash anyone, he, having been told that time travel creates parallel timelines and universes, chose to create essentially an entire universe just so he could have That Dance--and treat a grown woman with her own mind and soul like a trophy doll he "deserves," never mind what her own (seemingly generally promising) future may have been. Does that seem so bad? A whole new Earth of Hydra and Kree and racism and suffering, just so he can live his actually sitcom-like dream life in the suburbs, never mind all the new lives and fates he has now created, will be born and die, because of him. Even if he tries to combat Hydra and save Bucky in this timeline--and there seems to be a disagreement even among Marvel personnel whether he does or just lives a quiet life, allowing all hell to break loose slowly warning no one, there are now ramifications for a whole dimension of individuals who wouldn't even exist save for him not getting over this chick he knew for a few weeks and kissed once after 12 years of being with new friends and found-family and in a world that needs him, and moreover friends, like Wanda, who need him. Also, Dr. Strange looked into over 14 million timelines to see how Thanos could lose. He lost in only one timeline--the main MCU timeline. So the timeline Steve creates to be with Peggy will end in a world that never recovers from the Snap. But he is a hero who Got What He Deserves and Wanda is a tortured reformed villain who... gets what she deserves?

F+%% Captain America. He used to be my second favorite Avenger (first is Black Widow). Now I hate him so much (not just because of his ending; he started going downhill for me starting in Civil War. It's bad when you're rooting for Iron Man in the movie that has Captain America's name in the title).

Anyway, where were we?

WandaVision. Great show. And Scarlet Witch was honestly a character I never really latched onto. This show has done a lot to really help me appreciate her and get a better sense of her personality. I agree this episode almost borders on torture-porn (not literally, but in the sense of "enjoying" watching a protagonist suffer) but I really hope we get at least some strong, sweet notes at the end. Some have speculated she will be the villain in Doctor Strange 2 and I really hope not; I hope she seeks out Dr. Strange for magic training--which this episode makes a point of her needing--and is a co-protagonist.

Question: will we ever find out who Woo's guy in Witness Protection is?

Fun random thing: As a once almost music major, I appreciated this analysis of the various sitcom themes in WandaVision. What the video doesn't point out, but the songwriters do in a recent interview, is the tritone pattern in the repeated motif is known as the Devil's Interval...

[dirtypool]

DeathQuaker wrote:

What's really frustrating about Cap in particular is that he, in a sense, did much of what Wanda did. While he didn't brainwash anyone, he, having been told that time travel creates parallel timelines and universes, chose to create essentially an entire universe just so he could have That Dance--

In fairness a lot of what the Peggy/Steve timeline would look like is all supposition on your part.

Steve could have confided in that Peggy and told her of the world in which they were separated. He could have given her a choice. They could have decided together to keep Steve as secret as possible so that the timeline would unfold as closely as possible to the Steve on ice timeline and leave as little impact as possible before he returned to the main timeline.

Knowing Steve’s commitment to freedom and the right to choose, and Peggy’s own difficulty in letting Steve go, this seems more likely than the scenario where he suddenly becomes completely self possessed.

[Thomas Seitz]

I never rooted for Iron Man in Civil War. Then again I didn't in the comic series either...

But I do get DQ's larger point about "Cap why DIDN'T you try to change history??!!"

[dirtypool]

I thought their point was that it was reckless and selfish for him to have changed history and he should have just let well enough alone.

[Vidmaster7]

Ok so the real issue is that if it's different universes cap should of never popped up back in the MCU. It would be a different time line all together. so he shouldn't of seen Main universe falcon or bucky. Everything else wouldn't of mattered because it would of been a different universe where he could of changed things and it wouldn't of effected the universe we saw. I suppose he could of popped back in from his universe to give the talk and then go back somehow. I mean he could of had the gauntlet from that time-line I suppose. For all we know the universe he came from was a utopia created by Steve who immediately started gathering the gems for the alternate time line.

