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With the current Summoner linking HP and effects from themselves to their Eidolon, and with them sharing action economy, this literally feels like a direct rip from Jojo's Bizarre Adventure, with Eidolons being psychic projections/entities that have special abilities, appearances, interactions, etc., that the user must train and concentrate on to be effective.
Granted, Stands (and their users) have much more varied appearances, niches, abilities, and so on, some of them to the point of being nigh-unstoppable, others borderline useless, I feel that if the Eidolon was to rise to this apparent occasion, their options need to open up more to allow free-form abilities so that players could create a truly unique Stand/Eidolon.
With this concept in mind, do you think this might be biting off a bit more than the game can chew? Can we expect Eidolons and Summoners to realistically embody what is clearly a primary inspiration to the class' design? Or will we have to settle with it being "kind of but not quite really" a Stand?
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I can see the comparison, but the current implementation in no way inhibits my view as my characters Eidolon as an independent being who has entered into a relationship of a nature to places some constraints on it - such as the bonded health.
I dont agree that Eidolons are being forced into this particular "mold" or form.
Can we expect Eidolons and Summoners to realistically embody what is clearly a primary inspiration to the class' design? Or will we have to settle with it being "kind of but not quite really" a Stand?
I will point out that fully autonomous Stands, such as Notorious BIG and Wonder of U, are very much not expected to be on the list of things buildable. And that's even putting aside the reality warpers like Made in Heaven and the ones that are more like superpowers like Tusk.
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They seem like summoners to me.
Not sure how training and concentration factor in, they certain aren't required, nor are eidolon a 'psychic projections'
I'm not sure what the issue is beyond summoners don't really want to use summon spells, which is missing the Shakespearean rose for its 'any other name,' imo. Druids are nothing like their historical namesake, clerics don't clerk, etc.
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Jojo's Bizarre Adventure
And my interest suddenly fades after reading this.
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Interest in the summoner class or interest in reading this post?Jojo's Bizarre AdventureAnd my interest suddenly fades after reading this.
Yes. It just murdered all of my interest in general. I try to think of Jojo as little as humanly possible.
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Jojo's Bizarre AdventureAnd my interest suddenly fades after reading this.
We disagree here gray.
It's my favorite anime of all time and how I will imagine every summoner I ever make
I can see the comparison, but the current implementation in no way inhibits my view as my characters Eidolon as an independent being who has entered into a relationship of a nature to places some constraints on it - such as the bonded health.
I dont agree that Eidolons are being forced into this particular "mold" or form.
Some Stands do have their own sentience as well, though those are rarer than the others, which just do as the user wills. So, much like an Eidolon, a Stand can function as you describe, and actually has done so before, technically some even without a Summoner to control them. (They would be more like Outsiders in this case, which is also an interpretation of Stands based on what information about Stands you have read about.)
Never really said they were forced, but this does form a "cannot unsee" concept to me. I've seen most of the episodes featuring the Stands, and I literally cannot unsee how the Summoner, in its current form, is not a Stand user when a lot of the mechanics and implementations are identical in concept.
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Do you like Persona? Just think of them as a persona.
Persona, Final Fantasy, blue dragon, Kingdom hearts, Shin Megami Tensei, Star Ocean, Breathe of Fire, Tales of Phantasia, ect...
We disagree here gray.
It's my favorite anime of all time and how I will imagine every summoner I ever make
Ugh... For the life of me, I can't understand why some people love this with a passion. I've had someone SUPER excited to have me watch it and... well, I was less than thrilled and after sitting through a few episodes I never looked back: those are minutes of my life I'll never get back. It really did nothing for me and every time I hear a jojo reference, part of my brain just shuts of to protect myself from the feeling of meh...
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I can see the comparison, but the current implementation in no way inhibits my view as my characters Eidolon as an independent being who has entered into a relationship of a nature to places some constraints on it - such as the bonded health.
I dont agree that Eidolons are being forced into this particular "mold" or form.
Some Stands do have their own sentience as well, though those are rarer than the others, which just do as the user wills. So, much like an Eidolon, a Stand can function as you describe, and actually has done so before, technically some even without a Summoner to control them. (They would be more like Outsiders in this case, which is also an interpretation of Stands based on what information about Stands you have read about.)
