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Jason (and everyone else here),
My players, rules lawyers that they are, are feeling a little put out. I’ve managed to kill all the PCs (but one) at least once and they are feeling aggrieved at the nastiness of the Age of Worms...
One thing that has them irked is the sheer nastiness of the Greater Doppelganger fighters in Hall of Harsh Reflections. The 1-8+6, +13/+8 attacks and the AC 22 had them irked. The criticals were flying fast and furious and the party felt truly overpowered.
What’s got the up in arms now is the CR level of Telakin. They are of the view that Telakin’s Wizard levels should have added to his CR as a Doppelganger 1 for 1. Even if it is a ½ addition, the apparently 8th level Wizard Telakin and the CR9 Greater Doppelganger indicates a CR of 13, not 9 or 10.
When I withdrew the three Greater Doppelganger fighters from the maze to aid Telakin in his Throne room, the proper EL level skyrockets - depending on how you assess the CR of Matal and Regim (on whose entries I based the Gr Doppelgagner fighters).
Given that I just about TPK’d them in Hall of Harsh Reflections a few times, they are feeling that the CRs for the real creature threats are not being accurately reflected in the module. I have to admit - I'm inclined to agree with them.
Any feedback on how you determined the CR level of these foes Jason? I expect the whining will escalate when they get to Zyrxog’s CR!
To anybody else? Your view on the appropriate CR to assign to Martal and Regim and the fighters based on their entries (CR6) and Telakin (CR9? 10? 13?).
Martal and Regim look to be CR9 at least, possibly higher, while Telakin appears to be a CR13 – by the book.
Opinions?
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My group's approaching this part of the path soon, and it is one of several things that I had concerns about in this module. By concerns, I mean something that I know I'll need to watch carefully, not something poorly designed or necessarily needing to be changed.
I thought the Doppelganger fighters (like Martal and Regim) should maybe have earned a CR 7 rather than CR 6. As for Telakin, a CR 9 might be a little too light but its hard to gauge because of his interesting abilities.
My 6 PCs will have just graced 8th/9th level by the time they take these guys on. As such, I was thinking of throwing in another Greater Doppelganger to spice things up. Maybe I need to reconsider this based upon your experiences?
Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
I find interesting all of the chatter I have read about the hall of Harsh Reflections. My players have just finished with TFoE and so we still have Blackwall keep to get through, which as far as I have read is a underpowered adventure, well developed to help make the players feel that they are becoming powerful and effective (which I think is good sometimes). From what I have read though the Hall of Harsh Reflections is a really nasty nasty fight, that has killed, it seems, more players and parties than any other supplement, possibly even combined.
As I have yet to run the module, what single piece of advice could people give to make it a little, not a lot, easier for the players to survive, and maybe even make the module run a little smoother. Aka. if you could axe one combat or set of combatents who would they be?
The doppelganger fighters are really strong and hurt my PCs badly both fights. Telakin, on the other hand, was extremely easy. His scroll nearly killed one or two PCs, but he died to a fighter and some summoned wolves before doing anything else. Zyrxog was a hard fight and great battle. He ended up plane shifting away with 3/5 PCs stunned, because he would have died otherwise.
Nobody died in my HoHR. I lost my first PC in the Champion's Belt to the Alkilith Demon.
Well, let's look at this one step at a time, shall we?
First, the doppelgangers. Your typical, by-the-book dop is a 4 HD monstrous humanoid with some interesting special abilities (which we all know about), not to mention very nice stat bonuses. Despite these, it's only CR 3. Adding four levels of fighter would add at least +2 to the CR, if it's a 'nonassociated class' -- and, really, is there such a thing for dops? So, add one per level. There's a minimum of CR 7, more than twice the original. But it's base attack is doubled, it's got three times the hit points, and a slew of additional feats. So, yes, I think CR 6 is a little too low.
Telakin is fairly straightforward. Sure, he's got all the standard dop abilities with more HD to back them up. Not to mention spellcasting AND barbarian rage. Why isn't his CR higher? It's because he can't use all of it at once. Quite literally, a greater doppelganger changes completely into the assumed form, even down to alignment. (This one is important, especially if the group has any aligned weapons.) If he's in a rage and switches to wizard form, he loses all the rage benefits and is immediately fatigued. He's like having two characters fight the group, but only one at a time, and sharing one pool of hit points.
The illithid is a whole new paint job, though. They gave a standard mind-flayer eight levels in sorcerer. Take a look at your copy of the Monster Manual, where they have an advanced squid with eight levels of wizard. It's CR 17.
Be sure to check the section on advancing critters; they mention that class levels add +1 CR per level, or +1 per 2 levels if it's an inappropriate class (such as a gnoll taking wizard levels). Looking at the CR, it's obvious that the writer considered sorcerer levels "inappropriate". Why? Because an illithid's favored class is wizard.
Here I was lost. Both are arcane spellcasters, both are fairly equivalent in power; the only difference is in application. Zyrxog is just as nasty as the one in the book, because they both have access to the same level of spells, along with their mind-scrambling, insane SR, and everything else. An eighth-level sorcerer is just as nasty as an eighth-level wizard.