[dirtypool]

Vidmaster7 wrote:

Ok so the real issue is that if it's different universes cap should of never popped up back in the MCU. It would be a different time line all together. so he shouldn't of seen Main universe falcon or bucky. Everything else wouldn't of mattered because it would of been a different universe where he could of changed things and it wouldn't of effected the universe we saw. I suppose he could of popped back in from his universe to give the talk and then go back somehow. I mean he could of had the gauntlet from that time-line I suppose. For all we know the universe he came from was a utopia created by Steve who immediately started gathering the gems for the alternate time line.

He left the main timeline with Banner giving him enough Pym Particles to fulfill the mission of returning each of the Infinty Stones to where they had been taken from and then returning to the prime timeline, so he can’t have gone too crazy with it.

The idea that the Russos have described is that he put all of the stones back in their original places and then returned to the main MCU at a different point in its time. He puts the stone back, lives a life in a branched reality and then likely around the time of Civil War when branched timeline Peggy dies - he pops back to the main timeline. The branched timeline disappears and the MCU has two Steve Rogers. One old, and one in hiding after Civil War.

[Vidmaster7]

Time travel.. always so complicated

[Timemaster7]

Vidmaster7 wrote:

Time travel.. always so complicated

It's not sooo bad.

[Quark Blast]

If there are multiverses, like an unlimited number of them, then all timelines are simply a simulation and who cares who "lives" or "dies" or how?

And if Cap can "fix" the timeline, he can also create a self-contained loop to live out his domestic bliss.... then the loop pinches off and never existed. Or something.

It's not that time travel is complicated, it's that it's whatever the writer needs it to be. And even if the MCU got it "right" (whatever that might mean exactly), then it'd all be undone when it comes time to reboot the franchise to rake in more dough. Duh. <wink>

[Bjørn Røyrvik]

DeathQuaker wrote:

What's really frustrating about Cap in particular is that he, in a sense, did much of what Wanda did. While he didn't brainwash anyone, he, having been told that time travel creates parallel timelines and universes, chose to create essentially an entire universe just so he could have That Dance-

To be fair, the first thing the Avengers did after being told they shouldn't alter the timeline was alter the timeline in drastic ways*. Steve just popping back, hooking up with Peggy some time after Agent Carter s2, and keeping a low profile for 70 years so no one else knows he's around isn't actually a problem.

*I am sure the writers never considered this when writing the movie and any future 'fixes' to this, just like any post-Blip issues, will be because fans pointed it out and they will try to cover their arses.

[DeathQuaker]

I am so, so sorry for creating this tangent. Also, f~@! Captain America, I hate him. He made me create this tangent for one.

Anyway, one nitpick:

dirtypool wrote:

and Peggy’s own difficulty in letting Steve go,

She let him go 6 months after he died; that's what the entirety of Agent Carter Season 1 is about. In Season 2 she's seeing other people and getting on with her life. Like a normal healthy person does. Yes, she keeps the photograph of him. I keep photos of people I loved who died. That's also something that's pretty normal. It's not a sign of difficulty getting over someone.

The rest is largely subject to interpretation, I agree. The point I will stick to is that Steve consciously did a potentially very reckless thing because he refused to cope with his own grief. Wanda unintentionally did a reckless thing because external forces kept happening preventing her from coping with her own grief, which she was actually trying to do. I think its hypocritical to consider Steve's actions unquestionably okay and even a good thing to do (even if you like Steve and want him to be happy, which is fine), but consider Wanda a potential villain in the same light.

And the point was to encourage speculation on the treatment of Wanda's character, not trigger a rehash of what happened in Endgame.

But while we're here, I still really hate Captain America, and no one can take those feelings away from me, so there. :p (Hey, I never said I was good at coping with my grief either.) ETA: And if you love Cap, I am not judging you and I am sure you are a lovely person, and I am sorry if my statements rain on anyone's Marvel parade. I'm just having fun ranting.

