(Advice / Spoilers) Full-Powered Karzoug vs. my players

[Dragon Prime]

Well I have been running some friends of mine through RotRLs since 2018 and last month they finally reached Xin-Shalast. Now at some point in my game, after book 3 maybe, the party kinda stopped being challenged by primary bad guys. One player has so many one hit critical kills against an untouched bad guy its ridiculous, so I came to the decision Karzoug needs to be fully powered up to challenge them.

Now I know the books stats Karzoug without his mythic levels (since that didn't exist yet when the AP came out) but I found a way to state how he's gotten all of his power back (wizard 20/archmage 10). The party during the time of this game took several months to craft/upgrade gear so that was all I needed to clear this idea, but I am not sure what to give ability-wise so I was hoping for some ideas to take the wind out of their sails because the wizard-king is just waiting and watching to finish them off in his private quarters.

Here is the party make up at level 16
1. Human cleric of Pharasma/Soul Warden (party healer/buffer)

2. Half-Elf Unchained Rogue/Heretic Inquisitor of Hanspur (party skill monkey/ dimensional agility specialist)

3. Dwarf Tortured Crusader/Tempered Champion Paladin of Torag (the one-hit-killer)

4. Bugbear (formerly an elf before a reincarnate spell) Abjuration Specialist Wizard/Ranger/Cyphermage (general spellcaster shenanigans)

plus there are two cohorts in the party

1. Dwarf Warpriest/Tower-Shield Specialist Fighter (buffer/healing/AoO soaker)

2. Gnome Bard/Oracle (buffer/healing/knowledge specialist/magical shenanigans)

So what would suggestions to modify the final encounter to make it last more than four/five rounds against these people?

[Tangent101]

A couple Contingency spells to keep spamming Mirror Image, and Mythic Spell Turning. Those two alone will essentially shut down a significant part of the fight against Karzoug. You could also add in a second Rune Giant (or have all the giants be Rune Giants) and have the Blue Dragon be an Ancient one. Mind you, this could also turn this into a TPK.

[Mudfoot]

ML10 is absurdly OP for any purpose. If you run him to the full extent of his abilities, the party would have no chance. ML3 ought to be plenty. Just the initiative advantages from Mythic would let him take out 2 PCs a round of he spams the high-level stuff.

Anyway, the rule for making a BBEG fight longer and more memorable is always to add mooks, not to bump up the BBEG himself very much.

[Askar Avari]

Just want to double-up what Mudfoot says here. Canonically, Karzoug never achieved any level of mythic power, and he's plenty lethal without it (especially given his Greater Quicken Rod). Furthermore, MR 10 (Archmage) is just obscenely effective at... everything.

One thing I can advise, if you think Karzoug won't be tough enough as-is, is to add more useful NPCs to his side. The main one I'd recommend is Most High Ceoptra, who can add a lot of spell variety and turn into a big threat right around the time Karzoug is out of charges on his Quicken Rod.

And a few smaller notes:

Specifics:

- Karzoug will likely cast fiery body at the end of round 2 of his first time stop. This will render him immune to critical hits as well as a lot of easy kill effects.

- Combine this with protection from cold and he'll be immune or resistant to most forms of energy damage.

- An easier way to 'beef up' Karzoug without changing the balance so drastically is to improve his gear and change up his spell list to better counter your party's tactics.

My party is... tough (rolled stats, averaging a 24-point-buy), with 5 PCs and 2 cohorts (maybe 3 by the time they reach Xin-Shalast), and here's how I'm planning to change up the battle.

My Plans:

- Giants have improved attack, AC, and saves according to Automatic Bonus Progression guidelines, using their CR-1 as a guideline.

- Karzoug has a magic item in every slot, and his point-buy is done a little bit better to give him 2 more points of Wisdom.

- Karzoug has the Bouncing Spell feat to add to his single-target kill spells (Flesh to Stone, Baleful Polymorph)

- Adding an additional Rune Giant and an additional Storm Warden.

- Karzoug has a the Well-Prepared Capstone, and has Greater False Life and Countless Eyes as all-day buffs as a result.

Then again, I'm not necessarily expecting my party to fight Karzoug, given they currently work for him.

[Dragon Prime]

Good ideas overall but I'd wanna give him a bit of mythic to grant him the beyond morality ability at least to shut down the paladin from getting smites on him, especially last stand which is smite on steroids and has one hit killed many key bad guys with a critical power attack hit with his warhammer.

Also with the UcR/Inq with his ability to be almost anywhere on the map with dim door, and if the paladin is next to him he often joins the trip.

Another thing I gotta overcome that since the party has fought so many spellcasters so the usual strategy for them they have developed over the game is dimensional lock the bad guy, spam dispel/greater dispel magic to remove every buff, then proceed with "murder", and rinse and repeat.

[GeraintElberion]

The paladin has two archetypes that don’t stack.

They both modify divine bond.

[Askar Avari]

Dragon Prime wrote:

Good ideas overall but I'd wanna give him a bit of mythic to grant him the beyond morality ability at least to shut down the paladin from getting smites on him, especially last stand which is smite on steroids and has one hit killed many key bad guys with a critical power attack hit with his warhammer.