When I ran this part of the scenario, Zyrxog was levitating over the pool, ensuring the heroes couldn't reach him (since none of them had flying spells, as he knew). He had resistance to both fire and electricity -- one from the room, the other from a spell -- so the party's wizard was hamstrung. It didn't help that no one could get past his spell resistance. At all.
No, really, LOOK at that part. This was designed for a party of 7th-level characters. Optimally, they reach 9th level by the end, likely before they reach the squid. So, anyone want to tell me the chances of a 9th-level caster affecting a creature with a spell resistance of 32? Even with Spell Penetration it can't be done, and with Greater Spell Penetration, only one spell in ten will work. Unless your party has extremely good foresight, the guy's going to be pretty much immune to spells.
He was basically free to rain spells on the party, with the occasional mind blast for flavoring. The only thing that stopped him was missing a save against a drow-venomed crossbow bolt. And it took a BAD roll to get that; without it, he'd've taken the group down in about four rounds total.
My advice? Get out your pencils, remove four levels from the squid. He's the reason this chapter's resulted in so many TPKs; Jason must've really misinterpreted the 'non-associated class' part of the CR advancement rules.
I'd really like to hear how the group playing at the Paizo office got past this guy.
I'm running this one right now, too. The way things worked out I ended up with three PCs trying to rescue the fourth, who was arrested for the assault on Tarquin and then "disappeared" Pinochet style from the night watch's jail. So I cut one of the mimics out of the warehouse room and it still burned significant resources, and Martal and Regim took down two of three party members before they died. (I ruled that large steel shields were a bit difficult to hid under their straw pallets and a bit difficult to strap on in the heat of a surprise attack, so I lowered their AC by two. I did a double-take on the attack bonus when I ran the encounter, but it checked out. I could see making fighter associated levels for doppelgangers--as monstrous humanoids they get the most favorable BAB progression, making their monster hit dice stack quite favorably with fighter levels.
I threw both stalkers at them in the balance-beam room--since the party wizard (DMPC) is now a doppelganger he can only use the real wizard's scrolls and wands, and the party was only able to retreat from the room alive with some creative use of the rope of climbing to extricate their comrades who went in the drink. I nerfed the swords in the water a bit (cut down on number of attacks per square when swimming), and had to fudge a couple of die rolls for the stalkers, or they would have left two bodies in the water. I may put one of the stalkers in the warehouse when they return, which will remind them that they can't take room clearance for granted when they've retreated overnight, make the individual encounters not quite so tough, but force them to burn more glitterdust and/or see invisibility spells to get through. The doppelganger wizard is going to have to make a quick shopping trip to the wizard's guild before closing time to load up on scrolls, otherwise he's going to blow his cover.
Director of Games
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Hello all,
Let me walk you through my thought processes on some of these decisions, so that you can better see where I am coming from.
-Doppleganger Figthers Martal and Regim. Fighter is a non-associated class for dopplegangers, whose strength lies in deception and guile, clearly rogue abilities. As noted the doppleganger rogues in the adventure add their levels 1 for 1. These two are about on par with other CR 6 monsters and quite below the power of some others (such as the ettin).
-Telakin. As mentioned here, Telakin is good at many things, but none of them all at once. Adding the levels of brains he has consumed to his CR makes him rediculously over CR'ed for his power level. This is a much toned down version of the 3.0 greater doppleganger and I think it works quite well. He is CR 9, but cannot have the class abilities of any creature above 9th level. He may have versatility, and that is quite an edge, but he severly lacks in other areas.
-Zyrxog. As has been mentioned in numerous other threads, the advanced mind flayer in the MM has the incorrect CR. Sorcerer levels do not add much to the mind flayers power. For a class level to be associated it needs to play to the strengths of the creature. Since Mind Flayers have not spellcaster levels, additional levels do not directly add to their ability. If you are using the psionic version of the Mind Flayer and add psionic class levels, that is a whole other ball of wax.
Of course... it is your game, and you are free to differ and change whatever you like.
Jason Bulmahn
Managing Editor of Dragon
Hello all,
-Zyrxog. As has been mentioned in numerous other threads, the advanced mind flayer in the MM has the incorrect CR.
Of course... it is your game, and you are free to differ and change whatever you like.
That is TRUE...The CR in MM is wrong it's in the errata and it's been said numerous more times.
On a side note...CR 11 is still a tough call and I gave my group XP for a CR 12 which I think is closer to reality. Don't kid yourself if your players don't prepare for him or buff the right way they are going to die.
My players paid for a Divination and learned about:"spell flowing on him like water on a duck" and "that the purifying fire will get them laughs from the purple menace". After that they researched Illithids and bough scrolls of Spell Immunity for the cleric and barbarian...so they became immune to mind blasts.
What I'm trying to say...preparation is everything here. Gently nudge your players in that direction.
I think this thread highlights the danger of strict adherence to the rule about "non-associated class levels." You have to be VERY careful in adding so-called "non-associated" levels or you will quickly unbalance the encounter.