Never really said they were forced, but this does form a "cannot unsee" concept to me. I've seen most of the episodes featuring the Stands, and I literally cannot unsee how the Summoner, in its current form, is not a Stand user when a lot of the mechanics and implementations are identical in concept.
As someone's whose watched all the anime so far I agree. They are definitely stand user's in terms of application. Wich for me as I love the show, is a net positive even if I'm not sold on the shared hp.
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Other than Lifelink (which we had in P1) and the sharing actions (which any pet class is using a variation of in P2), how does the Playtest Summonner read like something out of JoJo all of sudden instead of the Summoner, more or less, "path" that we've had?
Well, remember that anything which damages or affects the Stand applies the user as well. So it's more of a Lifelink+ in that sense, since conditions, penalties, etc. all apply equally to both. Eidolon gets Drained 1? So does the Summoner. Same with missing limbs/amputations, senses, etc. Can't see? Neither can the Eidolon. Missing an arm? So is the Eidolon. They are a lot more in common than you think, taking all kinds of forms, having all kinds of abilities, being psychic projections that affect the material plane, and so on. (Okay, maybe that last part isn't quite up to par, but it's about as believable as "Because magic" in PF2.) Really, outside of "Only stand users can see and defeat other stand users," and "Summoner can cast some spells but not really, and isn't completely helpless without their Eidolon unless it's also dead," it's basically the same concept.
In a lot of the JoJo scenes where Stands are used, it usually requires a concentration of sorts from the character, to the point that they aren't physically doing anything else besides controlling their Stand. Conversely, Eidolons in PF2 are infinitely less powerful (no freezing time, flurry of blows, explosions, and other crazy shenanigans), but give Summoners more innate power (via spellcasting and cantrips). However, in the same vein that players can play "sentient outsider that willingly serves the Summoner," another player can play "Psychic projection with a crazy form/design, name, and special abilities, that requires extreme concentration to manifest and control."
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Jojo's Bizarre AdventureAnd my interest suddenly fades after reading this.
I really only mentioned it for the similarities. I'm not really that keen on it either, but I watch(ed) it to see what all the references and hubub was about in other videos and topics I've seen. I didn't really get much out of it, but now I'm not out of the loop on those things, unlike the rest of my life...
But yeah, I will definitely say that while it's something that I believe Paizo can do in this game, it's something that I didn't expect to be attached to a Summoner of all classes, hence why I'm a bit perturbed and also a little curious as to whether the intent behind this design was or wasn't "inspired."
I will be very interested to see the Dedication feats to see if they grant an Eidolon as well as access to feats and abilities so that even a Fighter could be a Stand Us-I mean, have an Eidolon to control much like a Summoner does.
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Other than Lifelink (which we had in P1) and the sharing actions (which any pet class is using a variation of in P2), how does the Playtest Summonner read like something out of JoJo all of sudden instead of the Summoner, more or less, "path" that we've had?Well, remember that anything which damages or affects the Stand applies the user as well. So it's more of a Lifelink+ in that sense, since conditions, penalties, etc. all apply equally to both. Eidolon gets Drained 1? So does the Summoner. Same with missing limbs/amputations, senses, etc. Can't see? Neither can the Eidolon. Missing an arm? So is the Eidolon. They are a lot more in common than you think, taking all kinds of forms, having all kinds of abilities, being psychic projections that affect the material plane, and so on. (Okay, maybe that last part isn't quite up to par, but it's about as believable as "Because magic" in PF2.) Really, outside of "Only stand users can see and defeat other stand users," and "Summoner can cast some spells but not really, and isn't completely helpless without their Eidolon unless it's also dead," it's basically the same concept.
In a lot of the JoJo scenes where Stands are used, it usually requires a concentration of sorts from the character, to the point that they aren't physically doing anything else besides controlling their Stand. Conversely, Eidolons in PF2 are infinitely less powerful (no freezing time, flurry of blows, explosions, and other crazy shenanigans), but give Summoners more innate power (via spellcasting and cantrips). However, in the same vein that players can play "sentient outsider that willingly serves the Summoner," another player can play "Psychic projection with a crazy form/design, name, and special abilities, that requires extreme concentration to manifest and control."
You're gonna need to point where it says if an Eidolon loses a limb so does the Summoner and vice-versa.
They share damage, extending that to losing limbs is an extreme assumption.
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I suppose the rules are unclear. Then again, amputation isn't really something that happens in this game except for cinematic/storytelling purposes, so I imagine such a thing isn't going to come up. (No mechanics for it as far as I know.)
