Just a word of warning, there are a lot of creatures which a TWF arcane trickster has trouble hitting, even with greater invisibility up. They have poor BAB, TWF penalties and probably no time to cast more buff spells.Yup, agreed.
At level 8 a Rogue-1/Wizard-3/AT-4 has +3BAB. Let's say you have 14 DEX. You go Greater Invisibility then cast Scorching Ray on someone. Chances are you're targeting AC:10, and you still have a 20% chance to miss.
If you're focussing on TWF you're probably gonna have mor DEX, but you take that -2 to hit and you won't be targeting touch AC. Against any targets that matter you're gonna have a hard time hitting.
if you are doing this build you should have a DEX much higher than 14, by 8th level, I would look at DEX being 18 or higher (without magic). Base 14, +2 for RACE, +2 from level. you're losing out on high level magic spells due to multiclassing, so a high INT isn't necessary, the only other stat that really matters is CON, and a high AC somewhat makes up for that.
I've never had much problem with a DEX based TWF hitting.
My current group does a lot of chatting on Discord and it has been pointed out to me that a spellcasting dip is probably a bad idea since save DCs would be too low for what spells I can use and so on.
I have been told about a rogue talent called The Whole Time that lets a rogue use wands and such items without needing UMD for Vanish, Invisibility, and Greater Invisibility. And with fighter levels, I'll have enough free feats to take the Extra Rogue Talent feat to grab the talent if I use my two regular talents for other things.
Also, I'd like to point out in the BAB math example used above, you forgot that Two-Weapon Fighting requires 15 Dex, not 14.
Sorry in case I wasn't clear that was more a Wizard dipping Rogue for some sneak attack (and going Arcane Trickster to keep sneak and spells). It was probably a bad example =P If you were going for more of a Rogue with spells you'd probably have ~22 DEX by level 8.
The point was that there is a fairly major weakness with the build - accuracy. Since this is already a weakness for TWF builds you really need to focus on this aspect.
Since you're a wizard with a 1-level dip in Rogue you should have a bunch of spells to help with this, but then you have to prioritise your actions. If you want Greater Invisibility and Haste you've then spent 2 rounds buffing before getting any use out of your TWF feats.
Just something to think about.
(Something probably irrelevant since Heather's looking at Rogue/Fighter, but oh well.)
The idea with a spellcasting dip is that you don't use spells with saves. There's a lot of useful utility spells at 1st level and a few useful buffs, and the occasional useful class power like a very short range teleport.
By the time you're likely to have a free feat spending it on skill focus (UMD) is probably a better bargain as far as wand use goes. That talent does have the cute 'who, me?' thing going for it of course.
My current group does a lot of chatting on Discord and it has been pointed out to me that a spellcasting dip is probably a bad idea since save DCs would be too low for what spells I can use and so on.
I have been told about a rogue talent called The Whole Time that lets a rogue use wands and such items without needing UMD for Vanish, Invisibility, and Greater Invisibility. And with fighter levels, I'll have enough free feats to take the Extra Rogue Talent feat to grab the talent if I use my two regular talents for other things.
Also, I'd like to point out in the BAB math example used above, you forgot that Two-Weapon Fighting requires 15 Dex, not 14.
If this is what you want, can I suggest the Stygian slayer, which gets the ability to use items for certain spells without UMD and gets some interesting abilities that for stealth and infiltration.
And slayer is generally a better chassis than rogue due to higher BAB, even if it does have less sneak attack.
I was just told about a feat called Quick Dirty Trick. It lets me sacrifice my first attack for the Dirty Trick combat maneuver. By the time I qualify for the feat, I'd get an iterative attack, so I'd still have 2 attacks after using it. The only downside is that it takes Combat Expertise and Improved Dirty Trick to get it.
I am considering Slayer, but for after the rogue levels. Slayers don't get auto-dex to damage the way unchained rogue does. It's between slayer for the sneak attack and talents, and fighter for the feats.
