Kobold's ranged feint ability is neat, but it doesn't make it work for ranged attacks, so it doesn't actually help archers at all.
Edit: Also, Magical Trickster is aggravatingly hard to set up because Hide/Sneak and Make a Distraction, the easiest ways for an archer to set up sneak attack, don't work for spells.
It should probably be rated a but higher for Masterminds. A mastermind with a casting archetype has the easiest time setting up their own ranged spell sneak attack. Otherwise, though, party teamwork is important. There's no reason for the rogue to be the only one trying to set up flat-footed enemies in a halfway competent party.
Hide/Sneak and Make a Distraction, the easiest ways for an archer to set up sneak attack, don't work for spells.
Why not?
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I was just taking a look at your guide, which I do like (as I do all your guides), but....
Small item... for Eldritch Trickster, you identify how this racket varies from the standard rogue, among which you say:
"Gain access to a spellcasting dedication one level earlier"
This doesn't seem to accurately state the real benefit. Yes you do gain access 1 level early (hoo hum), BUT the more pertinent (and exciting) point is that you get a FREE Bonus Multiclass Dedication feat at 1st level for a spellcasting class.
I still don't particularly care for the racket, but getting a free multiclass dedication feat is A LOT better than getting access 1 level earlier.
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Found another little item:
Under the Gnome ancestry, the guide says:
Gnome Weapon Proficiency - (Ruffian/Scoundrel/Thief) - This feat doesn’t really help Scoundrels and Thieves as none of the gnome weapons are usable with Sneak Attack. You do become trained with the kukri (which can be used with Sneak Attack), but it doesn’t become a simple weapon, so you are stuck at Trained until 13th level. For a Ruffian, however, the gnome hooked hammer can be an outstanding weapon.
The last line of the feat says: "For the purpose of determining your proficiency, martial gnome weapons are simple weapons and advanced gnome weapons are martial weapons."
Kukri is a Martial Weapon, and pursuant to the feat is treated as a Simple Weapon for purposes of proficiency. As Rogue has proficiency in all Simple Weapons and since sneak attack can be used with the Kukri, a Rogue will have FULL use of the Kukri (Trained, Expert and Master). There is no need to take the 13th level feat to advance the Kukri for a Rogue.
BTW: I put together some very nice Gnome and Catfolk knife-fighter Rogue builds using Kukris via their ancestral weapon feats.
Don't know if I'm going to get through reading the entire guide tonight, but I like what I see so far.
Found another little item:
Under the Gnome ancestry, the guide says:
Gnome Weapon Proficiency - (Ruffian/Scoundrel/Thief) - This feat doesn’t really help Scoundrels and Thieves as none of the gnome weapons are usable with Sneak Attack. You do become trained with the kukri (which can be used with Sneak Attack), but it doesn’t become a simple weapon, so you are stuck at Trained until 13th level. For a Ruffian, however, the gnome hooked hammer can be an outstanding weapon.
The last line of the feat says: "For the purpose of determining your proficiency, martial gnome weapons are simple weapons and advanced gnome weapons are martial weapons."
Kukri is a Martial Weapon, and pursuant to the feat is treated as a Simple Weapon for purposes of proficiency. As Rogue has proficiency in all Simple Weapons and since sneak attack can be used with the Kukri, a Rogue will have FULL use of the Kukri (Trained, Expert and Master). There is no need to take the 13th level feat to advance the Kukri for a Rogue.
BTW: I put together some very nice Gnome and Catfolk knife-fighter Rogue builds using Kukris via their ancestral weapon feats.
Don't know if I'm going to get through reading the entire guide tonight, but I like what I see so far.
The ruffian can't sneak attack with the gnome hooked hammer either. They treat it as a simple weapon for proficiency. Not for sneak attack.
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The ruffian can't sneak attack with the gnome hooked hammer either. They treat it as a simple weapon for proficiency. Not for sneak attack.
Not sure what this has to do with my comments about the Kukri, but thanks for the heads up. You are correct about the Gnome Hooked Hammer not being eligible to use with Sneak Attack.
Overall though, really nice guide! 60 builds is bonkers and greatly appreciated!Please weigh in on whether you like the full build or would prefer just a list of important feats at each level.
I personally really like the full builds.
BUT the more pertinent (and exciting) point is that you get a FREE Bonus Multiclass Dedication feat at 1st level for a spellcasting class.
Yup. Changed.
Thanks!
I personally really like the full builds.
Good to know. Thanks!
Kukri is a Martial Weapon, and pursuant to the feat is treated as a Simple Weapon for purposes of proficiency. As Rogue has proficiency in all Simple Weapons and since sneak attack can be used with the Kukri, a Rogue will have FULL use of the Kukri (Trained, Expert and Master). There is no need to take the 13th level feat to advance the Kukri for a Rogue
Fixed.