Non-associated levels are supposed to add +1 CR per two nonassociated levels (Note, I'm referring to these rules from memory since they aren't part of the SRD). This by itself doesn't seem overpowering when calculating a monster's challenge rating, as for lots of monsters it doesn't equate to 1:1 for hit dice anyway. Lots of fighting-type monsters have high hit dice to challenge rating ratios, while those that rely on their spell like abilities (outsiders, mind-flayers, etc) match up closer to 1:1 (and sometimes even less).
The problem comes in a couple of situations:
1) Creatures with lots of hit dice- the rule allows non-associated levels to be added 2 levels: 1 CR up to a creature's hit dice. Higher hit dice creatures can squeeze more from this rule adding far more to their power. Consider an evil Cloud Giant (17 HD, CR 11) with 8 levels of Sorcerer (+4 CR because its non-associated). This is actually better than just taking 4 levels of fighter (which would also be +4 CR as associated levels). Consider that the giant gains the same BAB, way more hitpoints (8d4+48 v. 4d10+24) and better saves (the higher Will save helps more when it already has a good Fort). True the giant doesn't gain the 3 feats from 4 levels of Fighter, but instead gets 8 casters levels from Sorcerer. We all know that 8th level caster is way better than 3 feats.
2) Poorly defined "non-associated" levels: The second problem is that the definition of non-associated levels leaves something to be desired. Consider the idea put forward that sorcerer and wizard levels are non-associated for a mind flayer. What then, if anything, would be an associated level? Certainly they aren't fighter types, not rogue-like either, and cleric seems a poor fit. They have the intelligence/charisma to take advantage of the wizard and sorcerer levels and it fits with their style of play (behind the line spell-like ability user), yet those levels aren't associated?
Consider also cleric levels. Those don't seem to be associated for any monster (at least that I can think of off the top of my head, which seems wrong if you consider undead...). Yet they add 3/4 BAB, d8 hit die (same as most monsters), two good saves, good skill access, and solid spell-casting (all you need is an average Wisdom score to take advantage of this since you get an ability point with every 4 hit dice anyway). 6-8 levels of non-associated cleric will quickly unbalance any monster.
It's all the fad to use monsters with "non-associated" levels. A DM would be wise to keep a careful eye on these encounters. The rule is meant as an approximation, and literal adherence to it will run into problems.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I think this thread highlights the danger of strict adherence to the rule about "non-associated class levels." You have to be VERY careful in adding so-called "non-associated" levels or you will quickly unbalance the encounter.
I think the thread highlights the dangers of relying on numbers instead of playtesting and considering the way in which encounters play out. These CR based arguments always cover the same ground and always fail to acknowledge that the ultimate currency in the D&D game is the number of actions per round. To quote the highlander, there can be only one.
Zyrag's CR is right. He's near the top of his CR, but at the end of the day the most powerful thing he does is what all mindflayers do, he mindblasts you. The spells are just icing and give him something to do other than hit the PC's with a pointy stick. They don't really add to his threat level.
If Zyrog were a mindflayer clr2/wiz2/drd2/sor2, you wouldn't hear any argument that he is too powerful. That's because it would be obvious that his main attack (his mindblast) is independent of and irrelevant to these class abilities. Concentrating his class levels makes them less irrelevant, but still doesn't change the fact that the threat he poses derives almost entirely from his racial abilities and not his class abilities.
At a certain point, this balance obviously shifts. Once he becomes a wiz20, it's pretty clear that his main action is using 9th level spells and not his mindblasts. Thus, the majority of his threat derives from his class levels and not his racial abilities.
The non-associated class system isn't really that far off. The ability to cast 1st or 2nd level spells is completely irrelevant for monsters above, say, CR 7. That's why the spellcasting classes are normally non-associated, including cleric and druid. It's only when the CR 7 creature is already a 5th level spellcaster that an additional level makes more than a marginal difference to its power.
We all know that 8th level caster is way better than 3 feats.
Isn't that effectively the trade the paladin and ranger makes vis a vis the fighter?
Being an 8th level caster is largely irrelevant for a giant. His 3rd level spells are not going to effect the battle that much, particularly when compared with how much damage he could do if he started swinging (and particularly if he had a feat tree to back up those swings).
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Creative Director
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CR scores are, in and of themselves, maddening. Take the dread wraith, for example. It's a CR 11 monster, but against a party of clerics and other classes with ranged or reach ghost-touch weapons and suddenly the dread wraith's almost a pushover. Throw a dread wraith against an equal level party with lots of rogues and enchanters and bards and POW. You'll probably have a TPK on your hands.
And you're correct; it gets even trickier when you start adding class levels or advancing monsters or handing out templates. For example, advance an aboleth up to 24Hit Dice. By the book, 4 aberration HD = a +1 CR bump. A size change from for a creature is a +1 bump. So now, we have a 24 HD aboleth at CR 12. It's probably more or less still on the mark here, but what happens when we add the half-fiend template? It's CR goes up to 14, but look at the blasphemy power it got; a creature capable of casting a 24th level blasphemy spell is going to RUIN anything with only 14 character levels.
So yeah, strict adherence to the rules is not always a good thing. Assigning CR is as much of an art as it is a science. If in your experience an encounter ended up being far tougher than the adventure expected it to be, you should absolutely bump up the XP award.
Dude, it's your day off... shouldn't you be watching 24? Jack needs your help!
