I've been trying to find a group with which to do the Fall of Plaguestone as a Ranger, and was initially going to go with the Teamster background, but something occurred to me - I have no idea what benefit, if any, there is to gain from the Train Animal skill feat, as:
A) You can't have an Animal Companion AND a bonded animal
B) The animal companions don't require a Nature check to command
C) As near as I can tell, animal companions also know all "tricks" possible.
So is there any reason to take this skill feat in Society play beyond flavor options? Or is the usefulness only downgraded for those with existing animal companions?
Gaz'ragar Stonehand wrote: I've been trying to find a group with which to do the Fall of Plaguestone as a Ranger, and was initially going to go with the Teamster background, but something occurred to me - I have no idea what benefit, if any, there is to gain from the Train Animal skill feat, as:
A) You can't have an Animal Companion AND a bonded animal
B) The animal companions don't require a Nature check to command
C) As near as I can tell, animal companions also know all "tricks" possible.
So is there any reason to take this skill feat in Society play beyond flavor options? Or is the usefulness only downgraded for those with existing animal companions?
I asked a similar question awhile back when Core released, but never got an answer. It isn't just the Teamster background that has this issue.
Nearest I can tell, if you take a purely textual approach, animal companions should only be able to do the "Leap, Seek, Stand, Stride, and Strike basic actions" by default. It can also do any activities it knows. This is straight from the Command an Animal rules.
Train Animal would theoretically let you extend the list to other simple actions, such as letting a Canine actively Trip, which is an athletics action not on the baseline list. But in the absence of specific guidance on how much downtime it takes to learn which skills, you're kind of left in the dark. And to make maters worse, animal companions can't do some of their advanced actions if we don't assume they can do some other basic actions. For example, the Snake companion's advanced maneuver requires the snake to have an opponent grabbed, but Grapple isn't on the baseline list. It follows then that the snake should be able to grab. And that the canine should probably be able to trip before it can do Knockdown.
So I think what's happened is that Train Animal feat was intended to be a way to extend the baseline list of companion/animal actions, but left so open ended it's functionally unusable. From what I've seen most GMs have opted to allow players to command their companions to do anything that's reasonable for an animal. A dog can trip, a snake can grapple. The result is the utility of the feat amounts to very little right now since there's no clarification on how much downtime would be needed to train the companion.
We might all be playing it wrong, or maybe this way is better and train animal is just vestigial in organized play. It also might actually matter for non-companion animals... but I haven't seen anyone use them yet either.
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I think the biggest benefit of the fest is in its ability to train animals that aren't your companion, and that not not have a purchase price. It's a pretty cool thing fir a character to be able to do, that does not translate well into society.
The Train Animal feat lists a timeframe of 1 week, which is 7 days of Downtime.
Nefreet wrote: The Train Animal feat lists a timeframe of 1 week, which is 7 days of Downtime. That statement is definitive in a way that oversimplifies this. Training a new basic trick for an animal usually takes a week, and the campaign could come down and say that's the case, but they haven't as far as I'm aware. Training an animal also isn't included in the list of downtime activities players can undertake in society. I agree that this could easily be corrected with a line like "Players may also spend 7 days of downtime to teach a basic simple action (such as those listed under the Athletics skill) to their animal companions if they have the Train Animal skill feat." I don't think this necessarily needs to be overly complicated, but as written I can see where anyone would be hesitant to take or try to use this feat right now. It's basically "Talk to your GM."
Guide to Organized Play: Downtime wrote: Upon completing an adventure that grants XP, you gain days of Downtime that can be spent in a variety of ways. (See Organized Play Basics, under Downtime, for how many days each type of adventure grants.) These include attempting checks to Earn Income and Craft items, as well as retraining. Certain other activities may be available depending on boons or other circumstances as described in the adventure. 'Train Animal' wrote:
Downtime, General, Manipulate, Skill
Source Core Rulebook pg. 268 1.1
Prerequisites trained in Nature
You spend time teaching an animal to do a certain action. You can either select a basic action the animal already knows how to do (typically those listed in the Command an Animal action) or attempt to teach the animal a new basic action. The GM determines the DC of any check required and the amount of time the training takes (usually at least a week). It’s usually impossible to teach an animal a trick that uses critical thinking. If you’re expert, master, or legendary in Nature, you might be able to train more unusual creatures, at the GM’s discretion.
Success The animal learns the action. If it was an action the animal already knew, you can Command the Animal to take that action without attempting a Nature check. If it was a new basic action, add that action to the actions the animal can take when Commanded, but you must still roll.
Failure The animal doesn’t learn the trick.
You cannot reasonably expect the Guide to lay out everything that's already been written in the Core Rulebook, can you?
7 days is the default. If Leadership wants to change the default, they can. They do not, however, need to confirm the default.