The ruffian can't sneak attack with the gnome hooked hammer either. They treat it as a simple weapon for proficiency. Not for sneak attack.
Fixed that too.
If all you're interested in is the loot, then Mug isn't worth much to a PC, no.
But there are at least two times when it can be very valuable:
1) You're not a badass adventuring party but are in fact a solo rogue trying to make a living in the unforgiving city. Perhaps snatching a merchant's fat purse and beating feet before his bodyguard cuts you in half is a great idea.
2) Say you're facing a powerful opponent in combat and you notice he's got a sweet wand in a sheathe on his hip. Or a fine magical brooch that's been defeating your party mage's magic missiles. Now wouldn't this combat go better if you could snatch away that wand or that brooch?
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If all you're interested in is the loot, then Mug isn't worth much to a PC, no.
But there are at least two times when it can be very valuable:
1) You're not a badass adventuring party but are in fact a solo rogue trying to make a living in the unforgiving city. Perhaps snatching a merchant's fat purse and beating feet before his bodyguard cuts you in half is a great idea.
2) Say you're facing a powerful opponent in combat and you notice he's got a sweet wand in a sheathe on his hip. Or a fine magical brooch that's been defeating your party mage's magic missiles. Now wouldn't this combat go better if you could snatch away that wand or that brooch?
while there are occasions that you can use it, like snatching spell component pouch from a caster or a holy symbol from a cleric and etc, i'd definately say that it's much more circumstantial than a blue rating implies.
I think yellow rating for a circumstantial and/or "rp" (solo thief surviving through theaft) ability is more appropriate.
I did not notice that in my read through, but I agree.
I've downgraded "Mug", but still think it is better than an across-the-board Orange rating.
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Doesn't tumble behind mesh well with twin feint?
Tumble behind makes the opponent flat footed to your first melee attack after you tumble through. Twin feint makes the opponent flat footed to your second attack with the other weapon, but not your first one.
Combined, this seems like a move/attack/attack combo that makes the opponent flat footed to both attacks. This seems like a decent attack routine.
Particularly for a thief, since this seems like one of the few options for them to reliable get multiple flat footed early on.
First off, this is a very informative guide, and very clear and easy to navigate.
I did have one question. In the Mastermind racket, one of the sentences reads
It is tempting to take Intelligence as the Mastermind’s Key Ability and if you’re going to gain the Sorcerer (Arcane) or Wizard dedications, then it would be a good idea.
It seems like this is implying that there is a Sorcerer dedication that uses Intelligence as the casting stat. From what I've seen, Charisma is always the casting stat for Sorcerers, regardless of bloodline.
Basically, it seems like the Mastermind would be better for the Wizard dedication, and the Scoundrel would be better for the Sorcerer or Bard dedication.
Otherwise, the guide is top notch. Thank you!
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Found another little item:
Under the Gnome ancestry, the guide says:
Gnome Weapon Proficiency - (Ruffian/Scoundrel/Thief) - This feat doesn’t really help Scoundrels and Thieves as none of the gnome weapons are usable with Sneak Attack. You do become trained with the kukri (which can be used with Sneak Attack), but it doesn’t become a simple weapon, so you are stuck at Trained until 13th level. For a Ruffian, however, the gnome hooked hammer can be an outstanding weapon.
The last line of the feat says: "For the purpose of determining your proficiency, martial gnome weapons are simple weapons and advanced gnome weapons are martial weapons."
Kukri is a Martial Weapon, and pursuant to the feat is treated as a Simple Weapon for purposes of proficiency. As Rogue has proficiency in all Simple Weapons and since sneak attack can be used with the Kukri, a Rogue will have FULL use of the Kukri (Trained, Expert and Master). There is no need to take the 13th level feat to advance the Kukri for a Rogue.
BTW: I put together some very nice Gnome and Catfolk knife-fighter Rogue builds using Kukris via their ancestral weapon feats.
Don't know if I'm going to get through reading the entire guide tonight, but I like what I see so far.
RAW, Kukri's do not have the Gnome trait so the last part of the Gnome Weapon Familiarity feat's text doesn't actually apply to them. The fact that access is specifically granted to 'kukris and all uncommon gnome weapons' reinforces the fact that Kukris are not Gnome weapons.
Gnome
You favor unusual weapons tied to your people, such as blades with curved and peculiar shapes. You are trained with the glaive and kukri.
In addition, you gain access to kukris and all uncommon gnome weapons. For the purpose of determining your proficiency, martial gnome weapons are simple weapons and advanced gnome weapons are martial weapons. Specifically, this feat gives you the following:
- You are trained with the Kukri and Glaive.