Thank you for this deep look into the challenges of HoHR. I think I am going to do a practice run on my own on the Squid to see just how powerful he is. As far as CRs 1/2 levels vs. 1 level, I woul probably test that out on a more individual basis, because in some cases for instance a monster could jump rapidly in power by being given a non-associated class, if for no other reason that it expands their choice of abilities.
I like the advice about divinations. That seems to be a good way of introducing the players to the idea that at higher level play they are expected to use the magicical information spells avaliable to them and to not just walk into conflicts blindly.
If Zyrog were a mindflayer clr2/wiz2/drd2/sor2, you wouldn't hear any argument that he is too powerful. That's because it would be obvious that his main attack (his mindblast) is independent of and irrelevant to these class abilities. Concentrating his class levels makes them less irrelevant, but still doesn't change the fact that the threat he poses derives almost entirely from his racial abilities and not his class abilities.At a certain point, this balance obviously shifts. Once he becomes a wiz20, it's pretty clear that his main action is using 9th level spells and not his mindblasts. Thus, the majority of his threat derives from his class levels and not his racial abilities.
The non-associated class system isn't really that far off. The ability to cast 1st or 2nd level spells is completely irrelevant for monsters above, say, CR 7. That's why the spellcasting classes are normally non-associated, including cleric and druid. It's only when the CR 7 creature is already a 5th level spellcaster that an additional level makes more than a marginal difference to its power.
I agree that Wiz2/Sor2/Clr2/Drd2 isn't unbalancing because its well established that casters are weak at the first few levels, but scale up quickly in power. Now if that were instead Ftr2/Bar2/Rgr2/Hexblade2 (or whatever combination of fighter types) then that would be a whole different story since their power curve is balanced to lower levels. The mind flayer would then have the melee ability to take out all those people who fail against an initial mind blast (and with the extra hp and BAB, I can see more than one brain getting extracted...).
But consider that even at mid-challenge ratings the system can fall apart. Let's take a hill giant (HD 12, CR 7) and add 12 non-associated cleric levels (+6 CR). The hill giant is now CR 13, but with 12 caster levels. Those 12 cleric levels provide 4 feats, so let's take three of them as Practiced Spellcaster (+4 CL), Quicken Spell, and Improved Toughness (+24 hp). Supposedly this CR 13 critter is equivalent to a 13th level cleric, but our hill giant casts spells at 16th level (although only has the allotment of a 12th level cleric), has nearly twice the hit dice (and a way better CON to add even more hit points) and +9 BAB higher (along with a STR score through the roof). This guys slaughters people in melee (casting ahead of time greater magic weapon for +4 and magic vestment for +4 AC due to CL 16 and lasting 16 hours) and would probably lead off with a quickened divine favor or shield of faith. (Note to self, use this guy next time...).
But this matters even at low levels. Let's take an Ogre (4HD, CR 3) and add 4 levels of cleric (+2 CR). Now we're at CR 5 so no character has extra attacks yet (except two weapon fighting, flurry of blows etc.). So actions do matter. But that extra +3 BAB from cleric levels now gives the Ogre Cleric a second attack (+11/+6 for 2d8+7 damage). Oh, and the Ogre gets the wisdom to cast spells from the addition of the elite stat array (hello +4 wisdom from that). And to add insult to injury, let's use those cleric levels to again take Practiced Spellcaster so that the Ogre Cleric casts at 8th level, so those supposedly insignificant 1st and 2nd level spells pack some punch.
BTW, the Ogre could also just as well become the dreaded Ogre Wizard (not to be confused with the Ogre Magi...heh heh). 4 levels of wizard instead of 4 levels of cleric combo in very nicely. But you say Ogres have crappy INT? Well you start with the elite stat array 15 INT - 4 racial +1 from character levels for a total 12 INT (good enough for 2nd level spells). Now again with Practiced Spellcaster, you get an 8th level caster for some nasty Scorching Rays (2 rays at +4 touch for 4d6), Ray of Enfeeblement (1d6+4 Str), long lasting Mage Armor and Shield spells (each +4 AC), and let's not forget the kicker, False Life (1d10+8 hp for 8 hours. That gives our Ogre Wizard 4d4+8, or 18 hp plus another 13 from false life for a total of 60 hp, pretty good for CR 5..and we could squeeze another 5 hp swapping Toughness with Improved Toughness). Our Ogre Wizard is basically a 4th level wizard that can take all the punishment of a 5th level fighter. Sounds like a nasty combination to me. (Another note to self, use this guy too...).
Really, the more I think about it, non-associated class levels far outshine associated class levels.
I plan on using the psionic Zyrxog found in this thread:
http://paizo.com/dungeon/messageboards/ageOfWorms/archives/dungeon127AMindF layerSorcerer&page=1#31904
Zryxog is only a 3rd level Telepath but the creator of the stat block warns that he close to a CR12.
My group is only now beginning Three Faces of Evil so I've got time to make adjustments. Has anyone else used this version of Zyrxog and have results to share?
I plan on using the psionic Zyrxog found in this thread:
http://paizo.com/dungeon/messageboards/ageOfWorms/archives/dungeon127AMindF layerSorcerer&page=1#31904Zryxog is only a 3rd level Telepath but the creator of the stat block warns that he close to a CR12.