[thejeff]

My problem with this take is that time travel metaphysics are weird, basically already contradicted within their own movie anyway and painting Cap as a villain for what was clearly intended by the writers as a uplifting positive epilogue is kind of pointless. It's analyzing comic book movies on a level of depth that's not intended to be there.

Comic book stories break when you do that. Always have.

[dirtypool]

“Death Quaker” wrote:

I think its hypocritical to consider Steve's actions unquestionably okay and even a good thing to do (even if you like Steve and want him to be happy, which is fine), but consider Wanda a potential villain in the same light.

Who though, other than characters working for SWORD, are considering Wanda potentially a villain for what she is doing?

[Tristan d'Ambrosius]

DeathQuaker wrote:

And the point was to encourage speculation on the treatment of Wanda's character, not trigger a rehash of what happened in Endgame.

On this note you did not make this point clear, like at all. Your post read completely as a bash Cap post not as an encourage speculation on the treatment of Wanda post.

[Mark Hoover 330]

I was thinking about something last night, rewatching Ep 8. Why didn't Pietro comfort Wanda after the Mind Stone exposure? Maybe they couldn't show the actor on screen but they didn't even allude to it.

Not only that, but think specifically about Wanda's arc, through all the movies and this show. She's endured loss and tragedy unlike most of the characters in the MCU. But then... so did Pietro. He was shown to be a funny, quipping ladies man who was very caring and protective of his sister. Wanda, even in Age of Ultron, is shown to be detached, prone to violent outbursts...

The "hysterical" woman.

But then this show reminded me of something else: several MALE characters have suffered loss and mental damage in the movies, all have shown growth and positive outcomes from that trauma. Bucky gets a redemption arc; Steve Rogers is ridiculously grounded despite being "on his own" growing up on the streets of Brooklyn in the late 30's/early 40's; Dr Banner has obvious anger management issues but becomes Professor Hulk; Tony Stark has an unhealthy relationship with his parents in the BARF scene and PTSD after the attack on NY but literally becomes a savior of the universe with his final act.

Heck, even LOKI is made to be a sympathetic character by his end at Thanos' hand.

Wanda first appears in AoU as a kid that gets "hysterical" when she suffers a tragedy. While she's had gradually less of these "incidents" the entirety of this show is one long, prolonged episode of that reaction. She hasn't grown beyond her damage in nearly a decade of portrayal on screen.

That's another reason Wanda Maximoff deserves some measure of happy ending. She's gotta show that not just guys in the MCU can recover and persevere and grow out of trauma. She can't JUST be the scared kid from Sokovia her whole life.

[DeathQuaker]

Folks, I will do my best to restrain myself (I keep posting pre-coffee which is a really bad idea), but some free advice: when I'm off on an obvious vent/rant, ignoring me is probably wisest. Replying to my most shouty bits (which I forget in internet text sounds like dead seriousness) just tells me my venting like a crazy person is what people actually want to read and discuss, and that isn't good for me or you. ;) Again it's my responsibility to police my own tone and content, but just a heads up. :)

--------

dirtypool wrote:

“Death Quaker” wrote:

I think its hypocritical to consider Steve's actions unquestionably okay and even a good thing to do (even if you like Steve and want him to be happy, which is fine), but consider Wanda a potential villain in the same light.

Who though, other than characters working for SWORD, are considering Wanda potentially a villain for what she is doing?

Not characters, but vocal members of the audience (not speaking in particular about folks here, but in general viewership).

Although I can see the folks of Westview understandably see Wanda as a villain.

-----

Mark, fascinating food for thought, thank you for your post.

[dirtypool]

DeathQuaker wrote:

Not characters, but vocal members of the audience (not speaking in particular about folks here, but in general viewership).

I've not personally seen that argument anywhere, and if no one here is arguing such - I'm not sure I understand the point in bringing up Cap as a counterargument to something no one is saying.