- You gain access to 'kukris and all uncommon gnome weapons' (Gnome Hooked Hammer and Gnome Flickmace).
- You treat Gnome Martial Weapons as Simple Weapons for proficiency purposes (This only applies to the Gnome Hooked Hammer at this point).
- You treat Gnome Advanced Weapons as Martial Weapons for proficency purposes (This only applies to the Gnome Flickmace at this point).
Rogues using Kukris are generally stuck at the 'trained' proficiency level.
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A few (or more) items I noticed in the guide (and yes, I'm playing a Halfling Thief in AoA):
Thief racket - Shortswords are far better than Rapiers for Thieves, as they offer the option to do slashing damage rather than a little extra damage when you crit. Most importantly, they aren't nearly as bulky, so carrying a cold iron weapon and a silver weapon is much easier for a character whose strength score is probably fairly low.
Halfling Weapon Familiarity - Filcher's forks are just worse than Shortswords in every way (unless you plan to throw them, at which point you should be looking at Javelins anyway).
Unfettered Halfling - This feat isn't quite as good as it seems, as most opponents with Grab also have a really good athletics skill. You might get lucky, but I think the only time this actually worked for my halfling rogue was when the creature grabbing me didn't actually have Athletics: Every other time, the relevant athletics check was really just a formality.
Cultural Adaptability - You are limited to Common ancestries, so Leshy is not an option.
Halfling Ingenuity - Given how many skills you can get trained in as a rogue, this feat is kinda weak (though the +4 bonus is nice).
Step Lively - It has to be a 'A Large or larger enemy' to trigger this ability and you still only get to take a 5' step, which often won't actually get you into a flanking position (though it might get you closer).
Cunning Climber - There isn't actually a 'Legendary Climber' feat in anything published so far (at least, not on AoN).
Dance Underfoot - This is an odd one, but note that you can 'flank' from inside your foe's square if you have the Gang Up rogue feat (which just requires your foe to be within your weapon reach, though you can't grant 'flanking' to an ally), so this could help a melee-heavy party in confined spaces.
Ceaseless Shadows - The problem with this feat (and the Goblin Sneaky feat line) is it becomes available just two levels away from Legendary Sneak, which is just better because it allows a second exploration activity. I'd probably rank it lower unless you have another priority for your skill upgrades and feats.
Shadow Self - One of the better Ancestry 17 feats (most of them are either weak or oddly specialized) but by the time you hit 17, you probably already have multiple invisibility options (not to mention the Legendary Stealth requirement means you should have Legendary Sneak by this point). Considering that Hidden Paragon (Rogue 20) is just around the corner for you, this feat seems a little underwhelming and/or redundant.
On a side note, since sneak/hide checks are supposed to be secret, how are you supposed to know you can actually use this ability???
Celestial Word - Note that this ability might damage any allies / innocent bystanders who aren't 'good' (including yourself): At least their saves are upgraded one step.
Nimble Dodge - It's true you will use this every fight (at least, until you get another reaction option), but it won't actually help you 80%-90% of the times you use it. I understand a lot of players seem to like this feat, but I find it far too random...
Trap Finder - I'm of mixed opinions on this feat, but allowing you to check for traps regardless of activity lets you use the Avoid Notice activity and get your 'Surprise Attack' class feature while still helping the party as a whole.
Personally, I think this feat should give you an extra check, so you get one check if you are not using the Search activity and two if you are.
Quick Draw - The other use for this feat is to take advantage of a weakness like switching to a bludgeoning weapon when surprised by skeletons or a silver weapon when you realize your foe is a devil rather than a demon. On the other hand, remember that Quick Draw will provoke Opportunity Attacks if your foe has one available.
Underhanded Assault - Note the penalty to your Sneak check, the fact that it uses two of your actions, and you only get to make a strike at all if you succeed on the Sneak check: If you fail that check, you've lost two of your actions for nothing. Honestly, Twin Feint (which I am not a big fan of) is probably a better option for reliably getting at least one sneak attack opportunity each round (though at a MAP). Of course, Underhanded Assault is much better if you need to move a short distance to your foe anyway...
Magical Trickster - It should be noted how few spells this ability actually works with (it has to be a spell with an attack roll). I believe they are all listed in this post: https://paizo.com/threads/rzs434bw?Help-for-an-Eldritch-Trickster-Rogue-Bui ld#20
Watch Your Back - Once battle has started, stealth isn't particularly useful most of the time so the trade-off in this feat is not horrible. Not a particularly great feat in my opinion, but decent if you also have Dread Striker and you know an ally will be using a fear effect shortly.