That being said, if the connection of a Summoner to its Eidolon is this strict, I don't see a GM being unreasonable to rule that the limbs being severed are shared.
If this is something that can be represented with mechanics, then this is something that I hope the playtest works to address, because even without something like this coming up, there are plenty of "What if" scenarios that Summoners and Eidolons bring up that need clarification.
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upon reading the question in the thread title
What a beautiful duwang.
chews
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Do you like Persona? Just think of them as a persona.Persona, Final Fantasy, blue dragon, Kingdom hearts, Shin Megami Tensei, Star Ocean, Breathe of Fire, Tales of Phantasia, ect...
The point was basically that Persona is pretty much just Jojo Stands without calling them such. Personas might be more like Eidolons than Jojo stands are, as Jojo stands are directly confirmed to be a projection of one's soul, whereas Personas seem a lot more like what Paizo is really going for here as a soulbond with another entity. (If I have that wrong, blame my lack of a playstation and Atlus's hard line on censoring the series online.) If anything, its just another thing Summoners can be likened to or flavored to be, in the same way another poster on the Playtest mentioned they just built TK from Digimon and their buddy was playing Kaiba from Yugioh summoning a Blue-Eyes White Dragon. Summoning a combat partner to fight alongside/for you is a popular concept in culture, so saying the Summoner concept is ruined just because of Jojo existing is kind of like saying you can't enjoy Dracula because Twilight exists; just ignore Edward Cullen while building your Dhamphir and make Bela Lugosi instead.
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saying the Summoner concept is ruined just because of Jojo existing is kind of like saying you can't enjoy Dracula because Twilight exists
Take it as you will: linking jojo to the concept makes me less interested in the concept. And Twilight did indeed lessen my interest in vampire content for a while because it was so awful. So, so awful. That's how association works. Once I bleach my brain and get the bad jojo images out of my head I might be more motivated.
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saying the Summoner concept is ruined just because of Jojo existing is kind of like saying you can't enjoy Dracula because Twilight existsTake it as you will: linking jojo to the concept makes me less interested in the concept. And Twilight did indeed lessen my interest in vampire content for a while because it was so awful. So, so awful. That's how association works. Once I bleach my brain and get the bad jojo images out of my head I might be more motivated.
YariYari
YariYarisaying the Summoner concept is ruined just because of Jojo existing is kind of like saying you can't enjoy Dracula because Twilight existsTake it as you will: linking jojo to the concept makes me less interested in the concept. And Twilight did indeed lessen my interest in vampire content for a while because it was so awful. So, so awful. That's how association works. Once I bleach my brain and get the bad jojo images out of my head I might be more motivated.
Do you mean 'Yare yare'? If not, I'm confused.
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Do you mean 'Yare yare'? If not, I'm confused.YariYarisaying the Summoner concept is ruined just because of Jojo existing is kind of like saying you can't enjoy Dracula because Twilight existsTake it as you will: linking jojo to the concept makes me less interested in the concept. And Twilight did indeed lessen my interest in vampire content for a while because it was so awful. So, so awful. That's how association works. Once I bleach my brain and get the bad jojo images out of my head I might be more motivated.
The main character of JJBA Part 3 says "yare yare daze" as something close to a catchphrase.
Do you mean 'Yare yare'? If not, I'm confused.YariYarisaying the Summoner concept is ruined just because of Jojo existing is kind of like saying you can't enjoy Dracula because Twilight existsTake it as you will: linking jojo to the concept makes me less interested in the concept. And Twilight did indeed lessen my interest in vampire content for a while because it was so awful. So, so awful. That's how association works. Once I bleach my brain and get the bad jojo images out of my head I might be more motivated.
I never sed I spel gud
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I have noticed from playing with people who watch JoJo's that they seem to see every spell and ability as being a stand from JoJos, no matter the class or game system.
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I feel like I would need to know more about anime to make sense of this thread.
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I feel like I would need to know more about anime to make sense of this thread.
You still have a chance to escape unsullied...
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I have noticed from playing with people who watch JoJo's that they seem to see every spell and ability as being a stand from JoJos, no matter the class or game system.