That's what the Core Rulebook is there for.
DCs are also listed in the Core Rulebook.
If you're Training your purchased Warhorse, you use the Level 2 DC. If you're Training your Bonded Animal Smilodon, it's a Level 6 DC.
Nefreet wrote: You cannot reasonably expect the Guide to lay out everything that's already been written in the Core Rulebook, can you?
7 days is the default. If Leadership wants to change the default, they can. They do not, however, need to confirm the default.
That's what the Core Rulebook is there for.
I'm not going to have this fight with you, nor do I think you're fairly characterizing what I'm saying. There's a world of difference between clarifying every ambiguous statement ever written in the Core Rulebook and adding a sentence acknowledging the very obvious question "Ask your GM question" that anyone would have about this particular downtime activity.
The Org Play team doesn't have to do anything. They could leave it as is; they could clarify it marginally in the Downtime section of the guide like I suggested; or they could say "You know what, this is too ambiguous and maybe isn't right for organized play so we're going to restrict it." We've obviously gone a year without it. I'm not trying to die on this hill and I'm not attacking them by pointing this out, so I don't think the Org play team needs you to white knight for them on this.
But to answer the OPs question, in the absence of any clarification the Train Animal feat and any background that grants are it are, at best, open for a lot of table variation and, at worst, completely useless.
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cavernshark wrote: Nefreet wrote: You cannot reasonably expect the Guide to lay out everything that's already been written in the Core Rulebook, can you?
7 days is the default. If Leadership wants to change the default, they can. They do not, however, need to confirm the default.
That's what the Core Rulebook is there for.
I'm not going to have this fight with you, nor do I think you're fairly characterizing what I'm saying. There's a world of difference between clarifying every ambiguous statement ever written in the Core Rulebook and adding a sentence acknowledging the very obvious question "Ask your GM question" that anyone would have about this particular downtime activity.
The Org Play team doesn't have to do anything. They could leave it as is; they could clarify it marginally in the Downtime section of the guide like I suggested; or they could say "You know what, this is too ambiguous and maybe isn't right for organized play so we're going to restrict it." We've obviously gone a year without it. I'm not trying to die on this hill and I'm not attacking them by pointing this out, so I don't think the Org play team needs you to white knight for them on this.
But to answer the OPs question, in the absence of any clarification the Train Animal feat and any background that grants are it are, at best, open for a lot of table variation and, at worst, completely useless. Agreed with you on this one, as the CRB doesn't always reflect what is allowed in Society play - and that said, I'll likely swap to the Refugee background, as it grants similar benefits and a more useful Feat. Thanks for the input!
HammerJack wrote: I think the biggest benefit of the fest is in its ability to train animals that aren't your companion, and that not not have a purchase price. It's a pretty cool thing fir a character to be able to do, that does not translate well into society. Which is all well and good... except the Bonded Animal feat explicitly states "Bonding with a new animal ends any previous bond you had. You can’t have both a bonded animal and an animal companion (though you can have both a bonded animal and a familiar)." Which kind of defeats the purpose of doing it with a Beastmaster build, which is what I plan on going for.
And all this said, it would be nice if they issued some guidelines regarding that Feat for Society play, such as example DCs or examples of what types of "Tricks" an animal can learn beyond the core few.
DCs are already covered in the Core Rulebook (see Level-Based DCs), so that needn't be confirmed again.
And Campaign Leadership doesn't create rules, like new Tricks. That's for the Design Team to implement in future sources.
Honestly, if you are encountering a GM who isn't allowing this, and they are unwilling to listen to reason, escalate the issue to the people above them, and eventually you'll get everyone on the same page.
Nefreet wrote: Honestly, if you are encountering a GM who isn't allowing this, and they are unwilling to listen to reason, escalate the issue to the people above them, and eventually you'll get everyone on the same page. Er, isn't allowing what, exactly? As I said, my concern is that the Feat, as written, says: "You spend time teaching an animal to do a certain action. You can either select a basic action the animal already knows how to do (typically those listed in the Command an Animal action) or attempt to teach the animal a new basic action", and Command an Animal mentions Leap, Seek, Stand, Stride, and Strike explicitly as common knowledge actions.
The Basic Actions they don't know, according to this list - https://2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx - are:
Aid (requires their being Trained+ in a skill, so likely disallowed due to "It’s usually impossible to teach an animal a trick that uses critical thinking.")
Crawl
Drop Prone
Escape
Interact (limited viability, and a lot of GMs might just allow that out-of-hand depending on the animal)
Invest An Item (see Aid)
Ready
Release
Sense Motive (again, see Aid)
Step
Take Cover
None of which strike me as... particularly useful to know, outside of Step to not provoke an AOO, but since that's a lot less common in 2e, it's not as much of an issue.
Then I don't understand what you're asking.
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