My group is only now beginning Three Faces of Evil so I've got time to make adjustments. Has anyone else used this version of Zyrxog and have results to share?
I used a straight XPH psionic illithid with zyxog's gear, and just about wiped the floor with my party (5 level 7 characters).
they went in with about half-depleated resources overall (the psion only had 7 pp left, though), and came out everyone in the single-digits or negatives, having exhausted a lot of their potions and spells. with his mind blast and psionic dominate, Zyrxog was really hard to get to for most of the battle, and his mind blasts dropped half the party at a time. the party would wait, and discover that he managed to dominate the mind blasted ones (they had low saves, right?) which turned on them and started the slaughter.
then he got out of range and used body adjustment (augmented) and potions to get some hit points back.
he eventually lost just because he ran out of power points.
It was an awesome fight, and it left my players who hadn't encountered illithids before in awe.
My players, rules lawyers that they are, are feeling a little put out. I’ve managed to kill all the PCs (but one) at least once and they are feeling aggrieved at the nastiness of the Age of Worms...
I think the problem is that your players are focusing too much on the mechanics, i.e. the meta-game aspects, and missing the point of playing the role-play game.
I had a similar experience in the campaign I ran before the Age of Worms - a couple of players kept working out the CR of combats, then complaining they were not in the "correct" range. I told them to stop meta-gaming and focus on the task at hand, i.e. playing their characters and doing what makes sense. If the combat got too fierce, get out of the kitchen! I'd told them at the beginning that I was going to run a world that made sense to me, not one that was tailored exactly to their PC's at that particular moment, so from time to time a combat might be a bit tough or too easy, but I guess it took a while for that to actually sink in and for them to adapt. But they did get it and adapt, after I gave them a strong reminder outside the game time, saying how I wasn't out to get them, but their actions (complaints) were basically killing my fun in the game. I was also the instigator of DM's rolling in the open, and now my mates all do the same in their games too - as a player, it certainly sharpens your wits and makes you take threats seriously.
I'd suggest you try a similar approach - tell them outside the gaming table, what sort of game you're trying to run, that their complaints during the game are not necessary, and to get on with playing it as a character not as a set of combats that are tailored to hit their sweet-spot. For your part, do have a think about whether you need to boost their party a level above that listed in order to help them survive (using a side-treck somewhere), only you can judge how strong your players and their characters are. For me, my current group only has 3 PC's so I've had them about a level above the suggested levels, sometimes two, but to be honest they have started to really stroll through a lot of encounters from 9-11th levels, so I'm pegging it back to only one level above and seeing how they go, the idea being to have a few challenging encounters but still let them trounce some encounters. But I guess my group has one very smart player with a mage who's really coming into her own, and two other strong characters with good players too, so as a team they have really worked out good spells and other tactics to help them win a lot of combats while minimising the risk to themselves. That said, we've had two deaths, one a PC and one her follower, but rather than annoy the group too much, in the end they both ended up as very strong learning points for the players, and also good story points as the group worked to find a way to get them raised from the dead (not an easy task in my world, both requiring ties to various churches the PC's were not members of).
Me, I'm a strong DM with good knowledge of the rules and everything, but I DM very straight up and down, not favouring the PC's nor their opponents, just doing what makes sense for the encounter, i.e. I avoid meta-gaming too. So as a group we're a pretty happy lot.
Good luck.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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But consider that even at mid-challenge ratings the system can fall apart. Let's take a hill giant (HD 12, CR 7) and add 12 non-associated cleric levels (+6 CR). The hill giant is now CR 13, but with 12 caster levels. Those 12 cleric levels provide 4 feats, so let's take three of them as Practiced Spellcaster (+4 CL), Quicken Spell, and Improved Toughness (+24 hp). Supposedly this CR 13 critter is equivalent to a 13th level cleric, but our hill giant casts spells at 16th level (although only has the allotment of a 12th level cleric), has nearly twice the hit dice (and a way better CON to add even more hit points) and +9 BAB higher (along with a STR score through the roof). This guys slaughters people in melee (casting ahead of time greater magic weapon for +4 and magic vestment for +4 AC due to CL 16 and lasting 16 hours) and would probably lead off with a quickened divine favor or shield of faith. (Note to self, use this guy next time...).
But this matters even at low levels. Let's take an Ogre (4HD, CR 3) and add 4 levels of cleric (+2 CR). Now we're at CR 5 so no character has extra attacks yet (except two weapon fighting, flurry of blows etc.). So actions do matter. But that extra +3 BAB from cleric levels now gives the Ogre Cleric a second attack (+11/+6 for 2d8+7 damage). Oh, and the Ogre gets the wisdom to cast spells from the addition of the elite stat array (hello +4 wisdom from that). And to add insult to injury, let's use those cleric levels to again take Practiced Spellcaster so that the Ogre Cleric casts at 8th level, so those supposedly insignificant 1st and 2nd level spells pack some punch.