I was just told about a feat called Quick Dirty Trick. It lets me sacrifice my first attack for the Dirty Trick combat maneuver. By the time I qualify for the feat, I'd get an iterative attack, so I'd still have 2 attacks after using it. The only downside is that it takes Combat Expertise and Improved Dirty Trick to get it.
You can take DIRTY FIGHTING in place of Combat Expertise. You still have to spend a feat but at least it's a good one.
Yeah, that's a better choice in feat.
I am considering Slayer, but for after the rogue levels. Slayers don't get auto-dex to damage the way unchained rogue does.
You don't seem to grasp what makes Slayer good. It's true that Slayer doesn't get dex-to-damage, but it doesn't need it. Slayer can go strength based TWF, as they can ignore the dex prereqs of the feats selected via the Ranger Combat Style slayer talent (and can get Two-Weapon Rend earlier than others, too).
I am considering Slayer, but for after the rogue levels. Slayers don't get auto-dex to damage the way unchained rogue does.You don't seem to grasp what makes Slayer good. It's true that Slayer doesn't get dex-to-damage, but it doesn't need it. Slayer can go strength based TWF, as they can ignore the dex prereqs of the feats selected via the Ranger Combat Style slayer talent (and can get Two-Weapon Rend earlier than others, too).
Honestly ranger combat style is obnoxiously good, they get shield mastery like five levels early too if you sword and board.
Combat Expertise is underrated. A lot of the time, you really do need the extra AC. When I play a character with Combat Expertise, I end up using it a lot.
+8 BAB: CE = -3/+3, FD = -4/+3. CE is the equivalent of Weapon Focus, butonly works while fighting defensively.
+12 BAB: CE = -4/+4, FD = -4/+3. CE is now the equivalent of Dodge, but only works while Fighting defensively.
I know you can stack the bonuses together (so at +8 BAB you can use CE + FD for -7/+6) for those rounds where you really don't want to be hit, but you're tanking your to-hit so much you might as well just go Full Defence and get nearly the same benefit.
There are times when it could be useful, and there are builds that make great use of it, but I think most characters will get more out of Dirty Fighting than Combat Expertise.
There are times when it could be useful, and there are builds that make great use of it, but I think most characters will get more out of Dirty Fighting than Combat Expertise.
Well, there is one use for almost every melee combatant: When you are restricted to a standard action attack, it's often a good deal to sacrifice only a bit of DPR via Combat Expertise and fighting defensively but to get the same AC boost as if you had done a full-attack with these penalties.
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Well, there is one use for almost every melee combatant: When you are restricted to a standard action attack, it's often a good deal to sacrifice only a bit of DPR via Combat Expertise and fighting defensively but to get the same AC boost as if you had done a full-attack with these penalties.
Right but you can do that without Combat Expertise by just fighting defensively. Unless you're stacking Combat Expertise with Fighting Defensively the bonuses aren't different enough to be relevant (ie. not different enough to be worth a feat).
If you are stacking them and you can still hit reliably then you've been focusing too on much offence and there are more efficient ways to increase your AC. I guess I can see it with a Barbarian/Bloodrager (classes that sacrifice defence for offence naturally), but given that TWF builds already have accuracy problems and don't traditionally have the defensive problems of a Barbarian it seems like Dirty Fighting would generally be a better choice.
I still think the ac boost of combat expertise makes way more sense tacked onto dodge, and that combat expertise should be the feat that pulls AoO's from all combat maneuvers.
No 3pp stuff. I build more characters than I can play, so I like to keep them 3pp free. That way when I do bring a character into a campaign, I only have to do minor adjustments to match any house rules.
Yes, going Str based might mean less work with the Ranger Combat Feats, but that also means I can't take any TWF feats if it's not one of those bonus feats. Because I wouldn't qualify for them. Going Dex based means I can take them at any time I'd get a feat anyway. So there's more freedom in when I can take them.
Although, if I want to use Dirty Tricks fairly reliably, I'd need the Agile Maneuvers feat. So I can get Dex to CMB rather than Str.