[Tristan d'Ambrosius]

DeathQuaker wrote:

Folks, I will do my best to restrain myself (I keep posting pre-coffee which is a really bad idea), but some free advice: when I'm off on an obvious vent/rant, ignoring me is probably wisest. Replying to my most shouty bits (which I forget in internet text sounds like dead seriousness) just tells me my venting like a crazy person is what people actually want to read and discuss, and that isn't good for me or you. ;) Again it's my responsibility to police my own tone and content, but just a heads up. :)

-

Um, why? You put something up on a communal messaging forum anyone can interact with it anyway they want as long as they comply within the bounds of the rules of said forum.

And obvious vent/rant is in the eye of the beholder, in that its not obvious to everyone.

And trotting out the pre-coffee excuse? How drole? Just so very. I mean if you need coffee to regulate how you post then make sure you have your coffee. Like maybe over coffee yourself to be safe.

[Ed Reppert]

All this talk of how time travel is messed up, however you try to deal with it, makes me appreciate all the more Niven's Law of Time Travel: In any universe of discourse in which time travel is possible, it will not happen.

:-)

[Feros]

DQ, yeah, I've seen the "Wanda's the villain" statements and arguments out there, and I understand your frustration with the double standard of "Cap builds his fantasy life: hero. Wanda builds her fantasy life: villain."

The ending of this series is going to make a statement, whether it is well done or they fumble the landing, whether the producers like it or not. I just hope they have the understanding to realize what that statement is.

[DeathQuaker]

Feros wrote:

DQ, yeah, I've seen the "Wanda's the villain" statements and arguments out there, and I understand your frustration with the double standard of "Cap builds his fantasy life: hero. Wanda builds her fantasy life: villain."

The ending of this series is going to make a statement, whether it is well done or they fumble the landing, whether the producers like it or not. I just hope they have the understanding to realize what that statement is.

So far there seems to be a lot of quality writing here... with perhaps the notable exception of Hayward being the most cookie-cutter Marvel villain I've ever seen (but maybe there's a surprise there). I think there's a fair chance it is going to end with something effective and meaningful. There is also a chance it might just dive toward something miserable--especially since the whole series is inspired by "House of M" which if I recall correctly was not a load of party funtimes. But I will try to be optimistic. The dialogue writing in this is at least incredible so whatever happens, I expect our heartstrings will be tugged upon as hard as Agatha tugged upon her darkforce-fueled child leashes.

Off topic, to Tristan:

My statements clearly hurt your feelings, given the first two times you ever posted this thread, with some fair amount of passion, was to reply to me. This does not invalidate your feelings in the slightest, but I hope you can understand that this was over a post I really, truly intended to be a throwaway rant. Yes, I chose to post it publicly, as sometimes it feels good to scream into the void, and but it was also public because I did intend to pick up on the point Mark was trying to make somewhere in there, so it was related to the conversation we were having. Still, I really was very surprised when everyone picked up on was the ranty part rather than on the various subjects I wrote related to the actual topic of this subforum (including that awesome music analysis video). I guess I will never understand what people consider to be throwaway comments and what will be considered discussion-worthy (and I know how you feel: I've certainly gotten my hackles raised several times on these boards over someone else's comment that they probably intended in a less serious tone than I picked up on). Anyway, I digress. My intention does not elide the fact that I hurt your feelings, clearly, and I am very sorry I hurt your feelings. I will try to do better next time. And to be clear, as I realize this post could come off as snarky, that is not my intent, and I intend this apology sincerely and hope the rest of your day was filled with joy.

[Quark Blast]

I'm still not convinced that it's about anything other than the money. WandaVision is setting the MCU stage for the next big cash grab. And if they write themselves into the proverbial corner with this TV series, they have Time Travel™ and POOF!, all good.

If you want to argue the writers are taking this seriously.... I'll give my provisional ascent as there's some excellent dialog here and there but overall it's still being done in service to Mammon.

[Thomas Seitz]

MCU isn't a cash grab any more than D&D is. :P

Also, multiverse. :P

[Vidmaster7]

Why are people always so upset when other people try to make money? Like aren't we living in a capitalist society? At least they aren't using child labor or underpaying their employees to the point where they live in poverty. You want to get mad at someone for a cash grab I have a list of multi-billionaires you can start with.