BTW, the Ogre could also just as well become the dreaded Ogre Wizard (not to be confused with the Ogre Magi...heh heh). 4 levels of wizard instead of 4 levels of cleric combo in very nicely. But you say Ogres have crappy INT? Well you start with the elite stat array 15 INT - 4 racial +1 from character levels for a total 12 INT (good enough for 2nd level spells). Now again with Practiced Spellcaster, you get an 8th level caster for some nasty Scorching Rays (2 rays at +4 touch for 4d6), Ray of Enfeeblement (1d6+4 Str), long lasting Mage Armor and Shield spells (each +4 AC), and let's not forget the kicker, False Life (1d10+8 hp for 8 hours. That gives our Ogre Wizard 4d4+8, or 18 hp plus another 13 from false life for a total of 60 hp, pretty good for CR 5..and we could squeeze another 5 hp swapping Toughness with Improved Toughness). Our Ogre Wizard is basically a 4th level wizard that can take all the punishment of a 5th level fighter. Sounds like a nasty combination to me. (Another note to self, use this guy too...).
Really, the more I think about it, non-associated class levels far outshine associated class levels.
I think you vastly overestimate the effectiveness of being able to cast spells. That ogre with the 12 intelligence is going to have save DC's around 13 for his 2nd level spells. He is nowhere near the threat of a dedicated spellcaster with a 16 in his primary casting score and save DC's around 15. Every point of save DC matters, which is why it takes a feat just to get a +1 to that number.
Also, your ogre is wasting his abilities by going ranged. The ogre's reach allows him to dominate melee. Characters can't easily enter or exit his threat zone, they have trouble getting healed while near him, and it's hard to get around him. You also haven't examined the benefits the ogre would get for having the elite array and taking 2 levels in fighter instead of 4 levels in cleric. That would bring his Str up to 27. Yeah, he doesn't get extra attacks due to a high BAB, but he's going to get 3 bonus feats. You could give him two weapon fighting and because you didn't have to waste your highest stat in Wis/Int, and he will have a higher attack bonus than he would with levels in cleric.
Taking levels in wiz/cleric waters down the melee types. They have to put good scores in their casting stats instead of their melee stats, their spells aren't impressive to their foes due to the relatively low saves, and their combat abilities are not substantially improved. It doesn't always come out perfect, but the non-associated class levels are a pretty good rule of thumb.
Here's my question: do you think the mystic theurge is overpowered?
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I think the problem is that your players are focusing too much on the mechanics, i.e. the meta-game aspects, and missing the point of playing the role-play game.Tell that their complaints during the game are not necessary, and to get on with playing it as a character not as a set of combats that are tailored to hit their sweet-spot.
Uhmm...no.
To clarify - all but one of my players have been for 25 years+ and one of them has been playing for 31 years now, (Original D&D in 1975). This is not a case where taking players aside and telling them "how" they should play D&D is at all relevant.
These complaints are not offered during play but at the end of the session.
Hello all,
Let me walk you through my thought processes on some of these decisions, so that you can better see where I am coming from
Thanks for taking the time to respond Jason.
To clarify - all but one of my players have been for 25 years+ and one of them has been playing for 31 years now, (Original D&D in 1975). This is not a case where taking players aside and telling them "how" they should play D&D is at all relevant.
Good, thanks for the additional info. I just wondered, as in my last game it was the most experienced player that was the biggest metagamer and complainer, but once I called him on it he was pretty much fine after a while of "re-training" himself. No-one's perfect, regardless of experience, my groups are all veterans too, but we all can improve from time to time.
Anyway, I do think the Age of Worms assumes you have a strong set of players with strong characters. If you've got experienced players, I can only guess they don't have a strong party composition? Or maybe they are just unlucky from time to time? I know people's experiences have varied a lot, you see my group has pretty much waltzed through the Hall of Harsh Reflections and most of the Champion's Games so far, and I was expecting them to really struggle.
I think some of my original advice still stands though - work out what you need to do as a group to make it more fun for all. Maybe aim them at the adventures a level higher than listed so they are not so likely to die, maybe thin the odd area to make it not such a relentless grind of tough encounters; as DM only you can judge what works best for your group of characters, as I say, mine are currently tougher than I'd have expected so I've actually started boosting the odd encounter here and there (just the ones with NPC's with character classes). Plenty of groups have got through the Age of Worms without a lot of deaths, so it's possible, then on the flip side plenty have found it a meat-grinder, as always once size doesn't fit all.
Lastly, I'd hope that your players can rise to the challenge too, the way I read your original post it sounded like they were complaining that "it wasn't fair". If that's the case at all (I could have read it wrong), they are not in the right frame of mind to lift their game, and lifting their game is exactly what the Age of Worms demands of its players. It should be a challenge for them, so as I say, see what you can tweak to help get them back on track in beating up the bad guys, with challenges that are difficult but not impossible (perceptions are what matter; as long as they perceive the challenges to be beatable, they should give it their all to do so; unfortunately, a lot of players give up if they think it's unbeatable). If all they need is game mechanics explanations for how it is fair, then I'm afraid that's not possible, as too many encounters are too powerful, according to the standard "rules" for such things. But that's missing the point of the campaign, so hopefully you're not in that camp as if you are you're better off running a different campaign or settign the PC's two levels above that listed so things are more "by the book" and filling in with extra encounters / side-trecks to get them the XP required.