Inspired Stratagem - Remember this uses your reaction and has to be used BEFORE your ally actually rolls, which greatly limits its utility.
Opportune Backstab - You really can't overstate the potential power of this feat for a melee rogue in a party with a couple more melee attackers: Getting an additional attack (or two with Preparation) each round at no MAP without relying on your opponent to provoke an Opportunity Attack is a significant increase to the damage you do. It might deserve a color of its own (perhaps Purple). The only 'downside' is you can't use it to apply debilitations (since you can't generally use free actions outside of your turn).
Deadly Poison Weapon - Just wanted to note we just got access to this feat (via the module that introduced it) at level 17, which seems way to late for any sort of poison build.
Preparation - I believe this came up earlier in this thread, but this feat seems HUGE in conjunction with the Gang Up and Opportune Backstab feats, since you are likely trading an attack at -8 for an Opportune Backstab at -0. It's only downsides are the fairly stiff competition from other class feats at this level and its Flourish trait.
Personally, I ended up skipping this feat, but from a pure damage perspective, I really shouldn't have (My party has a Dragon Barbarian and a Reach Fighter, so two opportune backstab opportunities per round is not unusual).
Defensive Roll - Considering you only have 4 class feats left at the point where this feat becomes an option, it really falls into the 'would be nice to have, but really tough to actually fit it into a build without sacrificing more useful abilities' bucket: It's no where near as bad as in previous editions (where being left at low HP was very likely to get you outright killed by the next attack instead of knocked unconscious by this one), but it still only helps if half damage doesn't knock you out anyway and your opponent doesn't hit you with an attack right afterwards. I guess it works okay if you are trying to run away while you still have enough HP that only taking half damage from an opportunity attack will keep you up and you aren't planning on taking any more hits...
Instant Opening - The problem with this feat is you should already have one (or more) ways of making your foe flat-footed by level 14, so how often are you actually going to use this? I can see the utility for ranged characters, but for everyone one else, high level class feats are a fairly scarce resource to spend on something you can probably already do.
Hidden Paragon - Note that this ability is usable once per hour and "Not even glitterdust, see invisibility, or similar effects can reveal you" so it is really reliable at a level when countermeasures should really be expected.
Taja, you can use a Free Action outside your turn if its trigger occurs outside your turn. So Debilitations work fine for a Rogue who's attacking a flat-footed opponent w/ a Reaction.
I think the drawback to Opportune Backstab (an optimal Reaction) is it requires you to stay in melee range of one's enemy. If you're already doing that, go for it, but since Rogues are squishy, it's a gamble.
I waver between "must have" and "I'll wait to see how viable it is to stand rather than skirmish".
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Okay, a few (or more) more items (yes, this is a lot of items, but it was also a very long guide)
Adopted Ancestry - It's important to remember this feat is limited to Common ancestries only.
Armor Proficiency - Like the weapon proficiency feat, this armor proficiency does not improve past trained, which really limits it's appeal.
Incredible Initiative - As a rogue, going first can easily get you killed if you end up all alone next to your foes when their first turn comes, so a little discretion is advised. Still, since you can easily delay, having the option to go a little earlier isn't a bad thing.
Weapon Proficiency - As you note, the non-scaling proficiency really makes this a non-option unless you are taking an archetype that increases your proficiency: Otherwise, the loss of the static damage bonus from 'Weapon Specialization' will quickly outweigh anything you get.
Thorough Search - Note that Halflings already get a +2 circumstance bonus to some Seek checks through their 'Keen Eyes' feature.
Untrained Improvisation - Again, you should already be trained in nearly all the standard skills, so this feat really only helps with Lores.
Expeditious Search - This feat sounds really good, but you better check with your GM before taking it: RAW, it still limits you to half speed while searching (which I assume is an error or bad phrasing)
Trick Magic Item - Great feat, but it is important to realize it is effectively limited to 1 or 2 action spells: Actually using the feat takes an action and only lasts until the end of your current turn, so you only have two actions remaining to use the item.
Acrobatic Performer - Personally, I found this feat essential when our party ran into an area where our lack of social / knowledge skills was crippling us (to be fair, our sorcerer's player had to drop out of the group about halfway through the campaign, so it's not like we intended to neglect these skills)
Quick Climber - If you are planning on getting legendary athletics, this is a pretty strong feat considering you are likely going to run short on investment slots at high level. The major thing I like about this feat is that its legendary bonus is nice but you can take it much earlier, so it isn't competing with actual legendary feats.
Quick Swim - As per Quick Climber, but more situational: You typically won't need to swim as much, but when you do need to, you typically really, really, really need to do it well...