If they make something you enjoy pay for it and enjoy it if you don't enjoy it don't.

Now personally I have felt that comic book Wanda is a villain every since M-day. The avengers back her up and say she is a hero but she perpetrated one of the worst crimes on her own people that even real villains can't touch. (maybe her people depending on back story we are going with)

As far as Wanda vision goes. She is a ticking time bomb. She is more powerful then she can properly handle and her emotions are all a mess because of the tragedy. In all fairness she had a lot of tragedy to hit her and the story is just as much about her dealing with all that and not wanting to let go etc. as it is about anything else in fact probably more so. Is she a villain? eh probably not just distraught. Is she a danger to everyone.. abso-fricken-lutly. We can have some grey area though. I mean more grey area then the first few episodes...

[Son of Cayden]

Animism wrote:

@Son of Cayden:

You mention Power Man -- don't you mean Wonder Man?

Yeah.. not sure who Power Man is or why I said that word... hmmm... is there a chip in my brain?

[Vidmaster7]

Power man is the old name for luke cage and is now the name of Victor Alvarez Whose powers is Chi manipulation.

[Queen Abrogail Thrune I]

Aberzombie wrote:

Well, that last episode was interesting...

** spoiler omitted **
Looking forward to the finale.

Be careful when you deal with those 'Neutral' aligned types like Agatha... they're not all about zen and balance... :)

[Warden Sabo]

Quark Blast wrote:

I'm still not convinced that it's about anything other than the money. WandaVision is setting the MCU stage for the next big cash grab.

*DING DING DING DING DING!* QB wins the Internet! rumors is that Magneto shows up in this Friday's WandaVision season finale... ;)

...and that will lead to big, BIG BUCKS! ;)

[Blosodriette]

Thomas Seitz wrote:

MCU isn't a cash grab any more than D&D is. :P

The tongue in cheek emoticon reassures me that you understand how much, much, much more of a cash grab big Marvel has now become. To think that Marvel was almost bankrupt before they started the movies... lol! what a reversal!

[Mark Hoover 330]

not about Wandavision:

Yes, they rebounded from bankruptcy in large part b/c of the movies. Another infusion of cash was Disney's purchase of the company. However there were also sales and reacquisitions of characters, the merger with ToyBiz and other contributing factors that kept Marvel going.

B/c, y'know, its a business. It was ALWAYS a business. It has ALWAYS been a cash grab. However, that cash grab, before the movies ever came along, gave us Peter David's iconic run on the Hulk, which gave us Professor Hulk... which gave us Mark Ruffalo's performance in Endgame.

It also gave us the many sagas of Wolverine that led in time directly to the success of Fox's X-Men franchise and a good chunk of Hugh Jackman's movie career.

That cash grab yielded Frank Miller's Daredevil, the incredible artwork of Todd McFarlane's Spiderman and subsequently the dynamic rise of a villain named Venom. That cash grab has generated epic, moving, and engrossing dramas that have kept kids and adults glued to the pages of silly, throw-away books about flying fish-man princes in speedos since the 40's.

My point is that, IMO, that cash grab has in turn fostered some truly amazing pop art and storytelling for nearly 90 years. A corporation can claw for money and still house talent that creates real beauty.

But then, maybe Marvel is the entertainment equivalent of McDonalds and Wandavision is the McRib. Perhaps that's ALL the movies have ever been - a cynical calculation of the correct chemical components aimed at delivering empty calories of useless substance that makes its consumers fat and undernourished, all the while separating a mildly-addicted fan base from its money.

I don't see it that way.

A couple nights ago I read Kraven's Last Hunt again. It was a limited series collected into a graphic novel from back in '87. The original intent was for DeMatteis to pen the whole thing in one Spiderman title at the time, but the editors decided to run it across three different books b/c more money. Marvel wanted to use the story to in turn drive sales by tying the piece to Peter Parker's upcoming wedding to Mary Jane Watson, which was yet another cash grab move.