All the best.
I think you vastly overestimate the effectiveness of being able to cast spells. That ogre with the 12 intelligence is going to have save DC's around 13 for his 2nd level spells. He is nowhere near the threat of a dedicated spellcaster with a 16 in his primary casting score and save DC's around 15. Every point of save DC matters, which is why it takes a feat just to get a +1 to that number.
Also, your ogre is wasting his abilities by going ranged. The ogre's reach allows him to dominate melee. Characters can't easily enter or exit his threat zone, they have trouble getting healed while near him, and it's hard to get around him. You also haven't examined the benefits the ogre would get for having the elite array and taking 2 levels in fighter instead of 4 levels in cleric. That would bring his Str up to 27. Yeah, he doesn't get extra attacks due to a high BAB, but he's going to get 3 bonus feats. You could give him two weapon fighting and because you didn't have to waste your highest stat in Wis/Int, and he will have a higher attack bonus than he would with levels in cleric.
Taking levels in wiz/cleric waters down the melee types. They have to put good scores in their casting stats instead of their melee stats, their spells aren't impressive to their foes due to the relatively low saves, and their combat abilities are not substantially improved. It doesn't always come out perfect, but the non-associated class levels are a pretty good rule of thumb.
Actually, I think you're not considering the vast number of spells available to spellcasters that have nothing at all to do with save DCs. Sure, there are some good spells out there with spell DCs, I don't deny that. But you also can't deny that there are plenty of equally effective spells without spell DCs. Almost all low level defensive spells (shield, mage armor, false life, shield of faith, etc.) could care less about your spell DC. There are also good attack spells that don't care either (ray of enfeeblement, scorching ray, magic missile, etc.). The example I pointed out with the Ogre Wizard can use spells to pump his AC through the roof, making him live longer. I like your dual wielding Ogre Fighter (although he only gets two bonus fighter feats, the other one due to HD really should count since that works for any class levels). But the Ogre Fighter gets nothing for improving AC, hp, etc. Just two more feats for a second attack. And let's not forget that the Ogre Cleric gets a second attack without needing any feats just due to the extra HD (4 HD and +3 BAB v. 2 HD and +2 BAB).
You also have to remember, the spells are just gravy. Its the 2 HD for 1 CR that makes it really strong. The cleric gets 4 HD, 4 x CON bonus and +3 BAB vs. a Fighter getting only 2 HD, 2 x CON bonus and +2 BAB for the same CR increase. Add a few spells (that aren't save DC dependent naturally) and its not even a fair comparison. Even the Ogre Wizard gains the same in hp from HD, but gets an extra 2 x CON bonus.
Here's my question: do you think the mystic theurge is overpowered?
You know, I hear this question batted around all the time at it amazes me people still ask this. Of course the mystic thuerge isn't overpowered. Its not even powered at all until you maybe get to 8-10 levels in the class where you can fuel a lot of Quickened spells. Even then, it still suffers and the best its got going for it is versitility. If you did mean to make the comparison on losing some caster levels in favor of more effectiveness, I take it you meant to compare the much closer Eldritch Knight/Spellsword combos out there? They lose a few caster levels but gain WAY more in effectiveness (can efficiently fight and cast spells, a potent combination along the lines of what we're talking about here with non-assocaited caster levels stacking with a fighter type base creature).
But the mystic theurge is apples to oranges for what we're talking about. Gestalt characters are much closer because what we're really observing is that you can squeeze extra HD out with nonassociated levels for free (much like a gestalt character can get essentially two levels for every level, although the nonassociated levels still win out because they actually get double HD).
I know the general rule is that losing caster levels are bad and that mixing casters with non-casters makes for a weak combination. But you have to remember the corollary to the rule that certain prestige classes are the exception (i.e. Eldritch Knight, Sacred Fist, etc.) that make for even stronger combinations. Nonassociated levels to the same thing by adding twice the power for the same cost.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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You also have to remember, the spells are just gravy. Its the 2 HD for 1 CR that makes it really strong. The cleric gets 4 HD, 4 x CON bonus and +3 BAB vs. a Fighter getting only 2 HD, 2 x CON bonus and +2 BAB for the same CR increase. Add a few spells (that aren't save DC dependent naturally) and its not even a fair comparison. Even the Ogre Wizard gains the same in hp from HD, but gets an extra 2 x CON bonus.
You have a good point. However, the fighter type classes bring abilities to the table that are better than the spells. Saying they are just gravy ignores the fact that the ogre becomes better in combat because, he can rage, moves 10' faster or has a bonus feat. These abilities build on the ogres strength in combat. The extra time he lasts in combat through higher AC and hit points is only as good as his ability to actually do something effective during that time. I would submit that most of the spells with no save are not as effective as him just hitting people with his weapon (and not nearly as effective as hitting someone with his weapon while raging).