Depends a lot on how "in the weeds" someone is. A lot of people just treat it like any other IP, maybe pulling a reference or a concept from it here or there. I've never personally built a character in Pathfinder that was a direct reference, but I can attest to Yoshikage Kira being cool enough that I had at least one attempt at building a detonation caster in PF1. I think the only thing that makes it a bit more common in the Jojo community is that its essentially a superpower-of-the-week series that's been ongoing for 30-40 years, so if you are the kind of person that likes calling out "that reminds me of X!" moments, then there's a lot of material you can pull from.
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I have noticed from playing with people who watch JoJo's that they seem to see every spell and ability as being a stand from JoJos, no matter the class or game system.
Probably because it's a seminal work in the Japanese comic scene. Look around and you'll see that a large number of the big IPs have heavy influence from it. Everything is a Stand because it set the expectation for shounen manga, or at least every weeb making stuff for the last 20 years grew up reading it.
It's running into the same problem the John Carter movie had where the OG work ends up looking derivative because everything after did the same things and some did it better.
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Frankly Persona is a better comparison if only because the Summoner is a chump without their eidolon. All the dudes in Jojo are jacked.
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Frankly Persona is a better comparison if only because the Summoner is a chump without their eidolon. All the dudes in Jojo are jacked.
yes, but a lot of that is just from the heavy aerobic exercise they get from all that posing at odd, dramatic angles all day.
On a side note, I am more impressed by how jacked everyone is during the post apocalypse in Fist of the North Star. You need good protein and a lot of exorcise for that, which seems like high commodities in a nuclear wasteland. Given the personality of the standard grunt in that series, I assume they get like that by ax murdering and eating a lot of people.
yes, but a lot of that is just from the heavy aerobic exercise they get from all that posing at odd, dramatic angles all day.
I think I threw up in my mouth a little... All this jojo talk is like hearing about all the good things about jar jar binks over and over gain...
Frankly Persona is a better comparison if only because the Summoner is a chump without their eidolon. All the dudes in Jojo are jacked.
yes, lets go with that. ;)
yes, but a lot of that is just from the heavy aerobic exercise they get from all that posing at odd, dramatic angles all day.I think I threw up in my mouth a little... All this jojo talk is like hearing about all the good things about jar jar binks over and over gain...
Frankly Persona is a better comparison if only because the Summoner is a chump without their eidolon. All the dudes in Jojo are jacked.yes, lets go with that. ;)
Nniiccee
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Hehe, I knew someone was going to bring up Jojo, especially because of the HP sharing... (and I managed to resist the urge somehow, wow...)
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yes, but a lot of that is just from the heavy aerobic exercise they get from all that posing at odd, dramatic angles all day.I think I threw up in my mouth a little... All this jojo talk is like hearing about all the good things about jar jar binks over and over gain...
Frankly Persona is a better comparison if only because the Summoner is a chump without their eidolon. All the dudes in Jojo are jacked.yes, lets go with that. ;)
Yousa no like Jar Jar?
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Yousa no like Jar Jar?yes, but a lot of that is just from the heavy aerobic exercise they get from all that posing at odd, dramatic angles all day.I think I threw up in my mouth a little... All this jojo talk is like hearing about all the good things about jar jar binks over and over gain...
Frankly Persona is a better comparison if only because the Summoner is a chump without their eidolon. All the dudes in Jojo are jacked.yes, lets go with that. ;)
Honestly the only reason I don't outright hate Jar-Jar is probably because I remember the Clone Wars animated series more strongly than I do the movies he appeared in. He was still a dumb comic relief character, but the series was much better at using him in one-off episodes than the movies were at having him ruin the tone at every opportunity.
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While I'm don't have any problem with the fact that JoJo exists or that it has fans... I just don't understand them... like at all.
Not to be degrading or anything but the fandom for this and the folks who use the term "normies" unironically, in my personal experience, pretty much makes a perfect circle when drawn as a Venn diagram. The very same crowd that caused me to flee the RPG scene at my FLGS because they'd show up with a half-baked furry costume and mime licking their "paws" whenever their anthro PCs spoke while hitting on EVERY non-opponent NPC in a game regardless of their race/ancestry or gender. Maybe I'm just too old for that kinda thing but these kids just make me uncomfortable and seem to revel in the fact that they're doing as much.
That said, is it "good" that people can play characters that resemble those from fiction that they like? Absolutely 100% without a doubt, I would simply never angle my own PCs flavor in that direction and might very well try to kindly dissuade any players in my home game from doing so.