This book is considered one of the best Spiderman stories of all time. In fact, it's a top favorite with comic fans in general. I have cried reading it, with its powerful depictions of the loss of hope, the loss of purpose, depression and the consequences of that disease.

Did Marvel's decisions to dilute the story with Parker's attachment to MJ or spreading it across 6 books? Did their cash-grabby nature ruin the product? No, it is a fine masterpiece of fiction in its own right.

Wandavision, IMO, is not any less of an experience for its corporate producers' incentives. Maybe I'm naïve. I can still enjoy and appreciate the "product" in spite of the cash grab.

This thread is a good place to talk about that experience, the Wandavision experience. This is a good place to post fan theories, geek out about Bettany's humor as the synthezoid, and dissect the horror of Wanda's traumas. This may not be the place to debate the corporate influence of Marvel on their larger business success.

Wanda has spent a lot of years in the comics wavering between villain and hero. The show picks up on these nuances. However, the live-action nature of the show really drives home the tragedy of her life to this point and as a fan I find myself seeing her as neither.

She's a victim. Wanda didn't ask for powers, but supposedly she had them since birth and has never had any real training with them. She has been attacked unprovoked, manipulated by larger forces and vilified by the public and SWORD alike. I feel sorry for her... but at the same time I want the writers to give WANDA the same development they've so far reserved for only male characters.

[dirtypool]

Blosodriette wrote:

The tongue in cheek emoticon reassures me that you understand how much, much, much more of a cash grab big Marvel has now become. To think that Marvel was almost bankrupt before they started the movies... lol! what a reversal!

It's an entertainment company whose sole existence relies on them encouraging you to continually buy their product. It was ALWAYS a cash grab.

There was never a point where it was a pure artistic endeavor that was not for profit.

Also, Marvel's actual bankruptcy was 12 years before the movies. They were on solid ground when Iron Man's production began, and between the release of Iron Man and the Disney acquisition - Marvel Entertainment and Marvel Comics were distinct companies that didn't actually profit share.

Senior leadership like Ike Perlmutter and Avi Arad held leadership positions in both companies, but Marvel Comics only profited from licensed film projects and any cash injections the ME group chose to provide.

[dirtypool]

Ed Reppert wrote:

So, business=cash grab.

Maybe it was inelegant to say that it was "always a cash grab," but businesses are always structured to earn profit. Entertainment businesses built around continuing franchises are structured around the concept that they need to ensure that the audience will return to read the next issue, watch the next episode, see the next movie, play the next module, purchase the next release.

So "setting the MCU stage" is part of what WandaVision has to accomplish. Criticizing the show for doing what it is supposed to do is like criticizing water for being wet.

Ed Reppert wrote:

Capitalism is evil. Good to know.

Not sure anyone actually went that far.

[Quark Blast]

Warden Sabo wrote:

Quark Blast wrote:

I'm still not convinced that it's about anything other than the money. WandaVision is setting the MCU stage for the next big cash grab.

*DING DING DING DING DING!* QB wins the Internet! rumors is that Magneto shows up in this Friday's WandaVision season finale... ;)

...and that will lead to big, BIG BUCKS! ;)

Shrike! Do I have to take it? I mean, who wants the Internet? ####### I hate being right sometimes.

[Tristan d'Ambrosius]

If you believe thusly I've heard you should give Red Markets a try. A TTRPG about economic horror. I haven't played but heard good things.

[Thomas Seitz]

Anyways....I doubt Magneto is showing up...

[Set]

Thomas Seitz wrote:

Anyways....I doubt Magneto is showing up...

Seems premature. Feige has suggested that it will be at least a year before we start seeing mutants.

Dropping in a big name like Magneto at the start of the year, and then following it up with Falcon & Winter Soldier, What If, Black Widow, Loki, Ms. Marvel, Shang-Chi, Spider-Man: Home-something, etc. which *aren't* about mutants would be like waving a tantalizing donut at someone and then serving them many many months of stuff that are manifestly *not* donuts.