You know, I hear this question batted around all the time at it amazes me people still ask this. Of course the mystic thuerge isn't overpowered. Its not even powered at all until you maybe get to 8-10 levels in the class where you can fuel a lot of Quickened spells. Even then, it still suffers and the best its got going for it is versitility. If you did mean to make the comparison on losing some caster levels in favor of more effectiveness, I take it you meant to compare the much closer Eldritch Knight/Spellsword combos out there? They lose a few caster levels but gain WAY more in effectiveness (can efficiently fight and cast spells, a potent combination along the lines of what we're talking about here with non-assocaited caster levels stacking with a fighter type base creature).
I hadn't even considered the Eldritch Knight/Spellsword combo. I've always assumed those were sub-optimal builds due to my reasoning that just a touch of spellcasting is basically worthless. Plus, in the context of an adventuring party, the arguments about being able to buff yourself are not as strong. The reason you've got so many people in a party is to allow specialization. It's (generally) better to have the straight casters buff you than to develop the ability to buff yourself. That being said, I find that I've made the mistake of making an assumption about power level without having played the rules in question. I will see if I can't get one of my players to run a spellsword/eldritch knight build so I can get a chance to see how they operate in play. You may well be correct.
The question about the mystic theurge was mostly to get a baseline on your reasoning. It's hard to discuss non-associated classes with someone who doesn't even understand why the mystic theurge is balanced.
But the mystic theurge is apples to oranges for what we're talking about. Gestalt characters are much closer because what we're really observing is that you can squeeze extra HD out with nonassociated levels for free (much like a gestalt character can get essentially two levels for every level, although the nonassociated levels still win out because they actually get double HD).
I don't think its entirely apples/oranges, but you are probably right that the melee/magic prestige classes are closer. I was under the impression that they were entirely ineffective combos, so I will have to playtest them. However, it really depends on why they are more effective. A monster only ever gets 2-5 rounds to strut his stuff. If he doesn't gain an ability that is better than what he can do in those 2-5 rounds, he's not any more of a challenge. Increased defensive capability might increase the number of rounds he gets to act, but giving him a better ability to use on round 1 is the best way to increase his challenge level. The added spellcasting doesn't give you anything better to do on round 1. It gives you something better to do on rounds -3 through 0, but there is a built in assumption that the monster has a way of anticipating the party and an opportunity to act in those rounds (or his spells last long enough to justify having them up all the time).
Rather than give the ogre 4 levels of wizard and make him buff himself before combat, you could give him a 4th level wizard lacky. The EL would be about the same (probably a little higher), but now both the wizard and the ogre get to take actions during combat. If wizard levels were not non-associated, the ogre with 4 levels of wizard would be a higher EL than the ogre plus a 4th level wizard. That doesn't strike me as correct - multiple opponents with a CR equal to the party's average level are generally a greater challenge than a single opponent with a CR greater than the party's average level.
I know the general rule is that losing caster levels are bad and that mixing casters with non-casters makes for a weak combination. But you have to remember the corollary to the rule that certain prestige classes are the exception (i.e. Eldritch Knight, Sacred Fist, etc.) that make for even stronger combinations. Nonassociated levels to the same thing by adding twice the power for the same cost.
Non-associated class levels don't really add twice the power because the power of a single level in a class is not worth the increase in CR for most monsters above CR 3 or 4. I think we would agree that an ogre wiz1 is not the same threat as an ogre ftr1. Is an ogre wiz2 the same threat as an ogre ftr1? I would say they're pretty close. A particular CR is a lot wider band of power than a particular class level. The non-associated classes might be marginally more powerful than the associated classes, but I don't think the difference is large. Furthermore, I think the non-associated class rules provide good rules of thumb.
What annoys me is that arcane caster levels do play to the strengths of a Mindflayer...
Jason Said - "For a class level to be associated it needs to play to the strengths of the creature. Since Mind Flayers have not spellcaster levels, additional levels do not directly add to their ability."
A Mindflayer isn't a spell caster, but it's primary attack (MindBlast) is effectively a spell, it's a spell like ability that it can use at range. It's tactics suit sitting away from melee and attacking at range, spell casting plays directly to that strength.
While say both Fighter and Socerer/Wizard level both increase it's SR. To make good use of the Fighter levels the Mindflayer would need to close to melee, meaning the increases SR would not be as useful since it opens itself to powerful melee attacks. Hence that wouldn't be associated.
But Arcane casting not only plays to the Mindflayers tactics of sitting back (and up with levitate) but also fills gaps where it's Mind Blast is lacking....
Mind Blast is a Will Save, so Clerics, Wizards and Paladin's are probably going to be okay, that is until the Sorcerer Mindflayer stuns most of the party, and is then free to concentrate his lightening bolts and Scorching Rays on the few none stunned characters.
Also it's not like the Doppleganger where it can only use one of the classes abilities at the time. The Mindblast directly stacks with arcane casting, you mindblast and it's effect last for several rounds, during which time you are free to use your arcane spells that require Reflex saves against those folks that have decent Will Saves.
A Mindflayer with access to 3rd level spells isn't just going to Mindblast every turn. It will make good use of it's class abilities like this one does in the adventure, using Resist Energy, Mirror Image and other defensive spells so even when you use stuff that avoids SR it is immune.
Doesn't play to it's strengths who are you kidding?
The CR of the Mindflayer should have been 15, but then perhaps have the XP award reduced because it was forshadowed.