Quick Repair - Very useful when you Critically Fail an attempt to pick open a lock and break your tools (which is why I took it after a depressing run of bad luck on these checks).
Wary Disarmament - Note that this feat does not stack with the 'Trap Finder' Rouge 01 feat, which also applies to traps you aren't actively trying to disarm: You definitely don't want both of these feats.
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Taja, you can use a Free Action outside your turn if its trigger occurs outside your turn. So Debilitations work fine for a Rogue who's attacking a flat-footed opponent w/ a Reaction.
Oh, good catch: I've been playing that wrong.
I think the drawback to Opportune Backstab (an optimal Reaction) is it requires you to stay in melee range of one's enemy. If you're already doing that, go for it, but since Rogues are squishy, it's a gamble.
I waver between "must have" and "I'll wait to see how viable it is to stand rather than skirmish".
Not really a fan of 'hit and fade' builds personally: The loss of damage plus the risks of provoking opportunity attacks just seems like a bad deal for a rogue without routine access to invisibility and/or high-level feats (Spring from the Shadows + Dust of Disappearance worked well for me in one battle, though I ended up keeping in melee reach to provide a flanking bonus to allies and use Opportune Backstab). It seems like it works better with classes that get a 'flurry' attack so they can use their first action to move in, their last action to move out, and still get two attacks off.
Nimble Dodge - It's true you will use this every fight (at least, until you get another reaction option), but it won't actually help you 80%-90% of the times you use it. I understand a lot of players seem to like this feat, but I find it far too random..
While nimble dodge doesn't cover all attacks, it can often cover the important attack. The most likely time you are going to use it is when you are facing the first, 0 MAP attack from an opponent, since you want to minimize the chance of a crit. This helps the rogue in its ability to go toe to toe with a target.
Obviously, opportune backstab is preferred when possible, since killing an opponent usually reduces its damage output to 0. Still, the rogue's feats are often focused on the situations where you cannot rely on having a flank buddy with you.
Of course, it doesn't help much if you are facing two opponents. But you have other abilities to help with that (deny advantage helps to reduce the risks of getting flanked or flat footed, which is a similar 2 AC advantage)
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Nimble Dodge - It's true you will use this every fight (at least, until you get another reaction option), but it won't actually help you 80%-90% of the times you use it. I understand a lot of players seem to like this feat, but I find it far too random..While nimble dodge doesn't cover all attacks, it can often cover the important attack. The most likely time you are going to use it is when you are facing the first, 0 MAP attack from an opponent, since you want to minimize the chance of a crit. This helps the rogue in its ability to go toe to toe with a target.
Obviously, opportune backstab is preferred when possible, since killing an opponent usually reduces its damage output to 0. Still, the rogue's feats are often focused on the situations where you cannot rely on having a flank buddy with you.
Of course, it doesn't help much if you are facing two opponents. But you have other abilities to help with that (deny advantage helps to reduce the risks of getting flanked or flat footed, which is a similar 2 AC advantage)
The major issue I have with it is every time you declare your reaction and the GM rolls that die, there are at best 4 numbers on that d20 where your reaction will actually help you, and at least 16 where it won't: At least with a shield or deny advantage, you get this against every incoming attack instead of just one.
Honestly, this particular topic has already been beaten to death in other threads and it really just comes down to personal tastes.
Taja, you can use a Free Action outside your turn if its trigger occurs outside your turn. So Debilitations work fine for a Rogue who's attacking a flat-footed opponent w/ a Reaction.Oh, good catch: I've been playing that wrong.
Not really a fan of 'hit and fade' builds personally: The loss of damage plus the risks of provoking opportunity attacks just seems like a bad deal for a rogue without routine access to invisibility and/or high-level feats (Spring from the Shadows + Dust of Disappearance worked well for me in one battle, though I ended up keeping in melee reach to provide a flanking bonus to allies and use Opportune Backstab). It seems like it works better with classes that get a 'flurry' attack so they can use their first action to move in, their last action to move out, and still get two attacks off.I think the drawback to Opportune Backstab (an optimal Reaction) is it requires you to stay in melee range of one's enemy. If you're already doing that, go for it, but since Rogues are squishy, it's a gamble.
I waver between "must have" and "I'll wait to see how viable it is to stand rather than skirmish".
A skirmish build would have (I'd think) Mobility to avoid AoOs and perhaps Skirmish Strike too. That said, I'd prefer to stand my ground (and definitely would if there were a Champion nearby or Cleric focused on healing). It's just after watching better armored, higher h.p. martials being taken out rather rapidly, one gets wary (not that I'm playing a Rogue yet).