Instead of building hype, it's just gonna piss off fans who tune into the next show and see no mutants, since they are gonna feel like WandaVision 'promised' them that mutants were right around the corner...

IMO, the first serious bit of mutants we'll be seeing will be in the Eternals film.

[DeathQuaker]

I know, especially since House of M inspired much of this series (among other comics stories), many fans are hoping somehow Wanda will end the series by saying, instead of "No more mutants,": "No, more mutants."

However, I either don't think they'll go that route or I think at least it would be a mistake for the reason Set states--they don't seem to be quite ready to establish that. What I think they are setting up is the Multiverse, which may eventually pave the way for more mutants, but the focus for now is going to be on magic and on the multiverse, bearing in mind that some of this has been confirmed to lead into Doctor Strange: the Multiverse of Madness, which we all know will feature Wanda, and I doubt the X-Men are going to be in that either.

Some are saying "MUTANTS CONFIRMED" simply by the suggestion that Wanda appeared to have some degree of witch power when she was little, before the Mind Stone gave her a big boost. But I don't think that's right either. Obviously, Agatha has been around since 1693, and she once belonged to a whole coven of witches, and the way she describes Wanda as a "baby witch" and that she is not shocked Wanda had probability hex capability anyway (mind you, I know that was her actual mutant power in the comics at one point). Based on Agatha's dialogue and reaction, people manifesting some minor magical capability is not unusual (in her line of work), and that magical capability seems somewhat uniform--something that appears randomly as a talent and is likely to fade as a child grows older unless they are trained. What is unusual is Wanda unlocking Chaos Magic, which seems to be a result of her interaction with the Mind Stone.

We also know people magical talents are not new to the MCU. Doctor Strange is all about it. My understanding from that film is similarly to what is shown here that some people may have a talent for it, and if they receive training they can use true magic. Strange had innate potential for it, and with training he developed that potential.

I don't know how much the filmverse of the MCU wants to acknowledge Inhumans as they were introduced in AOS and Inhumans (the latter of which most folks want to forget happened), but they are of course another source of anyone displaying superpowers for the time being if you need someone to manifest superpowers randomly anyway.

As someone who NEVER wanted mutants/X-men in the MCU (they and their storylines can get SO complicated they really work better filmwise in their own universe, IMO), the longer they put off any merging of universes the better. Don't take this as a statement against mutants/X-Men. I love the X-Men. Their stories are just so complex and rich that I feel they work better without getting entangled in the equal complexity of the MCU (and I don't even try to follow how they all work together in the comicsverse, I tend to just try to follow whatever it is I'm reading and ignore the rest as best I can).

[Mark Hoover 330]

So... Wanda and Pietro are twins, right? Pietro ALSO survived exposure to the mind stone as well, right? Except, we never get any hints in Wanda's flashback that Pietro had "potential" for speed powers or his own brand of witchcraft.

Follow me on this: Fake Pietro, inside the Hex, is shown to have super speed. One of Wanda's kids has super speed. Real Pietro had super speed. Vision never showed super speed in the movies, but Wanda's magic-created Hex version of Vision DOES have super speed.

Does WANDA give people super speed with her magic? Is the whole reason that her real twin, Pietro, had super speed because she just willed it so after a power boost from the Mind Stone, so she'd have him with her?

I mean, she overheard from the loudspeaker before the mic got cut that everyone who had interacted with the stone before her had died. Maybe she 1. interacted with the stone and got a power boost; 2. feared that Pietro would die if he touched the thing after her; 3. subconsciously gave him some kind of power that manifested as super speed so that she WOULDN'T be alone in her Hydra quarantine.

If that's the case can we expand this insanity further? Could we say that while the DC universe has the "Speed Force" to explain all of the ludicrous super speedsters in their continuity, the MCU can now claim "Chaos Magic" as the basis for their own fasties?

Just noodling around a bit. Feel free to ignore if this is dumb.