No 3pp stuff. I build more characters than I can play, so I like to keep them 3pp free. That way when I do bring a character into a campaign, I only have to do minor adjustments to match any house rules.
Yes, going Str based might mean less work with the Ranger Combat Feats, but that also means I can't take any TWF feats if it's not one of those bonus feats. Because I wouldn't qualify for them. Going Dex based means I can take them at any time I'd get a feat anyway. So there's more freedom in when I can take them.
Although, if I want to use Dirty Tricks fairly reliably, I'd need the Agile Maneuvers feat. So I can get Dex to CMB rather than Str.
Ranger combat style lets you ignore prereqs
At 2nd level, a ranger must select one of two combat styles to pursue: archery or two-weapon combat. The ranger's expertise manifests in the form of bonus feats at 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level. He can choose feats from his selected combat style, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites.
Ranger combat style lets you ignore prereqs
At 2nd level, a ranger must select one of two combat styles to pursue: archery or two-weapon combat. The ranger's expertise manifests in the form of bonus feats at 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level. He can choose feats from his selected combat style, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites.
I think she means she won't be able to use her regular feats to pick up other TWF related feats because she won't have the required DEX.
Yes.
Which in particular, the two weapon fighting style covers the entire core of TWF.
TWF
Double slice
ITWF
TW rend
Yeah I honestly don't see it as a huge problem, but I remember a thread earlier this year comparing the TWO WEAPON FIGHTING RANGER FEATS to the WEAPON AND SHIELD RANGER FEATS. You couldn't get everything (within PFS levels at least) without going DEX-based.
I'm sure there are things you could do going DEX-based that would be cool, but I don't think you need it. Whatever floats your boat I guess.
Further to Ryan's point - there's lots more TWF feats but they generally aren't very good. Being unable to get Two-Weapon Feint costs you nothing as a ranger.
Further to Ryan's point - there's lots more TWF feats but they generally aren't very good. Being unable to get Two-Weapon Feint costs you nothing as a ranger.
Thats kind of where i was going, like yes they exist but two weapon defense is directly inferior to dodge with a higher dex requirement.
Yes, going Str based might mean less work with the Ranger Combat Feats, but that also means I can't take any TWF feats if it's not one of those bonus feats.
Which feat are you actually talking about? Is there actually a specific feat you want?
The normal progression would be to take TWF at 2nd level, Improved TWF at 6th, sand Two-Weapon Rend at 10th. So which TWF feats with dex prereqs are not included?
Double Slice is crap, the damage increasy is laughable. The same goes for Greater TWF. Two-Weapon Defense is inferior to Dodge, which no one takes (apart form Monks and for prereqs). I highly doubt you care about stuff like Break Guard, Net and Trident, Bloody Sabres, or Heaven's Step.
What remains is Two-Weapon Feint and Greater, which is worthless on a Ranger and still not good on a Slayer (which shouldn't focus on sneak attacks), the Spear Dancing Style line, and the Twin Fang Style line.
Yes, going Str based might mean less work with the Ranger Combat Feats, but that also means I can't take any TWF feats if it's not one of those bonus feats.Which feat are you actually talking about? Is there actually a specific feat you want?
The normal progression would be to take TWF at 2nd level, Improved TWF at 6th, sand Two-Weapon Rend at 10th. So which TWF feats with dex prereqs are not included?
Double Slice is crap, the damage increasy is laughable. The same goes for Greater TWF. Two-Weapon Defense is inferior to Dodge, which no one takes (apart form Monks and for prereqs). I highly doubt you care about stuff like Break Guard, Net and Trident, Bloody Sabres, or Heaven's Step.
What remains is Two-Weapon Feint and Greater, which is worthless on a Ranger and still not good on a Slayer (which shouldn't focus on sneak attacks), the Spear Dancing Style line, and the Twin Fang Style line.
Greater's in the combat style as well.
I was mainly talking about Slayer, which can take the respective talent only thrice.