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My Rogue (Thief) has proven to be pretty durable. It's not the build you would typically think of, but I regularly stand in combat and attack 3 times (with a decent 25-30% chance of landing the third attack) without significant issues. My Champion gets dropped more often than my Rogue, though a lot of that is down to luck.
The basic build is:
Starting stats: 10 18 16 12 14 8
I took Toughness at 7th level, so it doesn't factor in until very late in the play experience (just hit 8th level in PFS).
Wear leather armor and a buckler for when I am not TWFing.
So started with 18 AC and 21 HPs (same as my Champion, but without shield block).
As he leveled, I took Battle Medicine and Godless Healing, so he's got a better 1/hour self healing than a Champion's Lay on Hands. Assurance and 6th level meant an auto succeed at the DC20 roll. Medic Dedication means another +5 HPs. At 7th level, Master in Medicine, he could battle medicine himself with an auto success for 2d8+20 twice a combat. Plus healing gloves. At 7th, he had 101 HPs. He's at 114 at 8th, and at 9th I'll take Mountain Stoutness and be pretty close to where my Champion will be at the same level.
So all of that is to say that it's possible to build a durable Rogue.
On the damage side, Twin Feint helped significantly at low levels. At 6th, Gang Up means (almost) always getting a flank if you're attacking the same enemy an ally is, and not needing two weapons out to do it. With a shortsword attack, he's usually doing 2d6+6+2d6 precision, which adds a d6 of some element now that he's 8th. With the agile weapon, his third attack is generally effectively -6 assuming flat-footed. At a +16, that's a +10 against an AC between 25 and 27 or so for an at level enemy, or about a 15%-25% chance to hit. Better against below level minions. A little worse against a high-AC boss.
Wow. This place has been busy. I've not checked back for a few weeks while I worked on updating my Wizard and Fighter guides. But thank you for all the insights. I'll be working through them soon.
I think you may have undervalued the preparation feat.
If you have opportune backstab and you're sure your opponent will be attacked at least twice by allies (and you can guarantee this with a companion), you can trade a second attack for an extra reaction attack at your full bonus.
Basically if your already locked in combat and flaking with your buddy, you can get three attacks in one round with no MAP and all are sneak attacks.
Thanks for pointing this out. I agree that its' better than I initially rated it.
Why doesn't Enthralling Allure have the same rating as Supernatural Charm, given that it has the same effect?
I must have missed that Enthralling Allure is an innate spell.
Doesn't tumble behind mesh well with twin feint?
Tumble behind makes the opponent flat footed to your first melee attack after you tumble through. Twin feint makes the opponent flat footed to your second attack with the other weapon, but not your first one.
Combined, this seems like a move/attack/attack combo that makes the opponent flat footed to both attacks. This seems like a decent attack routine.
Particularly for a thief, since this seems like one of the few options for them to reliable get multiple flat footed early on.
Yes, it does. Did I not convey that?
I gave Tumble Behind a Green rating for Scoundrels and Thieves for that reason. I think that the other three rackets are probably less likely to want to use this tactic or have room for this feat.
From what I've seen, Charisma is always the casting stat for Sorcerers, regardless of bloodline.
Oh, wow. You're right. I thoroughly misunderstood that. Thanks.
Taja, thank you very much for all your insight and opinion. Very helpful.
Thief racket - Shortswords are far better than Rapiers for Thieves, as they offer the option to do slashing damage rather than a little extra damage when you crit. Most importantly, they aren't nearly as bulky, so carrying a cold iron weapon and a silver weapon is much easier for a character whose strength score is probably fairly low.
I think the traits are a trade-off, but I hadn’t considered Bulk. Thanks!
Halfling Weapon Familiarity - Filcher's forks are just worse than Shortswords in every way (unless you plan to throw them, at which point you should be looking at Javelins anyway).
I don’t disagree with you.
Unfettered Halfling - This feat isn't quite as good as it seems, as most opponents with Grab also have a really good athletics skill. You might get lucky, but I think the only time this actually worked for my halfling rogue was when the creature grabbing me didn't actually have Athletics: Every other time, the relevant athletics check was really just a formality.
You’re playing a Thief. For a stronger character I’m thinking it will be a better option.
Unfettered Cultural Adaptability - You are limited to Common ancestries, so Leshy is not an option.
Right you are.
Halfling Ingenuity - Given how many skills you can get trained in as a rogue, this feat is kinda weak (though the +4 bonus is nice).
I’m going to stick with my recommendation. I think it’s pretty alright.
Step Lively - It has to be a 'A Large or larger enemy' to trigger this ability and you still only get to take a 5' step, which often won't actually get you into a flanking position (though it might get you closer).
Yep. And you might be 5' from flanking from the start.