Right, well, you're free not to take any advice you get on here. Rebuilding the final encounter to specifically shut down individual players seems a little rude, but if you've been having that much trouble dealing with Smite Evil, I suppose it makes sense.

In general, it sounds like you have a party that is playing smartly and consistently in order to win, and I don't think you really need to dive deep into Mythic to handle it. For instance, there's nothing stopping Karzoug from using dimensional lock himself (or simply flying out of a dimensional lock the party puts up. If Karzoug thinks he's going to get blasted with greater dispel magic, he can easily put up spell turning (as I'd suggest he do anyway). If the paladin has been smiting his minions, Karzoug can always put up an unholy ward to soak some of the damage.

Best of luck with whatever approach you take though.

[Dragon Prime]

Askar Avari wrote:

Dragon Prime wrote:

Good ideas overall but I'd wanna give him a bit of mythic to grant him the beyond morality ability at least to shut down the paladin from getting smites on him, especially last stand which is smite on steroids and has one hit killed many key bad guys with a critical power attack hit with his warhammer.

Right, well, you're free not to take any advice you get on here. Rebuilding the final encounter to specifically shut down individual players seems a little rude, but if you've been having that much trouble dealing with Smite Evil, I suppose it makes sense.

In general, it sounds like you have a party that is playing smartly and consistently in order to win, and I don't think you really need to dive deep into Mythic to handle it. For instance, there's nothing stopping Karzoug from using dimensional lock himself (or simply flying out of a dimensional lock the party puts up. If Karzoug thinks he's going to get blasted with greater dispel magic, he can easily put up spell turning (as I'd suggest he do anyway). If the paladin has been smiting his minions, Karzoug can always put up an unholy ward to soak some of the damage.

Best of luck with whatever approach you take though.

I do appreciate all thr ideas and I need a day or two to workshop them but when it feels like everything they fought after book 3 might as well as be made of paper which for me is frustrating. Yes I want them to experience the story but when a fight is over before round 2 really takes the wind out of my sails.

Also just realized a mistake on my part but I said dimensional lock when I ment dimensional anchor.

Thank you everyone who has made suggestions so far.

[BishopMcQ]

You can also give the Eye of Avarice an effect like Forbiddance, which Karzoug and a few of his most trusted are immune to.

A disjunction pulse trap which triggers as soon as they arrive on the platform will strip away buff spells and possibly render magic items inert.

Have derghodaemons bound into the floor of the platform that they arrive on, which would expose the heroes to the aura of the daemons.

All of these tactics are designed to weaken other arcane spellcasters who Karzoug and the Runelords would likely rate as the highest threat to their existence, seeing as how they waged war against one another.

If you want to target tactics that Karzoug has seen the heroes use against his own lackeys, he could prepare his defenses like Spell Immunity (Dimensional Anchor). Use Repulsion to prevent closing to melee. Give the dragon a greater gauntlet of rust or adamantine claws and Improved Sunder. Any heroes that can't fly get bull rushed off platforms and into the lava below.

[Davor Firetusk]

In my game Karzoug clearly new the PCs were coming (as he really should in just about every case). And partially for my own sanity I prerolled all the initiatives of the NPCs, I may have also made sure Karzoug got the highest of those rolls. I also pre-rolled his timestop duration. This let me optimize first round tactics including having the Rune Giants waiting right where the PCs would come out and ready to awesome blow the PCs right through the Prismatic Wall that Karzoug was going to drop in the timestop. This party had also basically steam rolled just about every encounter in the back half of the AP (except in Xin Shalast when they ended up chaining and inadvertently triggering multiple encounters.

I never got to pull off the combo as it turned out because the bard just beat Karzoug on initiative and wisely used Bard's escape to reposition folks. The prep still paid off as I was still able to do some significant divide and conquer on the party. It ended up being super memorable for everyone since by round 2 everyone was starting to dig deep for second and third options to sort out the chaos. Six hours later the PCs emerged victorious only modestly scathed, but realizing how bad it might have been if the bard hadn't won initiative.

[Dragon Prime]

Alright taking in the suggestions I have made the following changes:
1. I've switched the 2 wardens of thunder for 2 wardens of runes from the previous map to prevent the party from gaining allies in the fight.

2. Upon arrived in the Eye of Avarice the party will immediately trigger a greater dispel magic trap (CL 20 and made with a Wish) to hopefully remove spell buffs (both permanencied and temporary) and maybe shut off some equipment, Karzoug will still have a Disjunction ready but save that for someone who proves to be really dangerous and in his face.

3. The four pillars of gold around the Eye have a Dimensional Anchor trap (also CL 20 made with a Wish, he had a month or so to prep) that will reset every 1d6 rounds maybe.

4. Most High Ceoptra is next to Karzoug to proved her magic to assist her master. Might also add Kaleb for more arcane fire power but that might overdo it.

5. Using the suggest spell buffs like Fiery Body combined with Protection from Cold to narrow down what types of damage can harm him, plus spell immunity and spell turning, but not bothering with stoneskin as the heavy hitters already have adamantine weapons and the spell slot could be better used in other ways

There are a few other small ideas I am working on, like maybe giving him a persistent metamagic rod. I can't count the times how that particular M.M. basically ended encounters in other games I've ran/played.