Cunning Climber - There isn't actually a 'Legendary Climber' feat in anything published so far (at least, not on AoN).
Huh. That is both true and interesting. Just something they left in the Character Guide when they took out the feat, I guess.
Ceaseless Shadows - The problem with this feat (and the Goblin Sneaky feat line) is it becomes available just two levels away from Legendary Sneak, which is just better because it allows a second exploration activity. I'd probably rank it lower unless you have another priority for your skill upgrades and feats.
I’ll point this out, but keep the rating. Also, not every rogue is going to take Legendary in Stealth at 15th level (many, but not all).
Celestial Word - Note that this ability might damage any allies / innocent bystanders who aren't 'good' (including yourself): At least their saves are upgraded one step.
Another reason to take Eternal Wings.
Nimble Dodge - It's true you will use this every fight (at least, until you get another reaction option), but it won't actually help you 80%-90% of the times you use it. I understand a lot of players seem to like this feat, but I find it far too random...
Hard disagree. A +2 AC in PF2e is huge.
Quick Draw - The other use for this feat is to take advantage of a weakness like switching to a bludgeoning weapon when surprised by skeletons or a silver weapon when you realize your foe is a devil rather than a demon. On the other hand, remember that Quick Draw will provoke Opportunity Attacks if your foe has one available.
And is not losing an action every once in awhile worth spending a precious class feat? I don’t think so.
Magical Trickster - It should be noted how few spells this ability actually works with (it has to be a spell with an attack roll). I believe they are all listed in this post: https://paizo.com/threads/rzs434bw?Help-for-an-Eldritch-Trickster-Rogue-Bui ld#20
I listed them at 4.1.1.
Watch Your Back - Once battle has started, stealth isn't particularly useful most of the time so the trade-off in this feat is not horrible. Not a particularly great feat in my opinion, but decent if you also have Dread Striker and you know an ally will be using a fear effect shortly.
Noted.
Inspired Stratagem - Remember this uses your reaction and has to be used BEFORE your ally actually rolls, which greatly limits its utility.
I really don’t think it does limit it much. If you build around this feat you can gain a lot of utility.
Opportune Backstab - You really can't overstate the potential power of this feat for a melee rogue in a party with a couple more melee attackers: Getting an additional attack (or two with Preparation) each round at no MAP without relying on your opponent to provoke an Opportunity Attack is a significant increase to the damage you do.
Agreed.
Preparation - I believe this came up earlier in this thread, but this feat seems HUGE in conjunction with the Gang Up and Opportune Backstab feats, since you are likely trading an attack at -8 for an Opportune Backstab at -0. It's only downsides are the fairly stiff competition from other class feats at this level and its Flourish trait.
Personally, I ended up skipping this feat, but from a pure damage perspective, I really shouldn't have (My party has a Dragon Barbarian and a Reach Fighter, so two opportune backstab opportunities per round is not unusual).
I agree.
Defensive Roll - Considering you only have 4 class feats left at the point where this feat becomes an option, it really falls into the 'would be nice to have, but really tough to actually fit it into a build without sacrificing more useful abilities' bucket: It's no where near as bad as in previous editions (where being left at low HP was very likely to get you outright killed by the next attack instead of knocked unconscious by this one), but it still only helps if half damage doesn't knock you out anyway and your opponent doesn't hit you with an attack right afterwards. I guess it works okay if you are trying to run away while you still have enough HP that only taking half damage from an opportunity attack will keep you up and you aren't planning on taking any more hits...
I think its an awesome feat, but I’ll rarely take it because as you note, there are better feats (even though I’ve listed it as Blue. In particular, nearly every build should consider taking Instant Opening at 14th level.
Instant Opening - The problem with this feat is you should already have one (or more) ways of making your foe flat-footed by level 14, so how often are you actually going to use this? I can see the utility for ranged characters, but for everyone one else, high level class feats are a fairly scarce resource to spend on something you can probably already do.
I’d use it all the time. The difference is that Instant Opening can’t fail and other methods can or can be situational. I honestly think it is the single indispensable Rogue feat.
Hidden Paragon - Note that this ability is usable once per hour and "Not even glitterdust, see invisibility, or similar effects can reveal you" so it is really reliable at a level when countermeasures should really be expected.
I agree. It’s very good. That’s why I rated it Green.
Untrained Improvisation - Again, you should already be trained in nearly all the standard skills, so this feat really only helps with Lores.
Agreed.
Quick Repair - Very useful when you Critically Fail an attempt to pick open a lock and break your tools (which is why I took it after a depressing run of bad luck on these checks).
Good point. I hadn’t thought about that.
Wary Disarmament - Note that this feat does not stack with the 'Trap Finder' Rouge 01 feat, which also applies to traps you aren't actively trying to disarm: You definitely don't want both of these feats.
I hadn’t thought about that, either. Thanks.
One thing that might be useful to add to this guide is to list the Rogue feats with skill prerequisites in the Skills section
For example, listing the following under Deception:
Trained:Legendary:
- (01) Overextending Feint
- (16) Blank Slate
- (16) Perfect Distraction
- (20) Reactive Distraction
Interesting idea. I'll consider it.
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Regarding the Unfettered Halfling feat, Strength doesn't really enter into the equation:
- The DC to grab you is your Fortitude DC (which, granted, is a bit of a weak spot for rogues)
- Escape uses your Unarmed Strike as its default roll, which has the finesse trait and therefore can use Dexterity.
- Alternately, you can use Acrobatics to Escape (or Athletics if you prefer). Given rogue unarmed proficiency doesn't increase particularly quickly, one of these skills is very likely to be better for you.
Regarding Quick Draw, Rogue class feats really start getting 'precious' for me at level 6 and up: The level 1, 2, and 4 feats are kinda 'meh'. Of course, this is just a personal opinion and your mileage may vary...
Regarding Hidden Paragon, I misread your entry a bit (or at least got the wrong impression somehow): Your ranking seems about right.
Arcus and Taja - I want to thank you for cluing me in to the Preparation feat. It is -way- better than I gave it credit for. In fact, I'm now calling Gang Up/Opportune Backstab/Preparation the "Indispensable Combination."
Regarding Quick Draw, Rogue class feats really start getting 'precious' for me at level 6 and up: The level 1, 2, and 4 feats are kinda 'meh'. Of course, this is just a personal opinion and your mileage may vary...
No, you're totally right. At mid levels and above, rogues have awesome feats and you are often forced not to take some of the best because even better ones demand your attention. An embarrassment of riches.
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I've uploaded Version 1.2 to the SAME URL. It incorporates many of the suggestions I've received here. Thank you for your assistance!
Doesn't tumble behind mesh well with twin feint?
Tumble behind makes the opponent flat footed to your first melee attack after you tumble through. Twin feint makes the opponent flat footed to your second attack with the other weapon, but not your first one.
Combined, this seems like a move/attack/attack combo that makes the opponent flat footed to both attacks. This seems like a decent attack routine.
Particularly for a thief, since this seems like one of the few options for them to reliable get multiple flat footed early on.
Yes, it does. Did I not convey that?
I gave Tumble Behind a Green rating for Scoundrels and Thieves for that reason. I think that the other three rackets are probably less likely to want to use this tactic or have room for this feat.
No, there is not much mention of how the two feats interplay. The review mostly seems to talk about each one in a vacuum, although they are placed relatively close together, which could help one consider their implications.
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Regarding the Unfettered Halfling feat, Strength doesn't really enter into the equation:Overall, this feat hasn't come into play much for me, and probably only helped me once: If it didn't fit the Emancipated campaign background so well, I probably would have retrained out of it by now.
- The DC to grab you is your Fortitude DC (which, granted, is a bit of a weak spot for rogues)
- Escape uses your Unarmed Strike as its default roll, which has the finesse trait and therefore can use Dexterity.
- Alternately, you can use Acrobatics to Escape (or Athletics if you prefer). Given rogue unarmed proficiency doesn't increase particularly quickly, one of these skills is very likely to be better for you.
Regarding Quick Draw, Rogue class feats really start getting 'precious' for me at level 6 and up: The level 1, 2, and 4 feats are kinda 'meh'. Of course, this is just a personal opinion and your mileage may vary...
Regarding Hidden Paragon, I misread your entry a bit (or at least got the wrong impression somehow): Your ranking seems about right.
UPDATE -
Well, being an Unfettered Halfling saved my thief a lot of pain last night since Mariliths don't actually have Athletics: Assuming she had Athletics in the 'low to mid 30s' range like she probably should (Strength is her best stat), she wouldn't have needed much to hit my 39 Fortitude DC.Not certain how to feel about a feat that saves me a fair amount of damage due to an apparent editing technicality/oversight...
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even if an enemy has athletics, going from 100% to get grabbed to something like 50%-70% (depending on level of opponent) is still great.
As is the free "step" every time you escape from a grapple. (every succesful escape =crit success)
For a level 1 feat i find it amazing personally.
Eh, over 17 levels I've seen maybe 6 grab attempts on my thief: Two were avoided because the grabber didn't actually have athletics, and I don't think I even tried to escape the other four as it was easier to just kill the grabber.
I guess your mileage may vary, but at best it is highly situational...